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1992 stock Refurbishment?

100andthirty

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Determining coasting points for each inter-station run is not particularly hard if you've got access to an engineering level train performance simulation model which London Underground has had in place for over 30 years - updated as computing advances of course. The process is something like this:
1) calculate the shortest possible run time between each station pair taking into account line speed, speed limits and gradients.
2) Determine by how much you want to extend the run time by coasting - the rule of thimb used to be 8 seconds per mile.
3) Redo the first calculation which might involve a little iteration to identify the best speed to initiate coasting.

Step 1) is always done anyway, so adding steps 2) and 3) is not a burden.

The notion of having a simple speed control was applied to D stock. This was, in fact slightly more complex to optimise than the regular coasting calculation as a single pair of speeds had to be found that approximated to 8-sec/mile across all the different inter-station sections. In the end two speed pairs were chosen, one for in town where speeds are low and the other out of town where speeds are higher. If trains were running late, coasting cold be cut out using a switch which displayed a green/white striped flag in the offside front windscreen.

The intent of coasting was to save energy for trains running to time by 'using up' the make up allowance provided in LU's working timetables. For automatic trains this only really works if the ATO system can control whether to coast or not on a train by train, section by section basis. The only line where this level of sophisitcation has been implemented is the Victoria line.
 
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xtmw

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CLIP in the Evening Standard recently:








I'm not familiar with the Central Line trains/signalling, but I'd imagine the simplest way to do coasting is to use the train speed?
E.g. if the line speed was 85 km/h, coasting would activate at 85 km/h, and would deactivate at 80 km/h, where the train would re-accelerate back to 85 km/h and the cycle repeats.
No need for any complicated mathematical model.
IIRC this is exactly how it's done.

Once it's reached it's minimum coasting speed, it'll just accelerate to the code it's picked up
 

danielnez1

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Seghill
Are you referring to “Stretch 30” (I think it was)? It wasn’t to secure orders, it was to deal with a cashflow crisis.
That is it. Looking up the term there are even academic papers in business management about what Alstom did.
 

notverydeep

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9 Feb 2014
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Determining coasting points for each inter-station run is not particularly hard if you've got access to an engineering level train performance simulation model which London Underground has had in place for over 30 years - updated as computing advances of course. The process is something like this:
1) calculate the shortest possible run time between each station pair taking into account line speed, speed limits and gradients.
2) Determine by how much you want to extend the run time by coasting - the rule of thumb used to be 8 seconds per mile.
3) Redo the first calculation which might involve a little iteration to identify the best speed to initiate coasting.

Step 1) is always done anyway, so adding steps 2) and 3) is not a burden.

The intent of coasting was to save energy for trains running to time by 'using up' the make up allowance provided in LU's working timetables. For automatic trains this only really works if the ATO system can control whether to coast or not on a train by train, section by section basis. The only line where this level of sophistication has been implemented is the Victoria line.
The choice of how much coasting to implement and where will benefit from evaluation of the trade offs involved. As you say, coasting would ideally use up the recovery allowance. However, recovery is often most effective approaching a terminus or simply in the layover itself. this is both because this is usually one of the least busy links of the journey out from the centre and because the time can act as recovery from a perturbation that occurs anywhere on the trip prior to that point, where recovery placed earlier in the trip is used up simply by holding the train to time. With a high frequency and a very limited number of terminus berths, the Victoria line has no option but to include the recovery time within the station to station link times and the time with coasting is therefore the default run time (with 'intermediate' coasting on some of the busier links during peak times), though the recovery allowed above this is still predominantly towards the trip ends.

Where any coasting applied is compulsory (at least at times / locations where it is switched on), how much coasting is a trade off. The benefit of coasting is that it saves energy and may save maintenance wear and tear (by giving the train motors an easier life), it may also mitigate heat gain in tunnels. However it also extends customer journey times and will requiring more trains and train drivers to provide the same level of service or will require a lower frequency if these are not available. Additional trains and drivers will add directly to the cost of operation and in my experience drivers cost a fair bit more per train km than traction power. Extending customer journey time and potentially decreasing the frequency will make the service less attractive, which will mean that fewer customer journeys are made and revenue will be lower. Coasting can easily become a higher cost / lower revenue 'all lose' option.

The idea that coasting reduces the number of passengers is often dismissed as 'its only a few seconds', but seconds do matter to people. Think about these few questions and answer them honestly to yourself: Have you ever pressed the door close button in a lift? Have you* ever pressed the button at a Pelican Crossing even though the wait indication is already illuminated (perhaps several times)? Do you drive at 75 mph on motorways even though this is above the speed limit? If you do any of these, you are revealing that you do value the seconds that they will save you and that you take actions that you hope will increase the chances of saving seconds when they might not even save any. The extra seconds of coasting add up and a journey that takes a minute or more longer each way will be noticed (with a longer average wait if the service has been reduced to accommodate the extra round trip time) and will cause some passengers to make fewer trips. Fewer journeys will also impact the reduce the wider economic benefits provided by the service, as discretionary (leisure) trips are more sensitive to any extension to journey time.

*you in this context is the reader, not you specifically @100andthirty!
 

Geogregor

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The idea that coasting reduces the number of passengers is often dismissed as 'its only a few seconds', but seconds do matter to people.

The extra seconds of coasting add up and a journey that takes a minute or more longer each way will be noticed (with a longer average wait if the service has been reduced to accommodate the extra round trip time) and will cause some passengers to make fewer trips.

No, neither me nor vast majority of travelers (something like 99%) won't notice that their journey from, let say, Marble Arch to Chancery Line takes 48.3 seconds more.

Sure if you increase that journey by a 5 or 10 minutes then people will notice but not if we are talking about single minutes.
 

notverydeep

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No, neither me nor vast majority of travelers (something like 99%) won't notice that their journey from, let say, Marble Arch to Chancery Line takes 48.3 seconds more.

Sure if you increase that journey by a 5 or 10 minutes then people will notice but not if we are talking about single minutes.
Perhaps 'notice' isn't quite the correct word, but we do observe that revealed passenger behaviour does change, even reacting to small changes in journey time. 48 seconds added to the Marble Arch to Chancery Lane would be considered quite a significant worsening of the journey time. Using the normal parameters to evaluate this from TfL's Business Case Development Manual (BCDM), it would imply an annual revenue impact of just over £1.4 million assuming the impact were evenly divided across the five Eastbound links, because of passengers making fewer trips.

It is important to note that not everyone reacts the same way, some passengers are more sensitive to journey time change (just as some people are more bothered by crowding), particularly for leisure journeys where they could go to other destinations or not travel, others have less choice - for example where the route remains their best route to their work place. Trip frequency will depend on other factors such as how quickly they can access the service, those close to the station might be less concerned about any slight increase in journey time, but if you have a 20 minute walk to the station anyway and the journey seems to be longer still than previously you may well go to a local restaurant more regularly and to a Central London venue less frequently.

Even small improvements do generate additional journeys and worsening does soon show in reduced passenger traffic. Over the whole 'market' seconds do make a difference, just as a 1p increase in the cost of a bar of chocolate will impact the sales of that chocolate bar. If passengers did not respond to small improvements in journey time, no transport undertaking would make any investments that made any improvement to make trains faster or more frequent (or make small improvements to the road network). A colleague used an analogy to illustrate the impact of accumulation of marginal gains to new transport planners. He compared the 1958 Mercedes Saloon with the Trabant introduced in East Germany. Over the years the Mercedes received small incremental improvements until by re-unification it was a hugely changed and updated car. Yet the leaders of East Germany could never see the point of a better Trabant (though engineers had created numerous prototypes with improvements) and so the 1989 model was very similar to the 1958 model!

It comes back to these basic variations on the same question: do you (again the reader in general, not you specifically @Geogregor) run or walk faster to catch an Underground train? Do you walk or even run up escalators? Do you choose your spot on the platform for the exit when you alight? Have you ever 'tutted' when a train you are on slows for a signal stop or speed restriction? Do you overtake a car travelling 50 mph so you can go 60 mph on a single carriageway cross country road? Even if you do none of these things, many people can be observed doing them every day, revealing that they do value the small amounts of time they might save - even though some of them do not guarantee a saving - you can run for a train, but miss it, you can overtake the slightly slower car only for it to be directly behind you in the queue at the next roundabout!
 

bramling

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No, neither me nor vast majority of travelers (something like 99%) won't notice that their journey from, let say, Marble Arch to Chancery Line takes 48.3 seconds more.

Sure if you increase that journey by a 5 or 10 minutes then people will notice but not if we are talking about single minutes.

People will notice if the extra time has consequences, for example it could make the difference between catching or missing a connecting train. If that connection happens to be a mainline train with a low frequency then suddenly the extra minute has become potentially an hour or more.
 

Goldfish62

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People will notice if the extra time has consequences, for example it could make the difference between catching or missing a connecting train. If that connection happens to be a mainline train with a low frequency then suddenly the extra minute has become potentially an hour or more.
If someone catches a tube with such a tight margin to catch a connecting mainline train I'd suggest they're going to assume they're going to miss their connecting anyway. They are simply not going to notice whether they could have arrived 48 seconds earlier.
 

bramling

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If someone catches a tube with such a tight margin to catch a connecting mainline train I'd suggest they're going to assume they're going to miss their connecting anyway. They are simply not going to notice whether they could have arrived 48 seconds earlier.

In a perfect world perhaps, but in this one things happen and people end up with tighter margins than they’d ideally like. I certainly notice if the train is hanging around.
 

LUYMun

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If someone catches a tube with such a tight margin to catch a connecting mainline train I'd suggest they're going to assume they're going to miss their connecting anyway. They are simply not going to notice whether they could have arrived 48 seconds earlier.
Meanwhile, a Victoria line train turns up every 100 seconds. A passenger changing trains at Oxford Circus could miss their Victoria line train in that 50 seconds, and thereon miss a potential mainline connection elsewhere.
 

Central

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Used to have coasting spots on Victoria Line under the original signalling system on the downhill sections Walthamstow-Blackhorse Rd,Highbury-Kings Cross,Green Pk-Victoria,Stockwell-Brixton,Oxford Circus-Warren St and Finsbury Pk-Seven Sisters.Didn’t cause any late running.
 

Nym

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Used to have coasting spots on Victoria Line under the original signalling system on the downhill sections Walthamstow-Blackhorse Rd,Highbury-Kings Cross,Green Pk-Victoria,Stockwell-Brixton,Oxford Circus-Warren St and Finsbury Pk-Seven Sisters.Didn’t cause any late running.
That would be because it was included in the timetable, and indeed included within the signalling system!
 

Central

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Even with the coasting spots Highbury-King’s Cross and Finsbury Pk-Seven Sisters the 47.5 speed check brake always operated.

The service today isn’t that more intense than in 67TS days,train every 100 seconds today,every 120 seconds between Brixton and Seven Sisters then.
 

notverydeep

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The second completed CLIP train (though the fourth in the programme after the two prototypes) has re-entered passenger service on Train 171 from Hainault to Woodford at around 11:20 this morning. It is likely to do one or two return trips on this diagram only today. Further passenger workings will likely be after the Christmas and New Year period. It is formed of 91093 which led from Hainault, 93026 93206 (not sure which way round) and 91109...
 

xtmw

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nd completed CLIP train (though the fourth in the programme after the two prototypes) has re-entered passenger service on Train 171 from Hainault to Woodford at around 11:20 this morning. It is likely to do one or two return trips on this diagram only today. Further passenger workings will likely be after the Christmas and New Year period. It is formed of 91093 which led from Hainault, 93026 93206 (not sure which way round) and 91109...
It was T200 today
 

notverydeep

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It was T200 today
I was planning to go, but had other things to finish. It seemed to show up as 171 for two trips to Woodford on live data. Did it then get reformed to 200, or was it actually running as that in practice?
 

xtmw

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It's been running as 200 for the past few days and AFAIK this hasn't changed
 
Last edited:

Bigchris

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you can have a look on intertube for trains running at the moment (in case you didn’t know already). It seems like the 2nd CLIP train isn’t running as of right now.

https://intertube.eta.st/line/C - and click ‘find trains by leading car number’
I haven't seen the 1st CLIP set (91001+92054+92176+91201) out working for quite a long time, and not even seen it parked at Ruislip depot since the end of October so I'm guessing it's back inside for some further work.

Can anybody confirm the car numbers for the 2nd set?

Cheers, Chris
 

notverydeep

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I haven't seen the 1st CLIP set (91001+92054+92176+91201) out working for quite a long time, and not even seen it parked at Ruislip depot since the end of October so I'm guessing it's back inside for some further work.

Can anybody confirm the car numbers for the 2nd set?

Cheers, Chris
91093 93026 93206 (not sure which way round) 91109...
 

simple simon

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Thanks for the replies, now I've had the numbers confirmed (that would have been my next question!) I can look on intertube

--------------------

You might have a bit more luck asking in 2035.
In 2035 I'll be looking for the unrefurbished trains! :lol: At the rate they are progressing I have confidence that there will still be some!!
 

notverydeep

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That awesome thanks very much, 4 of my last 6 sets on it, I'll keep my eyes peeled :D
The train is out working today on additional train 142. Currently Eastbound for Hainault via Woodford from Ruislip Gardens and has just departed White City.
 

Bigchris

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The train is out working today on additional train 142. Currently Eastbound for Hainault via Woodford from Ruislip Gardens and has just departed White City.
Ah right, very good to know thank you. Unfortunately I'm at home this week but I'll be back down at Ruislip next week so I'll keep an eye out. I missed it on Intertube whilst it was out running (it shows up on past workings) so assume it is now at Hainault.
 

Dstock7080

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Paths available next week for additional T141 and T142 running between Ruislip and Hainault depots in service, no guarantee they will both run.
 

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