How are you all coping with the £3 cap?

[KT550]

My 15 minute local journey would have been £6 return paid on the bus.

It was cheaper to buy a one stop rail ticket and plus bus with a railcard discount (£1.55 + £2.70).

 

[Hyebone]

My kids both take a local bus to school and it's a short journey of about 10 minutes. According to the Stagecoach website the cost should be £2.50 each way, however the drivers all refuse to sell that fare saying that the machine only lets them issue £3 flat fare. I've messaged Stagecoach but no answer. What should I do?

Stagecoach's VIX machines do indeed have the capability to set the fare stage. Whether or not the fare stages have been properly calculated within the machine is another thing.

Where have you tried to contact them? It might be worth replying to a post on twitter/X, (depending on the OpCo, I know Yorkshire generally reply within a few hours)

 

[Teapot42]

Yeah but you're looking at one specific financial area.

They may have lower personal taxation but an overall higher tax take when you factor in taxation away from income tax. Perhaps in areas such as inheritance tax (and thresholds). What about average earnings - are they much lower?

Also, what about expenditure... how is health care structured? How much do they spend on defence - are they meeting the recommended NATO figure? What sort of welfare state do they have?

Taking one financial measure is meaningless out of context.

Taxation lower overall, not just personal. Health provision is excellent. Average earnings are about half, which will of course make it cheaper to run the buses, but not explain just how much cheaper they are to use.

They aren't part of NATO (or the UN, thanks partly to us) but defence spending is considerable, quite a lot in terms of what is basically protection money paid to the US.

This is all missing the point I'm making that good provision that people actually want to use will result in considerably lower fares. Our cap isn't getting people out of cars and on to buses in any significant numbers. It isn't rendering it unnecessary to have a car for anyone. It's keeping it vaguely affordable for those who have no option and keeping some semblance of a service running.

 

[Haywain]

Our cap isn't getting people out of cars and on to buses in any significant numbers. It isn't rendering it unnecessary to have a car for anyone.

This is an area where the bigger picture is relevant - the cost of motoring in the UK is reducing year on year because of the freeze on fuel duty. It's not just the price of a bus fare, but the costs of the alternative alongside the convenience factor. If the fuel duty escalator had been unfrozen in the budget, it could easily have financed a continuation of the £2 fare cap but we are in the UK where the motoring lobby is much more powerful than the public transport lobby.

 

[Teapot42]

This is an area where the bigger picture is relevant - the cost of motoring in the UK is reducing year on year because of the freeze on fuel duty. It's not just the price of a bus fare, but the costs of the alternative alongside the convenience factor. If the fuel duty escalator had been unfrozen in the budget, it could easily have financed a continuation of the £2 fare cap but we are in the UK where the motoring lobby is much more powerful than the public transport lobby.

Again, in the country in question motoring is much cheaper in the UK, mainly as fuel is around 60% of price we pay here.

However, I firmly believe that most British people don't fully appreciate the costs of running a car which is another reason why we don't consider using public transport as much. I'm as guilty as anyone of working out the distance, multiplying the number of miles by 10 or 15p and forgetting insurance, servicing, vehicle cost, etc, etc.

 

[mangad]

However, I firmly believe that most British people don't fully appreciate the costs of running a car which is another reason why we don't consider using public transport as much. I'm as guilty as anyone of working out the distance, multiplying the number of miles by 10 or 15p and forgetting insurance, servicing, vehicle cost, etc, etc.

When I lived in London and was car free, I used to have conversations with people from outside the capital who were amazed by the cost of my annual Travelcard. But when you actually compare it to the costs of owning a car that doesn't even do anything, and factor in depreciation in the value of the vehicle as well, the annual cost of owning a car is huge. My current car's lost about £12,000 in value over the nine years I've had it.

But the trouble is, a lot of people will need some vehicle because the public transport doesn't cover their full needs. So you accept that base cost. And that's is always going to make public transport feel dearer. Then you add in free or cheap parking, group travel and so on... I could take my children to the swimming pool by bus and it would cost us £8 return. Or I could drive them for less than a quid because I've already done that big sunk cost. It's no surprise people don't use public transport.

 

[duncombec]

They aren't part of NATO (or the UN, thanks partly to us) but defence spending is considerable, quite a lot in terms of what is basically protection money paid to the US.

Again, in the country in question motoring is much cheaper in the UK, mainly as fuel is around 60% of price we pay here.

The number of independent countries that aren't UN members is vanishingly small, and of those likely to be covered by NATO even smaller... It seems to apply to just Kosovo and the Vatican! Perhaps it would be helpful to the discussion if you named the location, rather than cryptic statements?

 

[Teapot42]

The number of independent countries that aren't UN members is vanishingly small, and of those likely to be covered by NATO even smaller... It seems to apply to just Kosovo and the Vatican! Perhaps it would be helpful to the discussion if you named the location, rather than cryptic statements?

Taiwan (Republic of China) were actually founder members of the UN. We conspired to get them kicked out when we thought trading with the PRC would be more advantageous. I did say they aren't part of NATO, possibly you mis-read that.

But the trouble is, a lot of people will need some vehicle because the public transport doesn't cover their full needs. So you accept that base cost. And that's is always going to make public transport feel dearer. Then you add in free or cheap parking, group travel and so on... I could take my children to the swimming pool by bus and it would cost us £8 return. Or I could drive them for less than a quid because I've already done that big sunk cost. It's no surprise people don't use public transport.

That's really my argument. Transport provision has dropped to the point where it doesn't meet the needs of anyone, particularly those outside London, which leads to the acceptance of that base cost.

Unfortunately the only way that is going to change is with a significant government subsidy to cover the inevitable losses until enough modal shift occurs for the system to pay for itself again.

When you say things like that people always argue that we are past the point where that could happen, parking is too cheap, etc, etc. Parking in the centre of Taipei is about 50p an hour. Fuel is just over 70p/l, the roads are in far better condition and aren't as congested, but people still use public transport in vast numbers because the provision is just so good and it's so cheap.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Taxation lower overall, not just personal. Health provision is excellent. Average earnings are about half, which will of course make it cheaper to run the buses, but not explain just how much cheaper they are to use.

They aren't part of NATO (or the UN, thanks partly to us) but defence spending is considerable, quite a lot in terms of what is basically protection money paid to the US.

This is all missing the point I'm making that good provision that people actually want to use will result in considerably lower fares. Our cap isn't getting people out of cars and on to buses in any significant numbers. It isn't rendering it unnecessary to have a car for anyone. It's keeping it vaguely affordable for those who have no option and keeping some semblance of a service running.

I don't know of a single European country that has cracked the conundrum whereby good provision is not underpinned by substantial subsidies with fares being supported either direct subsidy or indirectly (as you suggest). The cost of creating a model where a car is optional is extremely expensive even in the major cities, and certainly not in the provinces.

Our cap isn't promoting modal shift but not because it isn't cheap (which is the point of the price cap). The cost of motoring has become progressively cheaper but we have other major considerations such as planning regs, road space provision etc. Even with pensioners who get free travel, bus usage is still patchy.

Not certain that Taiwan is a direct comparator to the UK...

 

[JamesT]

The cost of motoring has become progressively cheaper

Except it hasn't. The fuel escalator may have been dropped, but that's only one aspect of motoring costs.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/cost-of-motoring-index compares various costs with RPI. The overall cost mostly tracks RPI, though has been slightly higher for the last 4 years.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I don't know of a single European country that has cracked the conundrum whereby good provision is not underpinned by substantial subsidies with fares being supported either direct subsidy or indirectly (as you suggest). The cost of creating a model where a car is optional is extremely expensive even in the major cities, and certainly not in the provinces.

Our cap isn't promoting modal shift but not because it isn't cheap (which is the point of the price cap). The cost of motoring has become progressively cheaper but we have other major considerations such as planning regs, road space provision etc. Even with pensioners who get free travel, bus usage is still patchy.

Not certain that Taiwan is a direct comparator to the UK...

Public transport can inevitably be provided more efficiently in areas with higher population density. Taiwan has more than double the population density of the UK. In fact, most of the "this country does it better than the UK" examples have a higher population density than the UK. Strange, eh?

 

[Teapot42]

I don't know of a single European country that has cracked the conundrum whereby good provision is not underpinned by substantial subsidies with fares being supported either direct subsidy or indirectly (as you suggest). The cost of creating a model where a car is optional is extremely expensive even in the major cities, and certainly not in the provinces.

Our cap isn't promoting modal shift but not because it isn't cheap (which is the point of the price cap). The cost of motoring has become progressively cheaper but we have other major considerations such as planning regs, road space provision etc. Even with pensioners who get free travel, bus usage is still patchy.

Not certain that Taiwan is a direct comparator to the UK...

I wonder if there are figures available which show whether the direct taxes motorists pay cover the cost of the roads, or if there is an element of subsidy from general taxation. We have also got in to a situation where we expect to be able to use the public road to store our vehicles in most cases, which in turn leads to things like increased congestion, restricted access and so on.

I should mention we also visited Kyoto on our journey, and while the fares there aren't as cheap as in Taiwan they are still much cheaper than the UK, with services much more frequent. Buses are around £1.15 a journey, with trains actually cheaper for short (1-2 stop) trips. Population density is lower there than in Taiwan and the average wage isn't far off the UK.

I think I'd agree that Taiwan isn't a direct comparator to the UK, I'm struggling to think of one thing we do better. About all I can come up with are pavements - most roads there don't have a proper pavement so it's less accessible.

Public transport can inevitably be provided more efficiently in areas with higher population density. Taiwan has more than double the population density of the UK. In fact, most of the "this country does it better than the UK" examples have a higher population density than the UK. Strange, eh?

Taiwan has some pretty challenging geography, and the high population density can make building things like railways and MRTs challenging and expensive. Yet the Taipei MRT network is constantly expanding. Earthquakes can cause issues with road damage etc, yet they are in much better condition than ours.

I feel a lot more is about attitude - they look for solutions, we look for problems.

 

[ChrisC]

Stagecoach's VIX machines do indeed have the capability to set the fare stage. Whether or not the fare stages have been properly calculated within the machine is another thing.

I’ve certainly noticed an increase in time it’s taking for people to pay using their phone on my local Stagecoach Mansfield bus route since the cap was raised to £3. The driver keeps pressing buttons on the machine but payment by phone has been declined a number of times before it was finally accepted. Passengers were spending quite a time trying to explain to the drivers exactly where they wanted to go.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Taiwan has some pretty challenging geography, and the high population density can make building things like railways and MRTs challenging and expensive. Yet the Taipei MRT network is constantly expanding. Earthquakes can cause issues with road damage etc, yet they are in much better condition than ours.

I feel a lot more is about attitude - they look for solutions, we look for problems.

About two-thirds of Taiwan is hilly/mountainous countryside. Regardless of construction challenges, it's still far easier to provide a cheap, efficient and attractive public transport system when almost your entire population is located in a relatively long, narrow, continuous strip. It's the same reason that London has a public transport network the rest of the UK can only dream of.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Except it hasn't. The fuel escalator may have been dropped, but that's only one aspect of motoring costs.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/cost-of-motoring-index compares various costs with RPI. The overall cost mostly tracks RPI, though has been slightly higher for the last 4 years.

You need to look over a longer period. Since the 1970s, whilst the cost of fuel has increased, the fuel efficiency of cars is so much better that the costs of motoring are much lower proportionately. The purchase cost of cars themselves is actually not much different but VED and insurance is actually lower in real terms - the latter surprised me.

I wonder if there are figures available which show whether the direct taxes motorists pay cover the cost of the roads, or if there is an element of subsidy from general taxation. We have also got in to a situation where we expect to be able to use the public road to store our vehicles in most cases, which in turn leads to things like increased congestion, restricted access and so on.

Apparently, the government obtains about £33bn in fuel duty and VED annually and spends about £6-7bn on roads.

I do have a particular issue with roadside parking but I digress.

I feel a lot more is about attitude - they look for solutions, we look for problems.

That is certainly one difference but then again, there are many other cultural differences. At the end of the day, in the UK, we have traditionally voted for things like NHS and welfare

 

[DDB]

My kids both take a local bus to school and it's a short journey of about 10 minutes. According to the Stagecoach website the cost should be £2.50 each way, however the drivers all refuse to sell that fare saying that the machine only lets them issue £3 flat fare. I've messaged Stagecoach but no answer. What should I do?

A call to your local Trading Standards department? This must be false advertising or some other offence.

 

[JD2168]

It has.

They have also scrapped the £5 (local) Day Rider ticket. Cheapest is now £6.50 (but it covers a wider area).

A bit sneaky this from Stagecoach who have removed the Barnsley/Rotherham Day Rider so passengers have to use the more expensive Silver.
A CityBus day ticket is now £5.90, only 20p more expensive than a FirstDay Sheffield for more services & operators.

Most fares have increased in Sheffield, some by the full £1 for shorter journeys

 

[Falcon1200]

According to the Stagecoach website the cost should be £2.50 each way, however the drivers all refuse to sell that fare saying that the machine only lets them issue £3 flat fare.

The journey I make most often with Stagecoach Oxford, which was £2 with the cap, was charged at £2.50 when I used it last week, so they can charge less than £3 (if they want to...)

 

[ChrisC]

A bit sneaky this from Stagecoach who have removed the Barnsley/Rotherham Day Rider so passengers have to use the more expensive Silver.
A CityBus day ticket is now £5.90, only 20p more expensive than a FirstDay Sheffield for more services & operators.

Most fares have increased in Sheffield, some by the full £1 for shorter journeys

Stagecoach Yorkshire seem to have removed all of the local Day Rider tickets as the Sheffield, Doncaster and Chesterfield tickets have also been removed. The cheapest Day Rider ticket now available is the Silver costing £6.50. Anyone needing to travel outside of the Silver ticket zone has to buy the Gold ticket which is now £9.50. Fortunately neighbouring Stagecoach East Midlands still has cheaper local day tickets for Mansfield, Worksop etc but nothing under £9.50 if you travel outside those local zones. Therefore if just making one return journey the £3 fares work out cheaper.

 

[py_megapixel]

Stagecoach Yorkshire seem to have removed all of the local Day Rider tickets as the Sheffield, Doncaster and Chesterfield tickets have also been removed. The cheapest Day Rider ticket now available is the Silver costing £6.50.

For Sheffield the most sensible replacement is the all-operator ticket for I believe just over £5. Operator-restricted tickets don't make much sense in Sheffield anyway because the network is very fragmented (on most major corridors it's essentially pot luck whose bus will turn up first). And in the case of day tickets, the operator-restricted version is generally only a few pence cheaper anyway.

Does Stagecoach actually serve Doncaster? Thought it was almost a First monopoly there

 

[Teapot42]

For Sheffield the most sensible replacement is the all-operator ticket for I believe just over £5. Operator-restricted tickets don't make much sense in Sheffield anyway because the network is very fragmented (on most major corridors it's essentially pot luck whose bus will turn up first).

This is the biggest dis-service Derbyshire County Council did when they forced Chesterfield out of the Sheffield City Region. There is considerable cross-border traffic flow, but very few ticket options. If you work where Stagecoach serves in Sheffield it's viable at the moment, even if less so since we lost access to the tram. After franchising, who knows how poor the ticket situation will be - certainly not SYMCA as they can't even give an answer when you ask the question of what they are planning.

Apparently, the government obtains about £33bn in fuel duty and VED annually and spends about £6-7bn on roads.

The fact the spend is so little may tell you something! But of course there is also spending related to policing, medical care and so on related to road usage.

I do have a particular issue with roadside parking but I digress.

I'm a big fan of the Japanese system of having to prove you have space to park a car before being allowed one. But there are other issues, mainly lack of parking provision and overcharging meaning people seek out free roadside parking instead. It's OT here, but very much on topic for buses as there are many cases where services can't get through due to bad parking. Hulleys in particular seem to have had a spate of late with delays or partial cancellations due to badly parked cars blocking their buses.

That is certainly one difference but then again, there are many other cultural differences. At the end of the day, in the UK, we have traditionally voted for things like NHS and welfare

Believe me, Taiwanese health care puts the NHS to shame. They do spend less on welfare and you are right, it's mostly cultural, as families tend to live together or at least be more supportive.

 

[ChrisC]

Does Stagecoach actually serve Doncaster? Thought it was almost a First monopoly there

Stagecoach run quite a few routes around Doncaster. Stagecoach Yorkshire have services towards Rotherham and Barnsley. Stagecoach East Midlands run a number of cross border services into Nottinghamshire and even into Lincolnshire.

 

[Teapot42]

Where have you tried to contact them? It might be worth replying to a post on twitter/X, (depending on the OpCo, I know Yorkshire generally reply within a few hours)

Yorkshire might reply within a few hours, but the reply you get will be cut and paste from a script, and if the say they'll contact the depot to look in to it then you know you'll never hear about it again.

I think I'd prefer them to not reply at all rather than pretend to be interested then not actually do anything.

 

[JD2168]

Does Stagecoach actually serve Doncaster? Thought it was almost a First monopoly there

Stagecoach run the following in Doncaster:
21 - Doncaster to Worksop
22 - Doncaster to Worksop
25 - Doncaster to Worksop
29 - Doncaster to Retford
98 - Doncaster to Gainsborough
99 - Doncaster to Retford
219/219a - Doncaster to Barnsley
221 - Doncaster to Rotherham
399 - Doncaster to Scunthorpe on Saturday only
X19 - Doncaster to Barnsley
They also run a number of Doncaster New College contracts

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach run the following in Doncaster:
21 - Doncaster to Worksop
22 - Doncaster to Worksop
25 - Doncaster to Worksop
29 - Doncaster to Retford
98 - Doncaster to Gainsborough
99 - Doncaster to Retford
219/219a - Doncaster to Barnsley
221 - Doncaster to Rotherham
399 - Doncaster to Scunthorpe on Saturday only
X19 - Doncaster to Barnsley
They also run a number of Doncaster New College contracts

And the 203. The X19 and 2** services were the bedrock of the operations that were Yorkshire Traction’s Doncaster depot on Milethorn Lane, closed by Stagecoach c.2008/9?

 

[820KDV]

Just a further update from my area, where we had a BSIP Forum meeting today and the impact of the revised fare cap was on the agenda, to see how it is affecting passenger numbers.

Of those present, two are subsidiaries of the big groups and one is a sizeable independent. All three had expected a lot of criticism, so embarked on awareness campaigns ahead of the change. All used social media, most used on bus notices and one added a note to every ticket issued during December. All wanted to emphasise that £3 is the maximum you'll pay for a single journey and that all have plenty of urban journeys under the cap. As a largely rural area they feel that the £3 cap is still a good selling point for longer journeys, and all were critical of the media portraying it as a £3 flat fare.

All three said that the expected complaints haven't arisen, but all have seen an increase in fare enquiries. One said that they use those contacts to explain their various multi-journey tickets, as well as giving the single fare price. None of them felt that passenger numbers had declined due to the cap, but said that it is still early days, and the weather hasn't been great recently flattening demand regardless of price. The independent operator said that any comparison is difficult as they have seen significant passenger growth during the £2 fare cap period, which they put down to (in no particular order) a mix of enhanced service levels, 10 brand new buses joining the fleet, the re-flagging in their corporate style the bus stops of all their commercial routes, having a very responsive social media team and the fare cap.

So, not a gloomy outlook where I am, at least not yet.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Here in Gloucester it's £3 for a single from Gloucester to Cheltenham or Stroud (or possibly even Cheltenham to Oxford on the S2). Which I think given the distance is still relatively good value for money.

However, it's the local journeys that are suffering. My journey, 6 stops from the city centre and only an mile away down a main road is now £2.80, which I absolutely refuse to pay unless I've done a 12 hour shift, it's hammering down with rain, I'm in a rush or I've been shopping. And the buses are not as full as they used to be; I think they're only filled with the weekly season ticket holders or the oldies.

 

[rg177]

Arriva and Go North East appear to have gone back to their old ways of fare competition on the Coast Road corridor (306/307/308/309).

Go North East are very much charging the full £2.50 (as is the cap here) with it being £2 for shorter hops. The maximum fare on Arriva I've seen being charged is £2.30 with it being £1.60 for shorter journeys (which are still a good few miles in some cases). It looks like £2.50 only kicks in if you're genuinely going most of the way to the coast.

It's worth adding that pre-cap, Go North East were charging as high as £3.20 single for my usual journey while Arriva were £2.20. The former then introduced their own local cap of £1.70 in 2021 which went up in increments before eventually hitting £2.30 before the National fare cap.

 

[Edvid]

Within ceremonial Cambridgeshire, the cap will remain below £3 for the rest of the calendar year; £2 up to 30 June, then £2.50 until 31 December.

In the period up to full transition, the Combined Authority will continue its work to improve bus services, including the Tiger on Demand rural services, the Tiger bus pass offering £1 journeys for under 25s and maintaining the £2 cap on fares through to the end of June 2025, with a small rise to £2.50 to the end of December 2025.

 

[LordCreed]

My return has gone from £4 to £5.80 for around 2 miles each way. Prior to the cap it was £3.80.

I drive now instead as it works out cheaper given we already have the car.