Class 175 to GWR

[windjabbers]

Interesting thank you. Probably the damaged parts of 175008 and 175101 that are being dumped?

I would guess so - the damage to 008 was reported as quite extensive.

 

[Goldfish62]

Release hst sets for disposal,
Release class 158s for Cardiff to Portsmouth - in turn releasing 16X's on this route for Bristol and Devon metro's.

Surely some IETs must be released as well? They were never intended for regional services and were only transferred in as a result of most HSTs being withdrawn. Long distance services out of Paddington are desperate for them back.

 

[Snow1964]

Release hst sets for disposal,
Release class 158s for Cardiff to Portsmouth - in turn releasing 16X's on this route for Bristol and Devon metro's.

Will be 68 class 175 vehicles with GWR

Although there are few spares, these days only 3 Castle HSTs in use same time, so just 3 x 4car = 12 (ignoring power cars) replaced.

Depending on how you count it there are about seven 5car IETs (Cardiff - Exeter, and Bristol - Worcester) is 35 vehicles released

The expanded Cornwall metro needs extra 2 vehicles (winter), but ideally nearer 6 extra (summer) when trains are busier.

I am hearing a number of services in Bristol area and South West are running well above 2019 (pre-covid) levels, some lines are 120%+ (but don't have definitive numbers). So probably close to needing extra carriage added to handful of diagrams

There are about 8-10 class 158, 165, 166 vehicles semi-permanently out of use due to lack of spares. As they never seem to be able to sort the spares, might as well assume one of each class is withdrawn and needs replacing (in practice, even if refused on paper), so lets say 8 vehicles to replace these dead units.

At the moment majority of Cardiff-Portsmouth services are 3car turbos, converting all 8 diagrams to 4car 158s would require upto 8 more vehicles, or 16 if adding 2 vehicles each. But as handful run as 4 or 5car already, its nearer 12 extra vehicles to make them all 5car. (Actually GWR doesn't have enough 158s for 8 x 5car + spares, so likely to still be some turbos).

The under construction Oakhampton Interchange, is likely to mean 2 or 3 diagrams need extra coach due to busyness.

Unless my maths is dismal, 68 vehicles cannot cover all this, so clearly something is not going to get lengthened services, or some of the IETs will have to continue covering even after all the 175s are in service.

Unless anyone knows differently, after the 175s, nothing is due for GWR until 2029 or 2030 when replacement of the 15x and 16x DMUs starts, so could continue to be a stock shortfall. Even more so if services to Henbury and Portishead do well and need longer trains. No idea which services get displaced 16x DMUs

 

[D6975]

I am guessing one unit will be a reform and the unused two vehicles will be parted out for spares

There are already several misformed units. The damaged parts of 008 and 101 are already paired up (as 175008) so that is likely to be the unit not reentering service.

 

[Anonymous10]

Surely some IETs must be released as well? They were never intended for regional services and were only transferred in as a result of most HSTs being withdrawn. Long distance services out of Paddington are desperate for them back.

Yes sorry.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Depending on how you count it there are about seven 5car IETs (Cardiff - Exeter, and Bristol - Worcester) is 35 vehicles released

Cardiff-Exeter will continue to be served by IETs. That’s immediately 5-6x 5-car units off your total.

 

[The exile]

Will be 68 class 175 vehicles

Depending on how you count it there are about seven 5car IETs (Cardiff - Exeter, and Bristol - Worcester) is 35 vehicles released

Doubt those 35 need 1 for 1 replacement so more like 25 - 30 required.

 

[REVUpminster]

I don't think the 16xs will be going anywhere; still be needed Paignton- Exmouth. 158s to Bristol.

If the Newquay service is a success, and I expect it will be, then four cars will be needed. St Ives goes 4 car in the summer.

 

[Cambrian359]

out of curiosity why will it take until the end of 2026 for a full roll out of 26 trains?

 

[brad465]

out of curiosity why will it take until the end of 2026 for a full roll out of 26 trains?

I'm guessing one or combination of three reasons: firstly their time in storage means they need work done before being service-ready, second, this is an entirely unfamiliar fleet to GWR staff (particularly drivers and maintenance staff), so they'll need time to get trained up, then third, maybe they're laying out a more pessimistic timeframe to avoid apparent delays into service.

 

[The exile]

I'm guessing one or combination of three reasons: firstly their time in storage means they need work done before being service-ready, second, this is an entirely unfamiliar fleet to GWR staff (particularly drivers and maintenance staff), so they'll need time to get trained up, then third, maybe they're laying out a more pessimistic timeframe to avoid apparent delays into service.

Plus not all needed till 2026, maybe, so not taking on all leasing costs until financial year 26 - 27

 

[Snow1964]

I'm guessing one or combination of three reasons: firstly their time in storage means they need work done before being service-ready, second, this is an entirely unfamiliar fleet to GWR staff (particularly drivers and maintenance staff), so they'll need time to get trained up, then third, maybe they're laying out a more pessimistic timeframe to avoid apparent delays into service.

Can anyone remember, when GWR converted from pacers to 150s in South West, how long did the training and familiarisation take.

The 175s are being introduced into a similar area, so presumably affects similar number of staff (local and regional trains, not main line high speed crew)

Its type training on a different type of DMU, (but it's still an DMU), its not like comprehensive conversion training for something completely new and unfamiliar to everybody like introducing a battery EMU.

Regarding giving the units from storage a maintenance inspection / servicing, shouldn't take until end 2026, that would be something like 10 days per vehicle, (20-30 days per unit), it's not going to be done in some low capacity outpost like Ryde depot.

 

[irish_rail]

Can anyone remember, when GWR converted from pacers to 150s in South West, how long did the training and familiarisation take.

The 175s are being introduced into a similar area, so presumably affects similar number of staff (local and regional trains, not main line high speed crew)

Its type training on a different type of DMU, (but it's still an DMU), its not like comprehensive conversion training for something completely new and unfamiliar to everybody like introducing a battery EMU.

Regarding giving the units from storage a maintenance inspection / servicing, shouldn't take until end 2026, that would be something like 10 days per vehicle, (20-30 days per unit), it's not going to be done in some low capacity outpost like Ryde depot.

Not correct I'm afraid. I think the pacer conversion was a day or do (although it isn't something I was part of so stand to be corrected) however the 175 drivers course is I believe about 3 weeks long.

 

[Bikeman78]

Will be 68 class 175 vehicles with GWR

Although there are few spares, these days only 3 Castle HSTs in use same time, so just 3 x 4car = 12 (ignoring power cars) replaced.

Depending on how you count it there are about seven 5car IETs (Cardiff - Exeter, and Bristol - Worcester) is 35 vehicles released

The expanded Cornwall metro needs extra 2 vehicles (winter), but ideally nearer 6 extra (summer) when trains are busier.

I am hearing a number of services in Bristol area and South West are running well above 2019 (pre-covid) levels, some lines are 120%+ (but don't have definitive numbers). So probably close to needing extra carriage added to handful of diagrams

There are about 8-10 class 158, 165, 166 vehicles semi-permanently out of use due to lack of spares. As they never seem to be able to sort the spares, might as well assume one of each class is withdrawn and needs replacing (in practice, even if refused on paper), so lets say 8 vehicles to replace these dead units.

At the moment majority of Cardiff-Portsmouth services are 3car turbos, converting all 8 diagrams to 4car 158s would require upto 8 more vehicles, or 16 if adding 2 vehicles each. But as handful run as 4 or 5car already, its nearer 12 extra vehicles to make them all 5car. (Actually GWR doesn't have enough 158s for 8 x 5car + spares, so likely to still be some turbos).

The under construction Oakhampton Interchange, is likely to mean 2 or 3 diagrams need extra coach due to busyness.

Unless my maths is dismal, 68 vehicles cannot cover all this, so clearly something is not going to get lengthened services, or some of the IETs will have to continue covering even after all the 175s are in service.

Unless anyone knows differently, after the 175s, nothing is due for GWR until 2029 or 2030 when replacement of the 15x and 16x DMUs starts, so could continue to be a stock shortfall. Even more so if services to Henbury and Portishead do well and need longer trains. No idea which services get displaced 16x DMUs

The Welsh 158s will be available at some point.

 

[The exile]

Can anyone remember, when GWR converted from pacers to 150s in South West, how long did the training and familiarisation take.

The 175s are being introduced into a similar area, so presumably affects similar number of staff (local and regional trains, not main line high speed crew)

Its type training on a different type of DMU, (but it's still an DMU), its not like comprehensive conversion training for something completely new and unfamiliar to everybody like introducing a battery EMU.

Regarding giving the units from storage a maintenance inspection / servicing, shouldn't take until end 2026, that would be something like 10 days per vehicle, (20-30 days per unit), it's not going to be done in some low capacity outpost like Ryde depot.

Maybe for once a realistic schedule is being proposed - a refreshing change if so!

 

[Wyrleybart]

The Welsh 158s will be available at some point.

Agree, and I imagine TfW will diagram 158s down to just the Cambrian - Birmingham route as more 197s are delivered.
There presumably will come a point where TfW 158s probably won't ever been seen South or north of Shrewsbury until maybe dilapidation / handback exams.

 

[craigybagel]

Not correct I'm afraid. I think the pacer conversion was a day or do (although it isn't something I was part of so stand to be corrected) however the 175 drivers course is I believe about 3 weeks long.

I've never signed Pacers, I've only played around a bit with them in training, but that is certainly plausible. All the other ex-BR DMUs I've signed are pretty much the same if you look closer enough. The only thing a 175 has in common with them is that it's a DMU.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Can anyone remember, when GWR converted from pacers to 150s in South West, how long did the training and familiarisation take.

As guards I think we had a day. It was a very hands-on course as guards had much more responsibility in the good old days. I remember us having a go at isolating the air suspension, the poor unit was going up and down all afternoon.

 

[anthony263]

Looks like 175008 won't be going to GWR but is to be a source of spares. Rail magazine also suggests some class 150s might be getting withdrawn too.

 

[James Kevill]

Looks like 175008 won't be going to GWR but is to be a source of spares. Rail magazine also suggests some class 150s might be getting withdrawn too.

So will the Class 175008 be scrapped too or be repaired? But we don't know yet.

 

[windjabbers]

So will the Class 175008 be scrapped too or be repaired? But we don't know yet.

I belive that one of the DM from 008 was badly damaged in the fire. The other i think is coupled to two from set 101 and may be in better condition than one of the DM from 101.

So what may happen is one from both 008 and 101 end up been the two that are striped.

But there are a number of units that are not in there orginal formation at the moment.

BW DC

 

[D365]

There are already several misformed units. The damaged parts of 008 and 101 are already paired up (as 175008) so that is likely to be the unit not reentering service.

This is the correct answer. Where is the ’demic’ 175008 currently stored?

 

[Lurcheroo]

The Welsh 158s will be available at some point.

That is, at a minimum, over 2 years from now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That is, at a minimum, over 2 years from now.

2027 to get the Cambrian 197s in place?! That is utterly disgraceful.

 

[D365]

2027 to get the Cambrian 197s in place?! That is utterly disgraceful.

it serves to demonstrate the engineering and operational difficulties that are faced when introducing ’new’ ETCS equipped rolling stock in the United Kingdom.

 

[brad465]

Are there any disclosable plans/interest from GWR stating they hope to acquire the TfW 158s once they're available, or is the talk on here just because it's a logical stopgap move for them while GWR gets Churchward through the production line?

 

[Snow1964]

it serves to demonstrate the engineering and operational difficulties that are faced when introducing ’new’ ETCS equipped rolling stock in the United Kingdom.

ETCS is supposed to be a standard system, and all recent designs are allegedly specified to allow retrospective fitting.

Shouldn't really be any engineering problems if it was specified to add the modules. What is more likely is the retro legacy equipment (AWS etc) is touchy feely when switched on alongside.

The way it was described to me was works well, but overlaying the old stuff and having both turned on at same time can be a problem. As same equipment seems to work happily in a number of European countries I suspect it sounds like the old UK equipment, not the new standard equipment that creates the problem.

So would it be better to have 100% switched over to ETCS during the 2 week Cambrian closure, and having signalling changeover points in same way you have electrical changeover places whilst stationary like Farringdon. Full changeover one turned off, not running together.

 

[Towers]

Are there any disclosable plans/interest from GWR stating they hope to acquire the TfW 158s once they're available, or is the talk on here just because it's a logical stopgap move for them while GWR gets Churchward through the production line?

Any onward lease arrangements are highly unlikely to enter the public domain just yet I would think; there may be ‘behind the scenes’ discussions or expressions of interest, but I’d be surprised if they were disclosed any time soon!

 

[RPI]

Looks like 175008 won't be going to GWR but is to be a source of spares. Rail magazine also suggests some class 150s might be getting withdrawn too.

The 150's are all going through another C6 so not likely any will be withdrawn for a while.

 

[Lurcheroo]

2027 to get the Cambrian 197s in place?! That is utterly disgraceful.

Not quite, It was said “September 2025, sooner if CAF can deliver the units”. It now seems like they’re looking at early next year. The lease on the 158’s has been extended by 2 years and they will need all the ERTMS equipment removing before they go to any other operator.