Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[Horizon22]

Yes there was one point where every single through platform was blocked, as platforms 1, 2, 3 and 8 were blocked due to abandoned GTR trains, 4 had a GA train that was meant to terminate in platform 2/3 and another GA train terminated from the north in platform 7 (booked 8). This delayed a few trains by quite a bit and the signaller probably didn't want that to happen again

It’s very standard fare these days by signallers; they’re acutely aware of the risk of stranded trains (as many TOCs are too) and only will start to signal trains once things are confirmed to depart. This relies on good (or at least acceptable) comms between signallers / NR control / TOC control. Where things like this happen, there tend to be issues with this and/or trust in service recovery from one party at least.

Some really wouldn’t believe me. I personally couldn’t be like that but I know so many that couldn’t care less.

You have to remember that such moves are not always quick and if no safe walking route back can take a very long time. It all depends on the location.

Trains should still not be left on a running line without a driver if stranding other trains and blocking forward movement. Of course this might be a relieving point but still almost every driver has the decency to a) remain with stock or b) terminate and ECS somewhere appropriate. Of course there’s lots of ifs and buts and caveats with option b) regarding diagramming / stabling points / crew availability and awareness but it will certainly get pushed into high priority if no available driver at a through location.

 

[dk1]

It’s very standard fare these days by signallers; they’re acutely aware of the risk of stranded trains (as many TOCs are too) and only will start to signal trains once things are confirmed to depart. This relies on good (or at least acceptable) comms between signallers / NR control / TOC control. Where things like this happen, there tend to be issues with this and/or trust in service recovery from one party at least.



Trains should still not be left on a running line without a driver if stranding other trains and blocking forward movement. Of course this might be a relieving point but still almost every driver has the decency to a) remain with stock or b) terminate and ECS somewhere appropriate. Of course there’s lots of ifs and buts and caveats with option b) regarding diagramming / stabling points / crew availability and awareness but it will certainly get pushed into high priority if no available driver at a through location.

If on a remote running line yes but certainly not blocking a platform somewhere like Cambridge station. If it’s the end of the shift or like i say at the time of a long overdue pnb and/or not showing on that drivers diagram then they would have every right to walk away.

 

[Magdalia]

The platforms at Cambridge were littered with abandoned GN/Thameslink trains, reducing capacity and adding delays to other services. Is it possible that there were other GN services supposed to terminate at Cambridge but were in fact being held outside the station due to the lack of capacity

Yes there was one point where every single through platform was blocked, as platforms 1, 2, 3 and 8 were blocked due to abandoned GTR trains

This isn't anything new. It is a consequence of the location of and accessibility to/from the carriage sidings at Cambridge.

The simplest move is to the north sidings but it is a long walk back, at least half a mile. The south sidings cut down the walk but involve a double shunt.

It is much more complicated and time consuming than, for example, putting a train into Hitchin Up Yard or the Letchworth arrival/departure roads.

 

[Bigbru]

Sure with 4-5 staff! I doubt Letchworth has that many but saying that I’ve still see termini do it quicker with just 1 or 2.

They do it at Maidenhead with 1 member of staff in 2 minutes, sometimes a freight is pathed a couple more minutes behind.

 

[GordonT]

King’s Cross is quite surreal during disruption nowadays. Absolutely no sense of urgency from GTR in terms of organising operations. I was at King’s Cross last night and it seemed like everyone had given up on running a service. The only information being given out was that Cambridge passengers should go to Liverpool Street. Aside from that it felt like time was standing still

Do GTR have much of a senior staff presence in King's Cross or are we looking at a Blackpool North-style collective of "it's nothing to do with me" front liners?

 

[bramling]

Do GTR have much of a senior staff presence in King's Cross or are we looking at a Blackpool North-style collective of "it's nothing to do with me" front liners?

IME it’s more of a disappearing act. The PA goes silent, and the staff seem to fade away into thin air. The gateline staff (agency these days?) claim no knowledge of anything.

I always get the feeling that, post 2018, King’s Cross is very much a backwater and outpost as far as GTR is concerned.

The real problem seems to be the control and driver management though. No one seems to know what drivers are where, let alone attempt to co-ordinate things, and there don’t seem to be any spares to do jobs like move stock into sidings (which brings us back to lack of train crew!).

I get the feeling that GTR have attempted to run a LU level of intensity with a control structure more aligned to a mid-2000s GN which ran fewer services, fewer drivers and more flexibility. Add in GTR’s crew diagrams which seem to be notoriously fragile, and here we are.

Perhaps some of the problem is that GTR feels like the operation is “Southern + Thameslink & Great Northern”, which has become especially apparent with the concentration of functions at Three Bridges. The transfer of GN signalling from King’s Cross PSB to York ROC doesn’t seem to have helped either.

 

[jon0844]

The main TOCs have a supervisor working alongside Network Rail, but it will be NR that manages the displays during disruption and presumably do the PAs.

I don't know if King's Cross puts the CIS into disruption mode, which only shows confirmed services running, but given the limitations of this mode in terms of showing other information (pretty much can't do anything) I suspect they can't.

Announcements are vital at a London terminal station but so too are visual announcements on displays for accessibility purposes. Staff would have an easier time if the boards could show alternative route options, ticket acceptance on other services from other stations (in particular how to get to Liverpool Street or Tottenham Hale for services to Cambridge) and so on.

There are also the issues when drivers are present and are ready to take a train but it seems control can't be reached and they are effectively unable to do anything but wait until they're contacted.

I don't know how it all pans out because if I see there's major disruption I am out of there to get a train to St Albans...

 

[Magdalia]

Perhaps some of the problem is that GTR feels like the operation is “Southern + Thameslink & Great Northern”, which has become especially apparent with the concentration of functions at Three Bridges. The transfer of GN signalling from King’s Cross PSB to York ROC doesn’t seem to have helped either.

I am not a professional railway person but, in my working career, reorganisations and relocations were a frequent and recurrent distraction.

Moving control to Three Bridges and signalling to York are examples of relocations with big risks for business continuity especially retention of skilled people and "collective memory".

Relocations should be effectively managed so that any disruption is limited and temporary. Training of staff at the new locations is critical. I wonder how many Three Bridges control staff or York signallers have ever spent a day on the Cambridge panel, in order to get direct experience of the operational constraints?

The worrying thing here is that disruption is frequent and doesn't seem to be reducing.

 

[GordonT]

I wonder how many Three Bridges control staff or York signallers have ever spent a day on the Cambridge panel, in order to get direct experience of the operational constraints?

Or additionally how many senior managers have ever spent an evening peak on the GTR departure platforms at King's Cross during disruption.

 

[Magdalia]

Or additionally how many senior managers have ever spent an evening peak on the GTR departure platforms at King's Cross during disruption.

One of the great things about the First Capital Connect era was that Elaine Holt did exactly that.

 

[MikeWM]

Yes there was one point where every single through platform was blocked, as platforms 1, 2, 3 and 8 were blocked due to abandoned GTR trains, 4 had a GA train that was meant to terminate in platform 2/3 and another GA train terminated from the north in platform 7 (booked 8). This delayed a few trains by quite a bit and the signaller probably didn't want that to happen again

So we (once again) have platforms at Cambridge blocked by abandoned trains, and a supposed shuttle service between Cambridge and Kings Lynn that isn't actually running.

It seems like their ought to be some sort of solution to those two simultaneous problems, given there are drivers based at both Cambridge and Kings Lynn... Yet GTR don't seem to be able to come up with any sort of workable plan for this frequently-encountered situation.

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GN between Ely and Kings Lynn seem to be cancelled due to what appears to be a signalling fault with trains either end of the single line at Downham Market and Littleport, 1T69 to start from Downham having previously been cancelled on the 1T59.

You've got to feel particularly sorry for those trying to rely on the train north of Ely. The infrastructure falls over regularly, as here, and even when it is fine the service often gets severely trimmed, or stopped outright, due to unrelated issues many miles to the south.

 

[wagnaga]

So we (once again) have platforms at Cambridge blocked by abandoned trains, and a supposed shuttle service between Cambridge and Kings Lynn that isn't actually running.

It seems like their ought to be some sort of solution to those two simultaneous problems, given there are drivers based at both Cambridge and Kings Lynn... Yet GTR don't seem to be able to come up with any sort of workable plan for this frequently-encountered situation.

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You've got to feel particularly sorry for those trying to rely on the train north of Ely. The infrastructure falls over regularly, as here, and even when it is fine the service often gets severely trimmed, or stopped outright, due to unrelated issues many miles to the south.

What was the issue today? I was at Cambridge and departed around this time and didn't see any disruption.

 

[bramling]

So we (once again) have platforms at Cambridge blocked by abandoned trains, and a supposed shuttle service between Cambridge and Kings Lynn that isn't actually running.

It seems like their ought to be some sort of solution to those two simultaneous problems, given there are drivers based at both Cambridge and Kings Lynn... Yet GTR don't seem to be able to come up with any sort of workable plan for this frequently-encountered situation.

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You've got to feel particularly sorry for those trying to rely on the train north of Ely. The infrastructure falls over regularly, as here, and even when it is fine the service often gets severely trimmed, or stopped outright, due to unrelated issues many miles to the south.

It isn’t much better towards the London end. I bet one wouldn’t have e to scour too hard on RTTT to find examples of some very lengthy periods when places like Knebworth or Arlesey have been bereft of trains. And the bigger stations don’t necessarily do much better. Stevenage is fortunate to have LNER.

 

[MikeWM]

What was the issue today? I was at Cambridge and departed around this time and didn't see any disruption.

Sorry for confusion! I was still discussing Monday's incident, but I phrased it in a way that sounded like I meant at the time I was posting

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It isn’t much better towards the London end. I bet one wouldn’t have e to scour too hard on RTTT to find examples of some very lengthy periods when places like Knebworth or Arlesey have been bereft of trains. And the bigger stations don’t necessarily do much better. Stevenage is fortunate to have LNER.

Yes - I know Arlesey is particularly bad. At least for Cambridge/Ely I have the choice of XC and GA too - though the options at Cambridge North get rather limited when GN falls to pieces, with just the hourly Cambridge-Norwich, which tends to be packed to the rafters when there is disruption.

 

[Silver Cobra]

If we're talking about Monday's disruption, Arlesey didn't fair too badly all things considered. While many services were delayed, between 3pm and midnight only four southbound and two northbound services were cancelled/skipped Arlesey. Normally during disruption it's a lot worse than this.

 

[Bikeman78]

I definitely think this is at least part of the problem. Their whole control and crew management function just doesn’t work during disruption, for whatever reason.

Remember what happened when they realised that not enough Horsham drivers signed via Streatham. Half hourly from Peterborough to Horsham was reduced to hourly shuttles from Peterborough to Hitchin and Redhill to Horsham. Or to put it another way, only four units in service instead of 12. That was was with 24 hours notice.

 

[Horizon22]

They do it at Maidenhead with 1 member of staff in 2 minutes, sometimes a freight is pathed a couple more minutes behind.

This is true also of course. As it is in many places done much quicker than Letchworth just that Paddington (Elizabeth line station) is probably not the best example

Moving control to Three Bridges and signalling to York are examples of relocations with big risks for business continuity especially retention of skilled people and "collective memory".


Relocations should be effectively managed so that any disruption is limited and temporary. Training of staff at the new locations is critical. I wonder how many Three Bridges control staff or York signallers have ever spent a day on the Cambridge panel, in order to get direct experience of the operational constraints?

The worrying thing here is that disruption is frequent and doesn't seem to be reducing.

Whilst yes, relocations do have risks for the reasons you mention and can go wrong (SWT/SWR from Waterloo to Basingstoke was not the best handled due to loss of experience), centralising NR and TOC controls also has a lot of benefits too.

It seems like their ought to be some sort of solution to those two simultaneous problems, given there are drivers based at both Cambridge and Kings Lynn... Yet GTR don't seem to be able to come up with any sort of workable plan for this frequently-encountered situation.

All routes should have agreed contingency plans for services for all geographic areas agreed between TOCs and NR. If GTR are unable to resource this due to crew constraints then something will have to give or the TOC will regularly be challenged on their ability to deliver the amended train plan by Network Rail.

 

[bramling]

This is true also of course. As it is in many places done much quicker than Letchworth just that Paddington (Elizabeth line station) is probably not the best example

Seems to be another example of GTR’s poor resource deployment / management. Some days at my station there can be a whole posse of staff doing very little, whilst clearly they don’t have enough staff at Letchworth to detrain an 8-car train quickly.

GTR seem to plan their rolling stock usage reasonably well. But their staff planning is appalling. As an aside, the booking office at my station has degenerated into a total lottery as well.

Guess this comes down to poor leadership at the higher levels. As in, the leadership just don’t have the awareness of where focus needs to be. Contrast this with FCC under Elaine Holt and WAGN during the National Express era, where the leadership had a razor-sharp grasp of what was happening on the ground. GTR feel very remote and monolithic by comparison.

Whilst yes, relocations do have risks for the reasons you mention and can go wrong (SWT/SWR from Waterloo to Basingstoke was not the best handled due to loss of experience), centralising NR and TOC controls also has a lot of benefits too.

The closure of King’s Cross PSB, which at one time IIRC also housed some element of route control as well, has really hurt the GN side. It hasn’t been right since the functions moved elsewhere. I presume this is why there now seems to be a resistance to closing West Hampstead on the Midland side.

 

[WAB]

Whilst yes, relocations do have risks for the reasons you mention and can go wrong (SWT/SWR from Waterloo to Basingstoke was not the best handled due to loss of experience), centralising NR and TOC controls also has a lot of benefits too.

Except as far as GN goes, the relevant Train Running Controllers are in York, so the benefit is easier liaison by the GN controller with the Thameslink controllers. GN's influence on train running is reduced because rather than being able to speak directly to the signallers on the signalling floor of KX PSB, they have to call the TRC at York who may very well be occupied with other things.

 

[philthetube]

Seems to me that a couple of drivers need to be retained at Cambridge just to shunt trains during disruption.

 

[dk1]

Seems to me that a couple of drivers need to be retained at Cambridge just to shunt trains during disruption.

Greater Anglia never seem to have any problems on that front.

Their duty traincrew managers for West Anglia sit alongside control in the ROC at Romford and ready to respond and manipulate crews at times of disruption. Drivers are booked standby/shunt duties which can be supplemented by any spares on the day.

 

[Horizon22]

Except as far as GN goes, the relevant Train Running Controllers are in York, so the benefit is easier liaison by the GN controller with the Thameslink controllers. GN's influence on train running is reduced because rather than being able to speak directly to the signallers on the signalling floor of KX PSB, they have to call the TRC at York who may very well be occupied with other things.

Most TOC controllers need to go through the NR TRC anyway, although it is a mixed bag and there’s lots of conventions and history as to who talks to who but it should be TOC controller > TRC > signaller.

In some cases (such as local station control), it might be more direct with a signaller. As I said though it can vary massively.

The York split is not ideal for GTR - who run across 5 routes - but there are GTR staff based in York for the exact issues you raise.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its been a long time since there were controllers in Kings Cross PSB, and they were FCC controllers, not NR. For issues at Cambridge they would still have had to go through Anglia control and Cambridge PSB.

 

[WeGoAgain]

Seems to me that a couple of drivers need to be retained at Cambridge just to shunt trains during disruption.

AIUI, there were drivers available to do shunts during Monday's disruption. - Maybe the more pertinent question is; why were they not used. - Maybe there are just too many spinning plates for those who make such calls.

 

[43066]

AIUI, there were drivers available to do shunts during Monday's disruption. - Maybe the more pertinent question is; why were they not used. - Maybe there are just too many spinning plates for those who make such calls.

Control/resources snowed under and unable to either make or receive calls?

 

[WeGoAgain]

Control/resources snowed under and unable to either make or receive calls?

Quite probably...

 

[43066]

Quite probably...

Once you’ve worked for one TOC you’ve worked for them all …

 

[Horizon22]

Once you’ve worked for one TOC you’ve worked for them all …

It’s a very true phenomenon though - visitors to control rooms only ever seem to see it when nothing is happening!

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s a very true phenomenon though - visitors to control rooms only ever seem to see it when nothing is happening!

You know that’s not true in my case!

 

[bramling]

Another example today which points to the same issue of poor management focus.

Realtime Trains | 2R03 0528 Letchworth to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2R03 0528 departure from Letchworth to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1T06 0639 London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T06 0639 departure from London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1T17 0842 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 1T17 0842 departure from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2L22 1057 London Kings Cross to Letchworth | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2L22 1057 departure from London Kings Cross to Letchworth on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2R31 1227 Letchworth to London Kings Cross | 14/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 2R31 1227 departure from Letchworth to London Kings Cross on 14/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This diagram ran late all morning today, which all seems to be a knock-on from a problem which occurred at 0530 in the morning - the diagram didn't become right-time until 1342. That's a poor show all round.

Of relevance to observations made elsewhere on here, 2L22 (1057 King's Cross to Letchworth), despite being 23 minutes late, took 7 minutes to detrain at Letchworth. I was observing this, and the detrainment was carried out by one member of staff, who was taking almost a minute to check each carriage, with absolutely no sense of urgency at all. The train didn't seem to turn round quickly in the reception roads, and when it did get back to Letchworth (still 7 late) the train sat in the platform for 2 minutes for no obvious reason before departing. There was a crew change at Hitchin which wasn't especially quick, then the run was reasonably okay as far as Alexandra Palace, where a further 3 minutes was then lost being stuck behind a 717 from Hertford.

I remain of the view that there's a lacking in management focus on the basics. 7 minutes to empty out a train in the early afternoon is completely excessive by any measure. I'm also starting to wonder if some drivers are deliberately wasting time in places, for whatever reason, as I'm starting to notice some trains hanging around in places for no obvious reason.

There were then three "railway enforcement officers" who did nothing but stand and chat in a doorway between Hitchin and London, their presence offering absolutely zero value whatsoever. They'd have been better off trained and deployed to assist with detraining at Letchworth, for example.