Train cancelled and left stranded - TfW says they can't help?

[danchew]

Hi,

I booked an advance ticket from Tenby to Cardiff via Carmarthen. I cycled to Tenby and when I got there I saw the first leg of the journey (Tenby - Carmarthen) was cancelled and this was the last train of the day. I rang TfW who told me that they're arranging busses but bikes aren't allowed and it's up to the driver to let me on with the bike. I asked whether they can arrange a taxi or accommodation then, and they said that wouldn't be possible. They didn't respond to my further messages on WhatsApp (gone past 8pm). So I had to pay £73 for a taxi from Tenby to Carmarthen.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking that TfW has a responsibility to take passengers to their destination, with or without a bike?

I thought about cycling to Carmarthen but I only had just over an hour to cover over 20 miles and that wasn't realistic when I'm tired after cycling all day.

 

[Dai Corner]

Hi,

I booked an advance ticket from Tenby to Cardiff via Carmarthen. I cycled to Tenby and when I got there I saw the first leg of the journey (Tenby - Carmarthen) was cancelled and this was the last train of the day. I rang TfW who told me that they're arranging busses but bikes aren't allowed and it's up to the driver to let me on with the bike. I asked whether they can arrange a taxi or accommodation then, and they said that wouldn't be possible. They didn't respond to my further messages on WhatsApp (gone past 8pm). So I had to pay £73 for a taxi from Tenby to Carmarthen.

Am I being unreasonable in thinking that TfW has a responsibility to take passengers to their destination, with or without a bike?

I thought about cycling to Carmarthen but I only had just over an hour to cover over 20 miles and that wasn't realistic when I'm tired after cycling all day.

Did you ask the bus driver if they'd take your bike?

 

[Llandudno]

I think the other issue is that the TfW social media team, WhatsApp and Twitter go home at 8pm, most other TOCs are still contactable until at least 10pm - even Northern!

 

[danchew]

Did you ask the bus driver if they'd take your bike?

No.

As I said this was around 8pm and the last train from Carmarthen to Cardiff was at 21:37.

They told me there's no ETA for the busses from Tenby, so I wasn't going to wait around indefinitely only to be told no, then miss the train from Carmarthen. So I had to call a taxi and made it to Carmarthen before the last train.

I asked just before 8pm if the busses are arriving soon and there was no reply as they close WhatsApp & phone line at 8.

I think the other issue is that the TfW social media team, WhatsApp and Twitter go home at 8pm, most other TOCs are still contactable until at least 10pm - even Northern!

I didn't know that. Yes, it left me totally in the dark about the busses.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think the other issue is that the TfW social media team, WhatsApp and Twitter go home at 8pm, most other TOCs are still contactable until at least 10pm - even Northern!

Aren't the help points at stations answered 24/7, or at least during train running hours?

 

[sonic2009]

There was a train to Swansea that left 2 hours later at 2142 - did TFW say this wasn't running?

Although it arrived into Swansea after the last Cardiff service had left, at least there's staff available to sort out any replacement transport for Cardiff.

 

[danchew]

There was a train to Swansea that left 2 hours later at 2142 - did TFW say this wasn't running?

Although it arrived into Swansea after the last Cardiff service had left, at least there's staff available to sort out any replacement transport for Cardiff.

What?! I didn't know that at all. Yesterday from Tenby? No they didn't tell me and it didn't show up on the app.

 

[redreni]

It wouldn't be reasonable of them to tell you after the fact that you should have waited at Tenby for the 21:42, if they didn't tell you that when you contacted them on WhatsApp.

The point at issue here is whether your taxi expenses were necessarily and reasonably incurred. Given their response, when you asked for their help in getting to Carmarthen for your booked train, was that you could wait at Tenby for a bus that might or might not turn up within an unspecified timeframe and might or might not take your bike, and that if it didn't turn up then they couldn't help with overnight accommodation, I would say it would arguably have been a touch reckless for somebody travelling alone to do anything other than get a taxi to Carmarthen faced with that advice. They should have called a taxi for you.

And given their obligation to assist you if you would otherwise be stranded, it's incredibly poor that they didn't message you just before 8pm to tell you what the arrangements are for contacting the TOC after that time, whether via the help points or otherwise. You had told them the last train was cancelled.

 

[sonic2009]

What?! I didn't know that at all. Yesterday from Tenby? No they didn't tell me and it didn't show up on the app.

Yes this one here :

Realtime Trains | 2E30 2107 Pembroke Dock to Swansea | 12/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 2E30 2107 departure from Pembroke Dock to Swansea on 12/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Although probably not known at the time you could of got a taxi to Whitland to make your service to Cardiff at 2115

Realtime Trains | 2B26 2038 Milford Haven to Cardiff Central | 12/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 2B26 2038 departure from Milford Haven to Cardiff Central on 12/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[alistairlees]

What?! I didn't know that at all. Yesterday from Tenby? No they didn't tell me and it didn't show up on the app.

Presumably you were planning to get the 19:51 from Tenby to Cardiff yesterday? If you were searching on a app (which one?) for "Tenby to Cardiff Central" then this will have been the last service to show, as there are no further direct or indirect services from Tenby to Cardiff after this time. More local journeys from Tenby that go only to Swansea or Carmarthen would not have showed up in the search results, and you cannot be expected to have known about them.

 

[danchew]

It wouldn't be reasonable of them to tell you after the fact that you should have waited at Tenby for the 21:42, if they didn't tell you that when you contacted them on WhatsApp.

The point at issue here is whether your taxi expenses were necessarily and reasonably incurred. Given their response, when you asked for their help in getting to Carmarthen for your booked train, was that you could wait at Tenby for a bus that might or might not turn up within an unspecified timeframe and might or might not take your bike, and that if it didn't turn up then they couldn't help with overnight accommodation, I would say it would arguably have been a touch reckless for somebody travelling alone to do anything other than get a taxi to Carmarthen faced with that advice. They should have called a taxi for you.

And given their obligation to assist you if you would otherwise be stranded, it's incredibly poor that they didn't message you just before 8pm to tell you what the arrangements are for contacting the TOC after that time, whether via the help points or otherwise. You had told them the last train was cancelled.

Well that's how I see it!

I'll make a claim for the taxi and see what happens.

Yes this one here :

Realtime Trains | 2E30 2107 Pembroke Dock to Swansea | 12/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 2E30 2107 departure from Pembroke Dock to Swansea on 12/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Although probably not known at the time you could of got a taxi to Whitland to make your service to Cardiff at 2115

Realtime Trains | 2B26 2038 Milford Haven to Cardiff Central | 12/04/2025

Real-time train running information for 2B26 2038 departure from Milford Haven to Cardiff Central on 12/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I didn't know about the whitland train. I would have just cycled there no problem.

Presumably you were planning to get the 19:51 from Tenby to Cardiff yesterday? If you were searching on a app (which one?) for "Tenby to Cardiff Central" then this will have been the last service to show, as there are no further direct or indirect services from Tenby to Cardiff after this time. More local journeys from Tenby that go only to Swansea or Carmarthen would not have showed up in the search results, and you cannot be expected to have known about them.

Yes that's what I did, not realising there are other trains. What I'm now confused about is why they didn't advise me about this when I rang them.

 

[redreni]

Yes, if there was a cheaper and more efficient way of doing it then TfW should have, when asked to, assisted the passenger who would otherwise be stranded, and maybe then they could have kept the costs down. In fact, if they'd said they would lay on a taxi to Whitland to connect with the train there, they'd have solved the problem without actually having to incur any costs at all as the OP would have said "don't worry, I'll cycle there".

But given they were unhelpful to the point of not meeting their obligations under the NRCoT, in my view they should just pay the expenses actually and reasonably incurred by the passenger.

 

[danchew]

Yes, if there was a cheaper and more efficient way of doing it then TfW should have, when asked to, assisted the passenger who would otherwise be stranded, and maybe then they could have kept the costs down. In fact, if they'd said they would lay on a taxi to Whitland to connect with the train there, they'd have solved the problem without actually having to incur any costs at all as the OP would have said "don't worry, I'll cycle there".

But given they were unhelpful to the point of not meeting their obligations under the NRCoT, in my view they should just pay the expenses actually and reasonably incurred by the passenger.

This is my WhatsApp chat with them and I had the same reply on the phone - no further information about other trains that goes to Carmarthen. And the fact that after cycling 130 miles I was tired and soaking wet is obviously not their fault but I still tried to highlight the dire situation I was in...

At least I know for next time that there are other train lines. In fact I knew this as I get the train from Cardiff to Swansea regularly (that goes to Milford Haven), but in my tired state I didn't come to think of that option.

 

[TUC]

It really isn't good enough for TfW, or any TOC, to tell a passengers to wait and see whether a bus driver will allow a bike on board. They're either allowed or they aren't.

 

[alistairlees]

Although you could have cycled from Tenby to Whitland, in time to catch a direct train from there to Cardiff, the key points are:
- you didn’t know this
- your original intention was to travel from Tenby to Cardiff. (Did you already have a ticket or were you intending to buy one at Tenby?)
- had you followed their advice and waited for the bus the best case scenario was to be let on, but still only have been able to get as far as Swansea (or alternatively, you could have caught another train 2 hours after your intended departure, but still only got as far as Swansea).
- in which case TFW would have needed to pay for a taxi from Swansea to Cardiff which would likely have cost more than the taxi that you purchased from Tenby to Carmarthen. And, you would also have been eligible for 100% delay repay.

In other words your actions have likely cost TFW no more than they would otherwise have had to spend; and, quite possibly, less. Given that they could not provide you with any certainty about anything at all, and were simply offering you the strong likelihood of being stranded for the night, I don’t think you can be blamed for taking the reasonable course of action that you did. And I can’t see what grounds tfw have to argue about it.

 

[StarCrossing]

Confusingly, your posts here talk only about Tenby, but in the WhatsApp conversation you said you were at Narberth. Narberth is less than 4 miles from Clunderwen, which had a direct train to Cardiff at 21:08.

 

[Darandio]

Confusingly, your posts here talk only about Tenby, but in the WhatsApp conversation you said you were at Narberth. Narberth is less than 4 miles from Clunderwen, which had a direct train to Cardiff at 21:08.

Indeed whilst also saying they spent £73 for a taxi from Tenby to Carmarthen with no mention of Narberth whatsoever. Doesn't really add up.

 

[Deerfold]

Although you could have cycled from Tenby to Whitland, in time to catch a direct train from there to Cardiff, the key points are:

- your original intention was to travel from Tenby to Cardiff. (Did you already have a ticket or were you intending to buy one at Tenby?)

In the OP they say they had an Advance from Tenby to Cardiff.

 

[danchew]

Confusingly, your posts here talk only about Tenby, but in the WhatsApp conversation you said you were at Narberth. Narberth is less than 4 miles from Clunderwen, which had a direct train to Cardiff at 21:08.

I stopped at Narberth to get food on my way to Tenby. Checked the TfW app to find out the train from Tenby had been cancelled. As I said above, I didn't know about the other trains from nearby stations, so didn't think of making my way to Clunderwen or Whitland. This is why I said I'm confused why they didn't simply tell me there are other train options, at this point, when I rang them and messaged them.

Indeed whilst also saying they spent £73 for a taxi from Tenby to Carmarthen with no mention of Narberth whatsoever. Doesn't really add up.

Called Narberth cabs three times and they didn't pick up the phone. So I rang other taxi companies in Tenby who said they can't come all the way to Narberth to pick me up, so I had to cycle there to get a taxi.

Why don't you ask me what the full story is before implying that I'm lying or making things up?

 

[Darandio]

Called Narberth cabs three times and they didn't pick up the phone. So I rang other taxi companies in Tenby who said they can't come all the way to Narberth to pick me up, so I had to cycle there to get a taxi.

Thanks for confirming.

Why don't you ask me what the full story is before implying that I'm lying or making things up?

You've created a thread asking for advice. Maybe give the full story in the first place?

 

[redreni]

For future reference, there is a requirement in the NRCoT for TOCs to assist you if you would otherwise be stranded, but it's important to make that clear to them.

In particular, it's a good idea to mention to them what ticket you hold, what your booked itinerary is and say that you booked it ahead of time, otherwise they may think you haven't bought your ticket yet in which case they wouldn't have the same obligations towards you, given by that time they had already announced that the train you were hoping to catch wasn't running.

In general, if you want a TOC to cover the cost of alternative transport (or overnight accommodation where alternative transport isn't possible), it's really important to give them full details of your tickets and booked itinerary and to ask them directly to provide alternative transport or overnight accommodation. In this case, you do have a refusal to cover the cost of taxis or hotels, but they may say they didn't know you already held a ticket and that you didn't give them enough information to be able to investigate taxis or overnight accommodation.

In addition, not going to Tenby and getting a taxi from there, while understandable in the circumstances, is something you may be asked to explain, since the TOC's obligation is to convey you from origin to destination as per your ticket. It is not a ticket where you could have started short.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main issue here is the involvement of a bicycle, isn't it? The TOCs would like to think that as bicycles and bulky luggage are carried for free, they aren't obliged to accommodate them on rail replacement whether planned or not. Indeed I suspect not wanting to create a contract which would require them to arrange transport for them is why they don't introduce a charge for them.

If it's indeed the case that a contract doesn't exist to transport the bicycle because it isn't paid for (consideration=contract), then TfW have no obligations at all. But could a bicycle booked at the time of paying a fare be considered part of the contract?

 

[danchew]

For future reference, there is a requirement in the NRCoT for TOCs to assist you if you would otherwise be stranded, but it's important to make that clear to them.

In particular, it's a good idea to mention to them what ticket you hold, what your booked itinerary is and say that you booked it ahead of time, otherwise they may think you haven't bought your ticket yet in which case they wouldn't have the same obligations towards you, given by that time they had already announced that the train you were hoping to catch wasn't running.

In general, if you want a TOC to cover the cost of alternative transport (or overnight accommodation where alternative transport isn't possible), it's really important to give them full details of your tickets and booked itinerary and to ask them directly to provide alternative transport or overnight accommodation. In this case, you do have a refusal to cover the cost of taxis or hotels, but they may say they didn't know you already held a ticket and that you didn't give them enough information to be able to investigate taxis or overnight accommodation.

In addition, not going to Tenby and getting a taxi from there, while understandable in the circumstances, is something you may be asked to explain, since the TOC's obligation is to convey you from origin to destination as per your ticket. It is not a ticket where you could have started short.

Thanks for the advice. I just checked my initial message on Whatsapp and I did say I have an advance ticket, so it wasn't the case that they thought I only had the intention of buying a ticket on arrival. I also mentioned I have a ticket on my phone call.

The main issue here is the involvement of a bicycle, isn't it? The TOCs would like to think that as bicycles and bulky luggage are carried for free, they aren't obliged to accommodate them on rail replacement whether planned or not. Indeed I suspect not wanting to create a contract which would require them to arrange transport for them is why they don't introduce a charge for them.

If it's indeed the case that a contract doesn't exist to transport the bicycle because it isn't paid for (consideration=contract), then TfW have no obligations at all. But could a bicycle booked at the time of paying a fare be considered part of the contract?

That's indeed my question. My understanding is that if I already hold a ticket and the last train from A to B has been cancelled, then they have to provide an alternative. So possibly they can argue that they did provide an alternative (replacement bus) and it's not their obligation to make sure that passengers with bikes can use the replacement. Or from my point of view, the obligation to get passengers from A to B is the same whether or not they arrive at the station by bike. I didn't have the bike booked btw as there was no option to do this at the time of booking (why is the option sometimes there and sometimes not?).

 

[redreni]

I should have thought if at the time of booking the plan was to provide the service using a train, and if the TOC's policy allows bicycles to be carried if there is room for them, then the question becomes why couldn't the bicycle be carried? If it is simply because when the train arrives, all the bicycle spaces are taken, that's probably tough luck.

But if the train is cancelled and the alternative transport put on doesn't accommodate bicycles at all, then I would say passengers who bought their ticket before the disruption was known should be able to insist on alternative transport for themselves and their bike, as they booked their ticket with a legitimate expectation that they and their bike would be carried.

I do agree, though, bikes on trains are a bit of a minefield and the rules do seem to be written in such a way as to say "we're not going to stop you taking your bike if there's room for it, but if things go wrong - well - get on yer bike" (as it were).

I think this is also a situation where starting short at Narberth would be a non-issue, in practice, in normal circumstances. But if you find yourself having to ask the TOC to ring you a taxi, being on the wrong side of a break of journey restriction is probably going to be fatal to your chances of getting them to do so or being reimbursed for having to organise your own taxi.

Thanks for the advice. I just checked my initial message on Whatsapp and I did say I have an advance ticket, so it wasn't the case that they thought I only had the intention of buying a ticket on arrival. I also mentioned I have a ticket on my phone call.

Ah, okay. As I say, just clocking off without saying anything when you know you have a stranded passenger is pretty poor, imho. I would certainly be complaining about that.

 

[The exile]

The main issue here is the involvement of a bicycle, isn't it? The TOCs would like to think that as bicycles and bulky luggage are carried for free, they aren't obliged to accommodate them on rail replacement whether planned or not. Indeed I suspect not wanting to create a contract which would require them to arrange transport for them is why they don't introduce a charge for them.

If it's indeed the case that a contract doesn't exist to transport the bicycle because it isn't paid for (consideration=contract), then TfW have no obligations at all. But could a bicycle booked at the time of paying a fare be considered part of the contract?

It is surely also relevant (and not clear to me ) whether the taxi also took the bicycle.

 

[danchew]

It is surely also relevant (and not clear to me ) whether the taxi also took the bicycle.

Whether the taxi I got took the bicycle? Yes it did, though it took some persuasion!

 

[Jez]

To be honest, if they let people take bikes on the train then if the train is cancelled then they have a duty to get you back home. Therefore arrangements should be put in place that can accommodate bikes. If that means a taxi instead of boarding the replacement bus which cant take bikes then so be it!

Either way i would put a claim in for the taxi.I was stranded in Cardiff back in December and booked myself a travel lodge for the night. I got a refund for the train ticket but they said they couldnt refund hotels but they said as a gesture of goodwill they would send me vouchers and i got £60 worth to use in the next 12 months. This was pretty much what the hotel cost me. Even if you get some vouchers its something especially if you use the train regularly as I do.

 

[danchew]

To be honest, if they let people take bikes on the train then if the train is cancelled then they have a duty to get you back home. Therefore arrangements should be put in place that can accommodate bikes. If that means a taxi instead of boarding the replacement bus which cant take bikes then so be it!

Either way i would put a claim in for the taxi.I was stranded in Cardiff back in December and booked myself a travel lodge for the night. I got a refund for the train ticket but they said they couldnt refund hotels but they said as a gesture of goodwill they would send me vouchers and i got £60 worth to use in the next 12 months. This was pretty much what the hotel cost me. Even if you get some vouchers its something especially if you use the train regularly as I do.

I'm expecting a similar response which I don't mind, but it does make me wonder what criteria they use to decide whether to pay for someone's taxi.

 

[alistairlees]

I summarised what I see as the situation in post 15. I see no reason why you should not be reimbursed in full. You should certainly not have to accept payment in kind (ie vouchers to suffer another journey on tfw); you should just be put into a position where you have suffered no financial loss.

 

[Jez]

I'm expecting a similar response which I don't mind, but it does make me wonder what criteria they use to decide whether to pay for someone's taxi.

With me it was because there was a do not travel warning issued, however my journey was from Leeds to Neath travelling via Manchester. I needed to get back home. The entire marches line was closed so i went via Birmingham as trains were running. At the time of setting off weather conditions were improving and the line between Cardiff and Swansea was expected to reopen at 2000 that evening. Cut a long story short it didnt and trains were suspended for the rest of the day. i ended up staying in a travel lodge at Cardiff which was my choice rather than a taxi from Cardiff. I could have gone to Bridgend via the VOG but figured I had more options if i stayed in Cardiff. I didnt expect to get anything for the hotel but was pleasantly surprised they gave me vouchers as gesture of goodwill.

With your situation it was a cancelled train due to TFW's own fault not due to any circumstances out of their control such as weather conditions. So you should certainly get a refund for the train ticket. Whether they give you anything for the taxi is very much going to be at their discretion I think as it was paid for by yourself rather than them putting a taxi on. However if you stress you had no other choice and explain it all in writing via email that usually helps. Let us know how you get on!