Penalty Fare Notice. Northern.

[Padd1ington]

Hello, I've recently received a PFN. I've been directed here to see if you guys could help. Me and my wife boarded a train from Brighouse to Leeds, we haven't used the trains for over 10yrs so we were under the impression we could buy a ticket on the train or at the station in Leeds. We didn't know they had ticket machines at Brighouse. We went to pay and they said they would have to fine us. The man said if we explain everything on appeal they will be lenient because it's our first offence. The appeal failed. We've since been back to look at the station, and their are some signs but we wouldn't have seen it unless we were looking for it. The ticket machine is not very visible either and took us a minute to find it under the bridge. Is their any grounds for a second appeal, or should I just pay the fine (2 fines, me and my wife!) Thanks in advance

 

[jp4712]

You have no grounds for appeal unless there are specific technical reasons which are unlikely to apply. I know Brighouse, you have to pass those yellow posters so that’s one ’loophole’ gone. I don’t think the ticket machines are hard to find.

Your best option is, honestly speaking, to pay up.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you could upload the notices with your personal details redacted you may have a technical line of appeal.

 

[Padd1ington]

You have no grounds for appeal unless there are specific technical reasons which are unlikely to apply. I know Brighouse, you have to pass those yellow posters so that’s one ’loophole’ gone. I don’t think the ticket machines are hard to find.

Your best option is, honestly speaking, to pay up.

The yellow poster nearest to where we walked down is in between two walkways(coming g
down from street level) We definitely didn't notice it first time. And we also didn't know what the ticket machines looked like, thought it was just an advertising board

 

[enyoueffsea]

Unfortunately for you, ignorance is not a sufficient mitigation.

It’s often likened on here to a speeding offence. “I’m sorry officer, we didn’t see the speed limit signs and I don’t know this road”, isn’t going to wash either.

As with AlterEgo, unless there is an error with the penalty notice itself, you should be paying up.

 

[Padd1ington]

If you could upload the notices with your personal details redacted you may have a technical line of appeal.

Sorry it's not letting upload the pictures. What are you looking for, os it something I can check?

Unfortunately for you, ignorance is not a sufficient mitigation.

It’s often likened on here to a speeding offence. “I’m sorry officer, we didn’t see the speed limit signs and I don’t know this road”, isn’t going to wash either.

As with AlterEgo, unless there is an error with the penalty notice itself, you should be paying up.

I thought it would be a long shot, worth a try.

AlterEgo

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Shouldn't the penalty fare notice(s) show Brighouse, somewhere?

 

[Padd1ington]

Just like upload some pictures from the station. Don't know if anyone else thinks this is adequate signage? One of the pictures is the ticket machine. It's under the stairs in a seating area.

Just like upload some pictures from the station. Don't know if anyone else thinks this is adequate signage? One of the pictures is the ticket machine. It's under the stairs in a seating area.

We came from down the steps and waited there for the train

 

[Hadders]

What matters with the signage is the exact wording on it. Unfortunately the photo is not of sufficient quality to see the wording so a better photo is needed.

The Penalty Fare Regulations prescribe the wording that must be used on the notices, and often the wording does not comply with the regulations.

 

[Padd1ington]

What matters with the signage is the exact wording on it. Unfortunately the photo is not of sufficient quality to see the wording so a better photo is needed.

The Penalty Fare Regulations prescribe the wording that must be used on the notices, and often the wording does not comply with the regulations.

 

[furlong]

Is that the complete Penalty Fare notice? What you've posted is obviously incomplete in terms of the regulations. If there is any further text above or below or on the back or if you were given a separate leaflet about it please show us that too. What is under the pen - which fields of personal details?

Regarding the signage, it's debatable whether the small versions they've started using meet the requirement to be 'readily visible'. Where a ticket machine is hidden or not obvious, best practice to ensure enforcement requires additional signage to indicate its location - not just to hide in small print nobody's going to read a useless statement that it "will be" located on the station premises. (Many stations do have signs saying where to go to buy tickets.) The wording remains incorrect - the penalty is only at least £50 not £100. The fare payable is not necessarily that for your "intended journey" - if it was, the regulations would be unimplementable as you are under no obligation to provide your intended destination at the time (but you could then provide it later to invalidate the PF actually issued) - and your intended destination could anyway be a station beyond a location to which the regulations permit PFs to be issued.

In terms of specific regulations, decide for yourself!

Display of Notices
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of
Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.
...
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.
...
Standard notice
1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—
(a) the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;
(b) the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;
(c) the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
(d)...in stations in England, the wording “A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable”;
(e) wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and
(f) the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

 

[Padd1ington]

Is that the complete Penalty Fare notice? What you've posted is obviously incomplete in terms of the regulations. If there is any further text above

Thank you. It's our names and address under the pen. I'll upload the full ticket. It's in parts because it's about 3 ft long.

Is that the complete Penalty Fare notice? What you've posted is obviously incomplete in terms of the regulations. If there is any further text above or below or on the back or if you were given a separate leaflet about it please show us that too. What is under the pen - which fields of personal details?

Regarding the signage, it's debatable whether the small versions they've started using meet the requirement to be 'readily visible'. Where a ticket machine is hidden or not obvious, best practice to ensure enforcement requires additional signage to indicate its location - not just to hide in small print nobody's going to read a useless statement that it "will be" located on the station premises. (Many stations do have signs saying where to go to buy tickets.) The wording remains incorrect - the penalty is only at least £50 not £100. The fare payable is not necessarily that for your "intended journey" - if it was, the regulations would be unimplementable as you are under no obligation to provide your intended destination at the time (but you could then provide it later to invalidate the PF actually issued) - and your intended destination could anyway be a station beyond a location to which the regulations permit PFs to be issued.

In terms of specific regulations, decide for yourself!

Do you think their is a realistic chance of the appeal being successful if I quote some of these regulations?

 

[furlong]

So as already pointed out, does it fail to state your origin and destination?

Anyone reading it would not know to which station it allows you to travel (unless they incorporate logic and their own knowledge).

the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—
...
(b) where the penalty fare authorises a person to travel, the station to which the penalty fare authorises the person to travel.

This is not identified on the notice - it merely states where it was issued.

 

[Haywain]

Anyone reading it would not know to which station it allows you to travel (unless they incorporate logic and their own knowledge).


This is not identified on the notice - it merely states where it was issued.

If a PFN is issued at the destination station of the journey, and no further travel is to be undertaken, why would it need to authorise any travel?

 

[Padd1ington]

If a PFN is issued at the destination station of the journey, and no further travel is to be undertaken, why would it need to authorise any travel?

That's correct leeds was our last stop. It doesn't state departure station.

So I could appeal on grounds that the sign in not readily visible? And that the sign does not use the exact words in the regulations?

 

[AlterEgo]

That's correct leeds was our last stop. It doesn't state departure station.

So I could appeal on grounds that the sign in not readily visible? And that the sign does not use the exact words in the regulations?

You can, but we have never seen either of these reasons work at any stage of appeal for a very long time. The requirement to buy before you travel is a matter of criminal law and assessors likely take the view that little if anything turns on the signage requirement informing you about Penalty Fares. (They aren’t *supposed to*, but we have to play the field as it lies, not as we would hope it to be!)

 

[Haywain]

So I could appeal on grounds that the sign in not readily visible?

From the photos you've posted I can't see any mileage in that argument.