Brake vans in the South Wales coalfield

[alexl92]

Hi folks,
As a railway modeller as well as enthusiast I’ve found myself collecting PO coal wagons that carry the names of collieries and coal merchants from a particular part of South Wales.

I would very much like to add an appropriate brake van to complement this rake.

What kinds of Brake Vans would have been used around Ammanford ans Swansea in the 1900-1948 sort of period? Would they be predominantly a mixture of pre-grouping types and the standard GWR ‘Toad’ type van?

And would this have been the same through the 1950s/60s when 16T mineral wagons were taking over, or would they have switched to the standard BR 20T design based on the LNER one?

Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

The lines through Ammanford were Great Western, so it will always have GW vans. A few from some of the absorbed railways might appear after 1923, but that is unlikely to be typical. It is likely that almost all were older unbraked types. I would doubt that the BR vans started appearing until the 1960s as they initially went to more important duties.

There is a feature on GWR Goods Brake Vans in the Features section of the GWR Modelling site ( .GWR.org.uk ). A quick skim through Gent’s book on BR vans suggests that the WR’s BR vehicles were primarily on mainline work; there doesn’t appear to be anything in Larkin or Atkins.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From my close observation of the GCG and Abernant lines in the 1960's , they were consistently standard BR brake vans - very rare to see an ex LMS van in service - the concrete floored ends were handy for uncoupling with a shunting pole during certain very local moves.

 

[Gloster]

There was a ban on vans without duckets being used on long-distance services from 1957, which led to a lot of withdrawals of GWR vans from revenue service. However, members of Diagrams AA19, AA20, AA21, AA23 and BR 1/502 continued to operate in decreasing numbers until the late 1960s.

EDIT: Further delving reveals that GWR vans were withdrawn from revenue service in 1965, possibly early on or possibly during the summer. The reason was that the NUR was unhappy about there being only one way of egress, something that may have been brought to a head following an accident. There was also some unhappiness about having the brake wheel in the open.

EDIT II: underlined words added as I forgot them first time round.

 

[alexl92]

Thanks all.
Also, can anyone clarify which way round GWR TOAD vans were supposed to face? I've seen conflicting information - Verndah towards the train, or Verandah facing backwards? I've always believe the Verandah should have faced backwards but most heritage lines run them the other way around.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks all.
Also, can anyone clarify which way round GWR TOAD vans were supposed to face? I've seen conflicting information - Verndah towards the train, or Verandah facing backwards? I've always believe the Verandah should have faced backwards but most heritage lines run them the other way around.

There was a thread on this forum a couple of years ago: GWR Toad Vans direction of running . Do a search (top right of this page) on this and select ‘Search titles only’. (What I have said above supersedes anything I wrote in that thread.)

 

[billh]

The lines through Ammanford were Great Western, so it will always have GW vans. A few from some of the absorbed railways might appear after 1923, but that is unlikely to be typical. It is likely that almost all were older unbraked types. I would doubt that the BR vans started appearing until the 1960s as they initially went to more important duties.

There is a feature on GWR Goods Brake Vans in the Features section of the GWR Modelling site ( .GWR.org.uk ). A quick skim through Gent’s book on BR vans suggests that the WR’s BR vehicles were primarily on mainline work; there doesn’t appear to be anything in Larkin or Atkins.

I'm puzzled by "older unbraked type" ?? An unbraked brake van sounds a bit useless. I must have misunderstood. Can you explain please?

 

[Gloster]

I'm puzzled by "older unbraked type" ?? An unbraked brake van sounds a bit useless. I must have misunderstood. Can you explain please?

Sorry, me using old terminology from my days on the railway. Unbraked means without being fitted with the automatic vacuum brake, instead only having a handbrake operated by the guard. There were also ‘piped’ vehicles which had a through vacuum pipe to allow vehicles behind to be connected to the vacuum, but it did not operate on the vehicle itself: not surprisingly, these last were very rare birds. Later on there were also air braked and pipes.

 

[billh]

Thank you for that, I understand now.

 

[edwin_m]

Later on there were also air braked and pipes.

I believe few if any brake vans had air brakes, and probably few had vacuum brakes either, as it's difficult to think of a situation where this would be necessary. The pipe was handy for two reasons: it included a "setter" valve for the guard to apply the continuous brake, and it allowed the van to be moved "empty" in a fitted train as long as it wasn't the last vehicle. If it was the last vehicle it would have to have a guard on board, but that was mandatory in the 1960s anyway even for fully fitted trains (noting exceptions where a few fitted vehicles were formed behind the guard and van).

 

[Harpo]

I'm puzzled by "older unbraked type" ?? An unbraked brake van sounds a bit useless. I must have misunderstood. Can you explain please?

Even if a brakevan was fitted (air or vacuum), if it was behind unfitted, partially fitted or mixed brake trains (air & vacuum vehicles in one formation) there was no automatic braking on the van, just the screw.

 

[Gloster]

Of the GW brakevans all one hundred AA21 were vacuum fitted when built (1939-1940) and there were a number of others vehicles that had been fitted over the years. Some AA23 (built 1942 on) and around twenty of BR 1/502, the continuation of the AA23, were later fitted.

A few of the BR’s early builds of the LNER-design and the near identical BR one had vacuum brakes, but many remained unfitted. However, from 1955 all of the standard design were vacuum-braked and this made up around half of all BR’s build of these two types. Oddly, the final builds of a variant fitted with roller-bearings were only vacuum-piped.

 

[D Mylchreest]

As the OP is collecting PO wagons he is, I presume, modelling the pre-1939 era. But this is it post or pre-group? Basically the earlier vans would be appropriate, but their liveries might not because they changed during the period. It is also true that the GW tended to allocate vans to particular areas/services and so many vans were branded accordingly.
Here you go. But it might turn out expensive!
There are a good many RTR models of GW brake vans
You could try joining the Great Western Society

GWR Goods Brake Vans

GWR Modelling provides links, notes, galleries and inspiration for modellers of the Great Western Railway in Britain

www.gwr.org.uk

 

[alexl92]

As the OP is collecting PO wagons he is, I presume, modelling the pre-1939 era. But this is it post or pre-group? Basically the earlier vans would be appropriate, but their liveries might not because they changed during the period. It is also true that the GW tended to allocate vans to particular areas/services and so many vans were branded accordingly.
Here you go. But it might turn out expensive!
There are a good many RTR models of GW brake vans
You could try joining the Great Western Society

GWR Goods Brake Vans

GWR Modelling provides links, notes, galleries and inspiration for modellers of the Great Western Railway in Britain

www.gwr.org.uk

To be honest, it’s a heritage railway with an industrial/light railway theme but some crossover into what might have been where such lines interacted with the mainline, and plenty of ‘rule1’

The GWR is generally not my area of interest at all but a combo of the aforementioned family links to the Ammanford area and impending gift of an Accurascale GWR 7754 in NCB Green has led me down this route!

 

[6Gman]

I believe few if any brake vans had air brakes, and probably few had vacuum brakes either, as it's difficult to think of a situation where this would be necessary. The pipe was handy for two reasons: it included a "setter" valve for the guard to apply the continuous brake, and it allowed the van to be moved "empty" in a fitted train as long as it wasn't the last vehicle. If it was the last vehicle it would have to have a guard on board, but that was mandatory in the 1960s anyway even for fully fitted trains (noting exceptions where a few fitted vehicles were formed behind the guard and van).

Pretty sure there were some air-braked brake vans (or possibly air-piped?). Many years ago I started building a model of one! My vague recollection is that they had a livery to indicate their status, perhaps a yellow or white stripe on the side and ends?

 

[edwin_m]

Pretty sure there were some air-braked brake vans (or possibly air-piped?). Many years ago I started building a model of one! My vague recollection is that they had a livery to indicate their status, perhaps a yellow or white stripe on the side and ends?

I believe air piped were quite common but air braked were rare.

 

[Gloster]

Pretty sure there were some air-braked brake vans, many years ago I started building a model of one! My vague recollection is that they had a livery to indicate their status.

According to Gent between 230 and 240 BR-design vans were fitted with an air-pipe and gauge at Ashford in 1966 and 1967, possibly also 1968. They were intended for use in MGR trains, but once there was an agreement allowing guards to travel in the rear loco cab (it came into force circa 1969) they were moved to other air-braked traffic that required a brake van (gas, nuclear, chemicals, etc.). A few more were later air-piped for Departmental use.

 

[Rescars]

Not really relevant to the OP, but AIUI all the Southern's "Queen Mary" 25T bogie vans were vacuum fitted from the outset.

 

[Gloster]

Not really relevant to the OP, but AIUI all the Southern's "Queen Mary" 25T bogie vans were vacuum fitted from the outset.

Indeed. Both the Queen Marys and the earlier Gondolas were vacuum-braked from (re)building; in 1961 six of the Queen Marys were fitted with air-brakes for continental traffic. Not that they would have got anywhere near South Wales: the Southern held on to them tightly.