FTPE Franchise Extension

[Whistler40145]

Does anyone agree or disagree with the announcement that First Transpennine Express's franchise has been extended from 2012 to 2015?

 

[Aictos]

I agree obviously as I don't think they're that bad, services are reliable whenever I've used them, the only issue I have is the fact that 3 car 185s are used when 4 or even 5 car 185s ought to have been ordered which results in overcrowding.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

On balance, I think it's deserved.

 

[Greenback]

They are not the worst TOC! I agree longer trains would be good, but then that's true of a lot of places!

Is the extension to bring it into line with other franchises, so that consideration can be given to altering them at the same time?

 

[northwichcat]

The problem with franchise extensions is a new franchise is much more likely to specify new rolling stock than a franchise extension. The same issue is relevant to the Northern franchise.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is the extension to bring it into line with other franchises, so that consideration can be given to altering them at the same time?

Yes, whilst the extension is all the way to 2015 (and it's this that First are heavily publicising) the DfT can terminate it at any time from April 2014, this date being significant because it's the same date that the present Northern Rail franchise runs out. So it is possible that the DfT are considering a reshuffle between TPE and Northern.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, whilst the extension is all the way to 2015 (and it's this that First are heavily publicising) the DfT can terminate it at any time from April 2014, this date being significant because it's the same date that the present Northern Rail franchise runs out. So it is possible that the DfT are considering a reshuffle between TPE and Northern.

That's what I thought. Of course, they may conside rit and decide to do nothing!

 

[Whistler40145]

I say if it ain't broken don't try & fix it. I totally agree that FTPE keep the franchise. If a new franchisee took over & requested new stock (DMUs) prior to the electrification projects being completed, this would be a complete waste of resources.

 

[northwichcat]

I say if it ain't broken don't try & fix it. I totally agree that FTPE keep the franchise. If a new franchisee took over & requested new stock (DMUs) prior to the electrification projects being completed, this would be a complete waste of resources.

No it wouldn't provided long term aims were clearly set out. For example, a new order of 30 x 3 car 172s could be ordered for TPE now, maybe even 40 if another home is available for the 170s. Then 30 x 3 car 172s can be cascaded down as 150/155/156 replacement at Northern as the EMUs arrive with the aforementioned 150/155/156s replacing Pacers that are then scrapped.

 

[All Line Rover]

They are not the worst TOC! I agree longer trains would be good, but then that's true of a lot of places!

They are a very good TOC! They wanted 4-car trains, but the DfT forced them to have 3-car trains. How DafT!

 

[Whistler40145]

jcollins, where would the 172s be cascaded to when all the relevant lines are electrified?

 

[northwichcat]

jcollins, where would the 172s be cascaded to when all the relevant lines are electrified?

Can you explain what you mean by 'relevant lines'?

Northern will have a collection of 273 Pacers and Sprinters by December. These will all be life expired by the 2024-2029 CP.

If we're lucky by 2019 we'll have Chester-Crewe, part of North TPE, the Midland Mainline and the Valley lines electrified. They'll still be hundreds of DMUs needing to be replaced by newer DMUs in the North alone.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry, I meant the lines in the Northwest Electrification Project.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, I meant the lines in the Northwest Electrification Project.

Well an easy answer then, order 172s for TPE now and when cascaded 185s are available use the 172s to indirectly replace Pacers. There's over 100 Pacers to replace and given the Northwest Electrification is supposed to add over 200 additional carriages to the Network I can't see that many Pacers being withdrawn as a direct result of it.

I thought you were getting at the 'DMUs should last 25-30 years' and 'most lines will be electrified before then' argument.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes TPE said it themselves
'Weve been awarded a 3 year contract extension on a do nothing basis, the Scotland EMU introduction will naturally occur during this time period but as the stock hasnt been ordered yet its not in the contract. We expect to negotiate a seperate contract to introduce it into service once the stock has been ordered.'

Barry Doe in last Rail had a quite insightful comment as well, last year rail passengers increased by 6% but seats operated only increased by 5.8%, at the same time Manchester and Leeds in 2010 had between 11 and 14% more than the allowed 35% standing cap. For a long time the government has not been doing crowding surveys outside London and the South East, they may find when they do a rather embarassing and costly problem already waiting for them before annual growth is factored in.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can you explain what you mean by 'relevant lines'?

Northern will have a collection of 273 Pacers and Sprinters by December. These will all be life expired by the 2014-2019 CP.

You mean by the start of CP6, ie 2020?

However Porterbrook have just announced that at least some Sprinters, the 156s, are now getting life extension work:

Porterbrook Awards Overhaul Contract to RailCare

Porterbrook has awarded a contract to RailCare for C6 overhauls to Class 153 and 156 fleets.

As part of the overhaul Porterbrook has taken the decision to undertake the additional work necessary to make the Class 156 fleet compliant with the 1 st January 2020 Passengers of Reduced Mobility Technical Specification for Interoperability (PRM TSI) regulations. This means that rather than replacing the fleet before that date with new trains the 156s will be available to the next long term franchisee for the full length of the franchise if so required.

 

[northwichcat]

You mean by the start of CP6, ie 2020?

I meant 2024-2029 not 2014-2019.

 

[tbtc]

Barry Doe in last Rail had a quite insightful comment as well, last year rail passengers increased by 6% but seats operated only increased by 5.8%

Thats a really interesting stat

I'm actually surprised that the increase in seats was almost as much as the increase in passenger numbers (though I guess that'll be skewed by it being restricted to certain lines - e.g. Edinburgh - Bathgate has more than double the seats it used to have whilst most lines have no change in seating capacity)

 

[DarloRich]

FTPE seem to do a good job with the cards they hold. I think this move is to bring the TPE franchise in line with other franchises.

I think the bigger question is; do you think TPE and Northern should be merged?

 

[Whistler40145]

It puzzles me that FTPE & Northern more or less shadow each others areas & services when one large franchise would have been beneficial & less confusing to passengers & also would have made improvements to allocation of rolling stock to services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It puzzles me that FTPE & Northern more or less shadow each others areas & services when one large franchise would have been beneficial & less confusing to passengers & also would have made improvements to allocation of rolling stock to services.

This point is obviously in the mind of those who made the recent First TPE franchaise extension to tally with the Northen franchaise period end. 2014 gives a good time period in which to fully consider all matters.

 

[northwichcat]

It puzzles me that FTPE & Northern more or less shadow each others areas & services when one large franchise would have been beneficial & less confusing to passengers & also would have made improvements to allocation of rolling stock to services.

Depends at how you look at it though. If Arriva North West announced they were taking over National Express operations in the area and will be using the Arriva brand, you'd probably dread an ordinary Arriva bus turning up on a Blackpool-Sheffield service on which you were booked even though you certainly wouldn't complain if a coach turned up for a Liverpool Airport-Liverpool City Centre journey you were making.

I do realise Northern have some long routes and TPE run some shorter services but do we just need a better division between long and short?

 

[tbtc]

It puzzles me that FTPE & Northern more or less shadow each others areas & services when one large franchise would have been beneficial & less confusing to passengers & also would have made improvements to allocation of rolling stock to services.

I think that the point is that the Northern franchise is already very large and varied - however ungainly it is at the moment it'd be worse with the complication of running TPE too.

There's various different ways of doing it, but I think the only way forward is to split the routes between at least two TOCs - you could do it east/west (like ATN/ FNW), you could merge certain services into the West Coast/East Coast/ EMT franchises (e.g. the "stand alone" Tyne/Tees services could go to East Coast).

However, the existing Northern franchise is at the far end of being "manageable" (size wise), so adding another sixty trains on top of this would be an operational nightmare (in my eyes)

 

[Whistler40145]

I think Virgin West Coast should run the current FTPE Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh service using Pendolinos or 350/380 stock (with upgraded interiors & seating to the same standard as a Pendolinos).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think Virgin West Coast should run the current FTPE Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh service using Pendolinos or 350/380 stock (with upgraded interiors & seating to the same standard as a Pendolinos).

On a humerous aside to your posting, the Class 142 Pacers that use Manchester Airport look pathetic against the Class 185 units there....can you imagine how a combination of these Pacers would look compared to Virgin Pendolinos at the platforms at Manchester Airport railway station to newly-arrived incoming visitors from abroad?

They would think that the Metrolink extension had been completed early

 

[Whistler40145]

Yep, visitors may think the Pacers were run by Trotters Independent Traders!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think Virgin West Coast should run the current FTPE Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh service using Pendolinos or 350/380 stock (with upgraded interiors & seating to the same standard as a Pendolinos).

I doubt a 390 would fit at MIA without serious remodelling.

can you imagine how a combination of these Pacers would look compared to Virgin Pendolinos at the platforms at Manchester Airport railway station

Yeah, one would look like a half decent train, and one would have a curvy nose!

Yep, visitors may think the Pacers were run by Trotters Independent Traders!

And a 390 would look like it was designed by someone who had no concept of how to design a train!

 

[Whistler40145]

A shortened 390 set might, but that would be illogical.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah, one would look like a half decent train, and one would have a curvy nose!

To call Class 142 Pacers "half decent" trains is being very kind to them.

The description of them by TimSYoung40145 as being something run by Trotters Independant Traders is much nearer the mark.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

To call Class 142 Pacers "half decent" trains is being very kind to them.

So a train that was dirt cheap to build, ergo saving many branchlines, such as Rose Grove-Colne, Carnforth-Hellifield and Nunthorpe-Whitby, has served its purpose well for over 25 years, over the best view from any train in Britain, and has a half-decent capacity isn't half-decent? :roll:

A 390, on the other hand, cost over £1,000,000 a carriage, and still overs you a great view of a piece of plastic from some seats...