Heaton Chapel on Sundays

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2023

Does anyone know why Heaton Chapel has such a random Sunday service? It seems to be made up of calls on all manner of random services to/from random destinations with some very long gaps (about 3 hours over lunch for instance), yet these are services which mostly run hourly or two hourly clockface or very close to it.

Why doesn't it just have an hourly or even two hourly call in one of the services?

I would have thought that it would be harder to path such a random service, not easier.

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ReturnToSPT · 2 Nov 2023

Would love to know the reasoning for this. Surely less traffic on the network on a Sunday too so should be easy to get eg the Crewe service to call every house as in the week? Makes the whole area car dependent on Sundays as huge gaps in service. Same for levenshulme.

Mcr Warrior · 2 Nov 2023

Bletchleyite said:
Does anyone know why Heaton Chapel has such a random Sunday service? It seems to be made up of calls on all manner of random services to/from random destinations with some very long gaps (about 3 hours over lunch for instance), yet these are services which mostly run hourly or two hourly clockface or very close to it.

Bletchleyite said:
Why doesn't it just have an hourly or even two hourly call in one of the services?

I'd certainly agree that the service intervals in the Manchester Piccadilly direction (which is where all Northbound trains calling at Heaton Chapel will be headed) are somewhat random on a Sunday, including a couple of calls from trains originating at Chester.

Makes the service provision at Heaton Chapel on a Sunday almost seem like an afterthought!

In the other direction, however, it's an hourly service by trains which call at Heaton Chapel on Sundays (then Stockport and most/all stations to Buxton) at broadly clockface times between 0859 and 2259, albeit nothing calling at or around 0959, as, for some reason, that particular Buxton train runs fast through Heaton Chapel.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2023

Mcr Warrior said:
I'd certainly agree that the service intervals in the Manchester Piccadilly direction (which is where all Northbound trains calling at Heaton Chapel will be headed) are somewhat random on a Sunday, including a couple of calls from trains originating at Chester. Makes the service provision at Heaton Chapel on a Sunday seem like an afterthought!

In the other direction, however, it's an hourly service by trains which call at Heaton Chapel on Sundays (then Stockport and most/all stations to Buxton) at broadly clockface times between 0859 and 2259, albeit nothing calling at or around 0959, as that particular Buxton train runs fast through Heaton Chapel.

That is utterly bizarre. 14 trains southbound, near enough hourly except the missing one, only 8 northbound with several long gaps, made up of one Buxton, one Macclesfield, two Crewes, five Stokes and two Chester via Altrincham.

On a weekday the Buxton always (or nearly always) calls, so why can't it be the same on a Sunday? The main constraint on paths is presumably the 3tph Avanti, and that's the same every day.

Most notably it lacks a "just after lunch" train to go Sunday shopping, which seems to be throwing traffic away. 1422 is a bit late for that, you'd want about 1300-1330.

Mind you out of the services it involves, it's only the Buxton that is anything like clockface, the other ones are rather random.

jonnyfan · 2 Nov 2023

The Sunday timetable needs a good re-write, just like they did with the Mon-Sat timetable which gives a pretty much clockface timetable all day.
On Sundays the Buxton's interwork with the Chester's, which gives some trains limited turnaround times at Piccadilly. Also the Crewe line uses only 2 units on a Sunday, so turnarounds are very tight (only 4 minutes at Piccadilly) so calls at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel just aren't possible.
If they re-did the timetable and diagramming for the Buxton and Chester services, I reckon you can easily get the Buxton's to serve both stations every hour, in both directions.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2023

That missing 0959 is probably a fair annoyance too, as anyone wanting to go for a walk in the Peak would presumably aim for the 0859, but in the likely event of that being cancelled (well, it is Northern) that's your day out ruined.

At least it's not as much a mess as it would have been had that hair-brained scheme to change to paired by speed from the present paired by direction layout gone ahead. That would have meant Levvy and HC calls on the fast line in one direction, and thus a very odd service pattern.

Watershed · 2 Nov 2023

Another constraint is the mess of different line blockages between Piccadilly and Slade Lane Jn on Sunday mornings.

These are to allow for track inspections, which are obviously important and need to be done at some point. But rather than having them at a consistent time year round or, perish the thought, having them during the night with good lighting, they vary by lettered timetable period (4-8 week subdivisions of the timetable) depending on daylight hours.

With Slade Lane Jn and the Piccadilly throat being single lead constraints for many moves (e.g. trains to/from the Styal line that need to cross to/from the Fast lines), and lots of irregularly timed ECS moves off Longsight, this makes it near impossible to produce a clockface timetable.

Add on the desire of TOCs such as Northern to run a reduced timetable because they still don't have Sunday in the working week on the west side, and this is the outcome. Something has to give and unfortunately it's the local stations to the south of Manchester.

hexagon789 · 2 Nov 2023

Bletchleyite said:
That missing 0959 is probably a fair annoyance too, as anyone wanting to go for a walk in the Peak would presumably aim for the 0859, but in the likely event of that being cancelled (well, it is Northern) that's your day out ruined.

At least it's not as much a mess as it would have been had that hair-brained scheme to change to paired by speed from the present paired by direction layout gone ahead. That would have meant Levvy and HC calls on the fast line in one direction, and thus a very odd service pattern.

Ironically, OTT gives the 0859 a 100% for running reliability for the past 12 weeks, albeit late running 60% of the time.

I was curious!

jfollows · 2 Nov 2023

Bletchleyite said:
At least it's not as much a mess as it would have been had that hair-brained scheme to change to paired by speed from the present paired by direction layout gone ahead. That would have meant Levvy and HC calls on the fast line in one direction, and thus a very odd service pattern.

The full "proposal" shown in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-south-remodelling-proposals-historical.241695/ had four platforms at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2023

jfollows said:
The full "proposal" shown in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-south-remodelling-proposals-historical.241695/ had four platforms at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel.

Thanks. It was a while ago, but I think it was then scaled back to local calls on the fast line, which would have been nuts, as the cost of 4 platforms at both of those locations would have been quite high - both sites are quite constrained.

ReturnToSPT · 2 Nov 2023

Wonder if anyone knows of any plans to rectify this in any upcoming timetable changes? As suggested by @jonnyfan stops by every Buxton train should be possible without too much disruption.

Jamesrob637 · 7 Nov 2023

Very bizarre. Even Davenport and Woodsmoor see a train every hour in both directions on a Sunday.

Mcr Warrior · 7 Nov 2023

Jamesrob637 said:
Even Davenport and Woodsmoor see a train every hour in both directions on a Sunday.

Aren't they invariably always served by Buxton trains, which, at most times of the day, seem to run fast through both Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme inbound to Manchester Piccadilly on Sundays?

Think that there are something like 14 direct services calling at Heaton Chapel, Davenport and Woodsmoor on a Sunday (all continuing to Buxton) but only 1 doing both in the Manchester direction.

Jamesrob637 · 7 Nov 2023

Mcr Warrior said:
Aren't they invariably always served by Buxton trains, which, at most times of the day, seem to run fast through both Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme inbound to Manchester Piccadilly on Sundays?

Think that there are something like 14 direct services calling at Heaton Chapel, Davenport and Woodsmoor on a Sunday (all continuing to Buxton) but only 1 doing both in the Manchester direction.

Only the first train of the day from Buxton calls at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

Starmill · 7 Nov 2023

Bletchleyite said:
That is utterly bizarre. 14 trains southbound, near enough hourly except the missing one, only 8 northbound with several long gaps, made up of one Buxton, one Macclesfield, two Crewes, five Stokes and two Chester via Altrincham.

On a weekday the Buxton always (or nearly always) calls, so why can't it be the same on a Sunday? The main constraint on paths is presumably the 3tph Avanti, and that's the same every day.

Most notably it lacks a "just after lunch" train to go Sunday shopping, which seems to be throwing traffic away. 1422 is a bit late for that, you'd want about 1300-1330.

Mind you out of the services it involves, it's only the Buxton that is anything like clockface, the other ones are rather random.

It could be worse. Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel could have the same service as Bramhall. Or Fairfield.

Jamesrob637 said:
Very bizarre. Even Davenport and Woodsmoor see a train every hour in both directions on a Sunday.

And Gorton has two. Which is twice what it has Monday - Saturday.

Bletchleyite said:
Why doesn't it just have an hourly or even two hourly call in one of the services?

The answer to this is that it did in December 2017 and prior, because there was 1tph Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly, half of which continued to and from Crewe. In May 2018 the service from Crewe was increased to hourly, which was achieved only by binning the calls at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel.

It may be possible to restore some of the calls by removing them at Chelford and Goostrey, but for political reasons that probably won't happen.

Jamesrob637 · 8 Nov 2023

Starmill said:
It could be worse. Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel could have the same service as Bramhall. Or Fairfield.

And Gorton has two. Which is twice what it has Monday - Saturday.

The answer to this is that it did in December 2017 and prior, because there was 1tph Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly, half of which continued to and from Crewe. In May 2018 the service from Crewe was increased to hourly, which was achieved only by binning the calls at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel.

It may be possible to restore some of the calls by removing them at Chelford and Goostrey, but for political reasons that probably won't happen.

Call at one of Goostrey or Chelford, and one of Heaton Chapel or Levenshulme. Heaton Chapel best as Levenshulme is a bit more pleasant on the bus (not as far into Manchester or back)

Sorted.

TT-ONR-NRN · 10 Nov 2023

It does seem odd when you consider just how much goes through.

Jamesrob637 · 10 Nov 2023

TT-ONR-NRN said:
It does seem odd when you consider just how much goes through.

Not sure how well you know the area. However, those who live at the bottom of what is collectively known as the "Four Heatons" can walk to Stockport in the same time as they can walk to Heaton Chapel from where at least there are many trains to and from Manchester, even on a Sunday.

Bletchleyite · 10 Nov 2023

Jamesrob637 said:
Not sure how well you know the area. However, those who live at the bottom of what is collectively known as the "Four Heatons" can walk to Stockport in the same time as they can walk to Heaton Chapel from where at least there are many trains to and from Manchester, even on a Sunday.

It is however quite a well off area, which means they won't, they'll go by car.

Starmill · 12 Nov 2023

Jamesrob637 said:
Not sure how well you know the area. However, those who live at the bottom of what is collectively known as the "Four Heatons" can walk to Stockport in the same time as they can walk to Heaton Chapel from where at least there are many trains to and from Manchester, even on a Sunday.

Erm, Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel are two of the busiest commuter stations in the county?

323235 · 13 Nov 2023

This all stems from the 2018 timetable mess as Heaton Chapel and Levenshume used to have a regular Sunday service in both directions prior to this. I did raise the issue with our Stockport MP.

ayubdaud · 8 Jan 2024

I am led to believe that the gaps in calling pattern will be addressed in the June timetable.

Jamesrob637 · 11 Jan 2024

ayubdaud said:
I am led to believe that the gaps in calling pattern will be addressed in the June timetable.

With the ex-Buxton, ex-Crewe or both? The service towards Stockport (and Buxton) is adequate, but the 09:49 from Piccadilly really needs to plus the 2-hour morning gap, otherwise it's fine.

scrapy · 11 Jan 2024

323235 said:
This all stems from the 2018 timetable mess as Heaton Chapel and Levenshume used to have a regular Sunday service in both directions prior to this. I did raise the issue with our Stockport MP.

Yes think there was 2tph on a Sunday at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme pre 2018. The Buxton services called as did the Alderley Edge/Crewe services. (Only 1tp2 hours continued to Crewe on Sundays pre 2018)

323235 · 11 Jan 2024

ayubdaud said:
I am led to believe that the gaps in calling pattern will be addressed in the June timetable.

June timetable?

The Planner · 12 Jan 2024

323235 said:
June timetable?

Yes, it moves to June instead of May for this year.

Jamesrob637 · 12 Jan 2024

The Planner said:
Yes, it moves to June instead of May for this year.

Very beginning of June though, not the third Monday as has previously been the case in May, so it's not a calendar month or even 4 weeks later.

ayubdaud · 13 Jan 2024

Jamesrob637 said:
With the ex-Buxton, ex-Crewe or both? The service towards Stockport (and Buxton) is adequate, but the 09:49 from Piccadilly really needs to plus the 2-hour morning gap, otherwise it's fine.

From Piccadilly it is 2B02 presumably to fit the pattern. The other way I think is the Crewe train but really could be anything.

tomoufc · 15 Jan 2024

Both Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme should have at least 4tph each day. The Sunday service is a disgrace, making the railways effectively unusable for most purposes. Coming up from the South on a Sunday I more often than not have to change for a 192 bus at Stockport. A half hourly clockface timetable would effectively re-open many longer distance journeys that were far more effective prior to the Covid cuts.

Bletchleyite · 15 Jan 2024

tomoufc said:
Both Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme should have at least 4tph each day.

I agree, but for that you need HS2 2B to gain the capacity.

Heaton Chapel on Sundays

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