Evolution
Member
Goodness, that's shocking. No disrespect to any train cleaners, they do a wonderful job for low pay but utlising a driver to help clean the train isn't the most cost efficient way of doing things.
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Lumo - Qualified Driver - Newcastle (17/01/24)
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357
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I help our staff when I'm pass, I've helped clean, I've put out seat reservations, and I've given out food/drink orders at-seat. However if I've got another train to drive and I'm shattered I'll have a nap instead. Never had any bad feelings if I haven't offered to help.
On the other hand some staff would prefer you don't help them, they feel bad about it.
notadriver
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As a coach driver on a fraction of a train drivers wage I clean the vehicle in and out including picking up rubbish, sweeping etc. why should train drivers be exempt ?
class ep-09
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Quite difference between cleaning a coach of 20m and tran of 260m , innit ?
Especially if you have 7min to turn around and go back , where you came from ( or as littles as 2-3min if short 2-3 carriage train) .
As for cleaning outside - there are mechanical washers to do so .
Ah and also - if it is not in train drivers contract , then why they should do it?
Evolution
Member
I think you've answered your own question really- it isn't economically viable to use a finite resource (that's expensive) to do a job that can be done at a fraction of the cost. It's basic economics, drivers are better utilised doing what they are paid to do.. driving trains! This provides the greater ROI for the employers.
It's irrelevant what you do as a coach driver, as 357 mentioned above they will help pick litter up when they can but this isn't a contractual requirement as per the Lumo role, that's the difference.
Let's not turn this into another Train Driver vs Bus/Coach driver thread
Why do you think airline pilots don't go collect rubbish during their turnaround times?
NE1
New Member
Let me clarify this as I work there. Last train in to London is taken ECS to depot and the driver then gets taxi to hotel. There are cleaners at the depot who do the cleaning before the unit is taken out in service.
We have turnaround cleaners at KGX and EDB. We are not diagrammed to do any cleaning. If we have time and not having a break, some drivers just chip in to help with picking the rubbish as that's just how we are.
We have turnaround cleaners at KGX and EDB. We are not diagrammed to do any cleaning. If we have time and not having a break, some drivers just chip in to help with picking the rubbish as that's just how we are.
theironroad
Established Member
Always good to have facts rather than a mate of a mate said. Thanks.
RollingStock19
Member
Most of us would offer the onboard team some assistance, but usually, it would be just going through and asking the punters for rubbish... anything other than that we'd probably just get in their way and slow things down for them. You dont have to, but if you want some company going for dinner on your lodge its probably nice to get off on the right foot..
Not obliged to, judging by your comments this conversation must have been a looooong time ago. There are cleaners at Kings Cross and Edinburgh.
You never clean a train when its going on depot for a night, and that shift no longer exists.
I guess being a new company and not many of us there isn't many people to kill the rumours. We always get asked the old "Is it true you have to do the trolley as well?" ... I mean it gladly push the trolly for over 60k a year, luckily they have staff who are much better (and prettier) than me to do it
You say that, but…
Some jobs are better than others, but lodging, and being expected to clean trains in the middle of the night etc. really does sound pretty grim.
LUMO drivers take dispatch risk, too.
RollingStock19
Member
Luckily, that was never the case... There was a bit of misinformation there. You'd never clean a train when its on a depot. I cant say I've cleaned a train in a long time, especially since we got cleaners at the stations.
Crossed posts. Thanks for clarifying.
They certainly won’t be paying you £60k a year to push a trolley, however they might be paying you that to drive the trains, and then cheekily expecting you to do more besides.
I understand the idea of mucking in if you’re spending a night lodging with colleagues. The risk is that the company will load more and more jobs onto staff who are there to perform other functions, and use that as a way to under resource.
Thanks. It’s interesting that you were previously expected to clean trains? And what happens now if you terminate somewhere that doesn’t have a depot? The best thing for you guys really is ASLEF being recognised.
Another question I have is how do rostering arrangements work? Presumably there’s no such thing as agreements (how could there be if there’s no union to negotiate), so is everything just dictated by the company?
I completely get how someone who earns a lot less outside the industry, and just wants to get a key, would view training up as a driver with Lumo as a good opportunity. It’s more difficult to see how it’s an attractive proposition for qualified drivers from TOCs, though.
Perhaps that’s part of the reason why their only traincrew depot is in Newcastle, where there aren’t many similar roles to choose from.
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If people want to keep discussing the merits of drivers cleaning trains more generally, please could you take that to a new thread. Can we please keep the discussion relevant to those interested in the actual vacancy as it exists.
RollingStock19
Member
We are ASLEF recognised. We were never expected to clean trains, I don't get where this has come from lol ... trains always end up on a Hitachi depot/siding where they have cleaning staff. We have one turn a week that goes onto Heaton at NCL where the onboard team clean it (but it was previously cleaned in Edinburgh, does a 1hr 20 min trip to NCL and terminates, so its not usually to bad.. and the guys are great at managing this to make their job easier/quicker at Newcastle)
It was dictated by the company but we have a working group that meets with the management and there's a fairly good relationship so changes have been made, our scheduling agreement is different to what it was when we first started. I think the company have been quite good, ive worked for companies where the answer to everything is NO, Lumo have worked with us to make the work/life balance better. ASLEF are in but that hopefully wont change the working relationship we have with the management team. Time will tell I suppose.
Fair point - not my intention to discuss the merits, merely that it’s relevant to the proposition. Qualified drivers on £60 - 70k won’t be used to doing cleaning duties. It sounds like that was a bit of a myth, in any case.
Thanks - there has been some misinformation for sure, so it’s good to hear from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.
NE1
New Member
I will second what has been said here.
I enjoy working at Lumo, I came in with my eyes wide open and knew exactly what would be different from other TOCs. It won't be most folks cup of tea I get that but I can't knock the place.
357
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Yeah it would have been soon after operations started.
Very glad to see that shift no longer exists. It sounded horrible.
See above.
RollingStock19
Member
It was once a week on the link, so you didnt get it often. Everytime I done it I got into Kings Cross early so managed to get to the hotel and was in bed before the relieving driver even got up
Are you a qualified driver who joined from a TOC? If so, what motivated you to join?
I gather you guys were trained up from scratch. Have any of your colleagues left for driving roles at TOCs, out of interest?
What’s the typical profile of qualified driver who joins Lumo, and where do they tend to come from?
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357
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To be honest, Lumo have not done a very good job at dispelling these myths about them in the industry. I can't even see the salary on the job advert. Hull Trains on the other hand seem to know what a qualified driver wants to know when they write their adverts:
One guy from our place went over and left again very quickly.
RollingStock19
Member
You said that without explaining why...
There was only one person who left and went back to their TOC...and that was in the early days when the company was setting up? and im sure there was some personal reasons involved too....
Working for a start-up company isn't for everyone, there was a lot of flexibility involved in the beginning.. its settled down now.
Different TOCs suit different people, I was new to rail, part of the initial intake "off the street" so I probably have a slightly different view to some of you more experienced guys.
And yet the job adverts tend to be written by First Group, not the individual TOCs. Why should they dispel anything? These myths are nothing but rumours and gossip, (I've learned the railway thrives on this) if you have a serious interest in joining you'd do your research, or at least attend an interview and ask the questions. What do you want, a job advert with "Our drivers dont clean trains" on? haha
I think people forget it was a start up, during the back end of COVID... the fact that we even got up and running when we did was impressive if you knew what was going on in the background lol, a lot has changed since 2021.
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357
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When I was interested I specifically emailed the companies I was interested in applying for asking about rosters and diagrams. Lumo was the only one who refused to share the information and as a result I spoke to a driver at KGX to try and get the information I was after.
I'm glad to hear that, it's decent traction on a decent route and from what you've said in this thread it certainly seems that the things that put me and others off have been or are in the process of being fixed.
The cleaning/trolley thing comes from what was written on the original advert for qualified drivers before operations started!
RollingStock19
Member
Probably because there wasn't much of a link at the time, so maybe not much to share.
They are new, try to do things differently... sometimes it works, sometimes the old way is best! but you know what.. they take the feedback and things do mostly change. Up to now they've been pretty spot on...
It is in the contract that you can undertake ambassador duties, but that could be collecting a bit of rubbish. We were meant to be trained up but so far thats not happened and in all honesty, drivers and needed to drive! we dont often have the spare capacity to have drivers working as ambassadors.
It has happened, but purely voluntarily, we're a pretty small team... if you want company at dinner, its best to chip in or theres going to be a lot of room service meals for one
At least that’s written in a way a train driver would appreciate. What about the pension?
And that research might be being conducted on here. So, if I was a LNER driver at Newcastle, I’d be earning £70k+, for no lodging, doing equivalent work. Why would I want to join LUMO?
Sell it to me…
tiptoptaff
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Probably similar to LUMO, its a FG company pension scheme, not RPS
NCL have lodging, though...
One voluntary link, isn’t it?
tiptoptaff
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Not 100% sure of their link structure, but the link that signs Inverness and Aberdeen has lodge turns for those trains
RollingStock19
Member
Realistically, if you're on 70k a year an LNER, why would you be looking to jump ship? So no need to sell...
But if you're at another TOC, maybe moved away to drive trains and now want to come home, it may appeal.
Like I've said before, different TOCs offer different things... not every TOC is suited for every person, and not every person is suited for every TOC
Would they allow relocation though? They might as its a qualified ad, but it's not clear they will:
RollingStock19
Member
They have done this previously, but probably a question that needs to be asked.
Evolution
Member
Good point, I'd forgotten about that.
You've mentioned that a few times, from previous experience of corporate dinners, they are sometimes better eaten alone rather than spending hours talking about work, outside of work with questionable company
You'd have to be completely mad to leave LNER, XC, TPE, Northern or Grand Central down the road in Sunderland to join this outfit. It might appeal to a Tyne & Wear Metro driver as a stepping stone but don't think they are recognised as qualifieds IIRC.
I'd categorise them in the same bracket as your ROG, DC rail and those sort of companies, might be ok for some old boys who've cashed their pensions in and want a bit of high speed action on the ECML.
They are the sort of company to get a key do a few years and get out IMO. That's why I think they will struggle to recruit qualifieds, you'd choose Grand Central or Hull trains out of the OA operators over Lumo.
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