Do deep-level Tube trains have heating?

H&I · 15 Jan 2024

Intuitively, it would seem like deep-level Tube trains don’t need heating as the trains are heated by the tunnels naturally, but Central line trains on the Hainault shuttle still feel warm inside despite being outside all day. Do these trains have heating that the driver can switch on if needed, and if so, are they usually switched on in winter? Do these heaters switch off when in tunnels?

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Dstock7080 · 15 Jan 2024

Heating on modern trains is thermostatically controlled, once the switch is on.
1972 Stock are still manually operated, on or off.
Before thermostats on trains, stations would have manually displayed “H ON” and “H OFF” boards to indicate what the crew should do.

Daniel · 15 Jan 2024

Yes, at least the Northern Line has "Saloon Heat & Vent" which should be automatic based on the ambient temperature, but can be isolated by the driver.

H&I · 15 Jan 2024

Dstock7080 said:
Heating on modern trains is thermostatically controlled, once the switch is on.
1972 Stock are still manually operated, on or off.
Before thermostats on trains, stations would have manually displayed “H ON” and “H OFF” boards to indicate what the crew should do.

Daniel said:
Yes, at least the Northern Line has "Saloon Heat & Vent" which should be automatic based on the ambient temperature, but can be isolated by the driver.

Thank you both for the insight!

Mawkie · 16 Jan 2024

H&I said:
Intuitively, it would seem like deep-level Tube trains don’t need heating as the trains are heated by the tunnels naturally, but Central line trains on the Hainault shuttle still feel warm inside despite being outside all day. Do these trains have heating that the driver can switch on if needed, and if so, are they usually switched on in winter? Do these heaters switch off when in tunnels?

The Piccadilly line 73 Stock has thermostatically controlled heating and ventilation. The heaters are fed from the 630v system.

Screenshot_2024-01-16-08-26-03-91_e2d5b3f32b79de1d45acd1fad96fbb0f.jpg

Here is a basic diagram illustrating the 630v power supply and distribution of the 73 Stock. You will see each car has heating, it is actually 4.2kW per car. The saloon heaters are indicated by the red arrows in the picture below should you wish sit above them

The ventilation is provided by 7 large roof mounted fans in each car, 2 of which are inverter fed from the batteries.

H&I · 16 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
The Piccadilly line 73 Stock has thermostatically controlled heating and ventilation. The heaters are fed from the 630v system.

View attachment 150504
Here is a basic diagram illustrating the 630v power supply and distribution of the 73 Stock. You will see each car has heating, it is actually 4.2kW per car. The saloon heaters are indicated by the red arrows in the picture below should you wish sit above them
View attachment 150505

The ventilation is provided by 7 large roof mounted fans in each car, 2 of which are inverter fed from the batteries.

Very detailed. Thank you!

Nym · 16 Jan 2024

2009TS on the other hand does not have any saloon heating.
The only LU train that doesn’t.

BJames · 16 Jan 2024

Nym said:
2009TS on the other hand does not have any saloon heating.
The only LU train that doesn’t.

I did wonder this, when I'm at Seven Sisters in the winter and a train has come in empty from the depot, it's actually quite cold - one of the only times I ever experience the Victoria line in that way. Warms up quickly enough but still.

43066 · 16 Jan 2024

H&I said:
Intuitively, it would seem like deep-level Tube trains don’t need heating as the trains are heated by the tunnels naturally, but Central line trains on the Hainault shuttle still feel warm inside despite being outside all day. Do these trains have heating that the driver can switch on if needed, and if so, are they usually switched on in winter? Do these heaters switch off when in tunnels?

Only the Waterloo and City is entirely underground (including the depot). So the rest will definitely need heating for the above ground sections!

Springs Branch · 17 Jan 2024

H&I said:
Intuitively, it would seem like deep-level Tube trains don’t need heating as the trains are heated by the tunnels naturally . . .

43066 said:
Only the Waterloo and City is entirely underground (including the depot). So the rest will definitely need heating for the above ground sections!

I read somewhere (some time ago) that despite the "Underground" name, significantly more than 50% of LU's mileage was above ground.

Obviously a huge fraction of the ridership is within central areas, not at suburban extremities, so most people's 'lived experience' is that tube trains spend almost all their lives underground.

I'm assuming the >50% quoted above counted Sub Surface Lines as well as the Deep Tubes (and would have been before the Jubilee got to Stratford), but still it indicates the need to have heating on tube rolling stock (Victoria and W&C excepted, of course).

Mikey C · 17 Jan 2024

It doesn't help on the surface (other than S stock) having all the doors open, and massive ones too, in relation to the size of the trains.

Joe Paxton · 17 Jan 2024

Springs Branch said:
I read somewhere (some time ago) that despite the "Underground" name, significantly more than 50% of LU's mileage was above ground.

The common figure given is that only 45% of LU's network is actually underground. (Of course mammy moons ago, the concept of the 'Underground network' and what constituted it was rather looser than it is now.)

Disappointingly a quick search failed to find a figure for the proportion of the 'deep level tube lines' (i.e. not the sub-surface lines) that are actually subterranean. I imagine it's out there somewhere!

Mawkie · 17 Jan 2024

Mikey C said:
It doesn't help on the surface (other than S stock) having all the doors open, and massive ones too, in relation to the size of the trains.

The 73 Stock (maybe other stock?) has "Selective Close' on the doors which close all saloon doors except a single leaf end-door and a single leaf of a double door. Can be used in inclement weather or in particularly cold weather I suppose. I don't think it's used much to be honest, but it's there.

Screenshot_2024-01-17-20-54-14-82_92460851df6f172a4592fca41cc2d2e6.jpg

(Image showing Selective Close button)

Dstock7080 · 17 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
The 73 Stock (maybe other stock?) has "Selective Close' on the doors

C Stock were the first to have Selective Close, 1972 Stock doesn’t but subsequent ones (except 2009 and S Stock) do.

rmt4ever · 18 Jan 2024

Mikey C said:
It doesn't help on the surface (other than S stock) having all the doors open, and massive ones too, in relation to the size of the trains.

It doesn’t help that on the District Line (mostly from my experience using these lines) many many Train Drivers disable this helpful function for no reason that I can fathom!

Including recently very late at night on (I think) the last District Line service from Edgware Road. Hardly a passenger in sight, and icy sub zero conditions on the freezing train with the train carriage heating battling on hopelessly, every single passenger door set to remain open for a while, before departure.

Have had similar in very hot summer months at terminus stations, and the AC being effectively useless.

It is just absolutely baffling. Of course the Driver is tucked away nicely I imagine in a lovely warm cabin with their doors sealed closed, but sod the passengers.

Mikey C · 18 Jan 2024

Selective close might be useful at quiet times, but in the morning rush hour all the doors will open at every station, even if it's freezing cold out there. Indeed I've been snowed on when standing near the door

H&I · 20 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
The 73 Stock (maybe other stock?) has "Selective Close' on the doors which close all saloon doors except a single leaf end-door and a single leaf of a double door. Can be used in inclement weather or in particularly cold weather I suppose. I don't think it's used much to be honest, but it's there.
View attachment 150630
(Image showing Selective Close button)

I found a video demonstrating the use of selective close on the Piccadilly line. I have never seen the use of selective close in person at all, even in cold weather.

mmh · 20 Jan 2024

H&I said:
I found a video demonstrating the use of selective close on the Piccadilly line. I have never seen the use of selective close in person at all, even in cold weather.

Likewise, and judging from the confused appearing passengers in that video, neither had they. I'd doubt it was used much at all.

Perhaps they shouldn't have removed the door open buttons from the stock that had them, with them they could be passenger open above ground in bad weather, but without it has to be all doors open!

Mawkie · 20 Jan 2024

Ah, that's an interesting video. Unfortunately, the procedure when using selective door close is to fully re-open the doors before fully closing, so that wasn't followed there.

One snowy day at Cockfosters (a terminus station) - with an unusual 8 or 9 minute turnaround - I used selective door close. Some minutes later I saw a CSA walking briskly along the platform. When he finally got to me, he said he thought I should know half my doors were broken! So it's not just passengers that can be confused by it.

(I still use it regularly at North Ealing (E/B) if I've been a bit fast from South Harrow as it's one of the places where the signalling holds you to time - and 2 or 3 minutes sat there with the doors open feels like an absolute age in freezing weather. No passenger there has seemed confused, so maybe they are more used to it.)

rmt4ever · 20 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
Ah, that's an interesting video. Unfortunately, the procedure when using selective door close is to fully re-open the doors before fully closing, so that wasn't followed there.

One snowy day at Cockfosters (a terminus station) - with an unusual 8 or 9 minute turnaround - I used selective door close. Some minutes later I saw a CSA walking briskly along the platform. When he finally got to me, he said he thought I should know half my doors were broken! So it's not just passengers that can be confused by it.

(I still use it regularly at North Ealing (E/B) if I've been a bit fast from South Harrow as it's one of the places where the signalling holds you to time - and 2 or 3 minutes sat there with the doors open feels like an absolute age in freezing weather. No passenger there has seemed confused, so maybe they are more used to it.)

Thank you very much for being a considerate train driver! I wish you could train up many of your colleagues on the District Line who at Ealing Broadway (etc) seem to enjoy doing the complete opposite and proactively turn the closing doors off, subjecting the passengers to arctic conditions, for no reason.

Mawkie · 20 Jan 2024

oystercash said:
Thank you very much for being a considerate train driver! I wish you could train up many of your colleagues on the District Line who at Ealing Broadway (etc) seem to enjoy doing the complete opposite and proactively turn the closing doors off, subjecting the passengers to arctic conditions, for no reason.

I did see you mention that before. I'm not sure under what circumstances an S Stock driver would leave the doors open at a terminus - I've never seen that at Uxbridge for example. Perhaps someone will be along with a potential reason as to why that might happen.

(As a slight aside, I always open both sides of the saloon doors in Rayners Lane sidings in summer to try and reduce the heat build up before going back east. I'm not sure it actually does anything, but it makes me feel better.)

rebmcr · 20 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
I did see you mention that before. I'm not sure under what circumstances an S Stock driver would leave the doors open at a terminus - I've never seen that at Uxbridge for example. Perhaps someone will be along with a potential reason as to why that might happen.

I've seen many confused passengers sprinting unnecessarily at Hammersmith (Met) when the auto-close is enabled.

Perhaps there should be a mode where the doors nearest the gateline remain open, just to reassure those arriving.

Forty29 · 20 Jan 2024

Joe Paxton said:
The common figure given is that only 45% of LU's network is actually underground. (Of course mammy moons ago, the concept of the 'Underground network' and what constituted it was rather looser than it is now.)

Disappointingly a quick search failed to find a figure for the proportion of the 'deep level tube lines' (i.e. not the sub-surface lines) that are actually subterranean. I imagine it's out there somewhere!

I heard(or read)only 46% is underground, l used this information when doing a family zoom quiz during the lockdown years. Everyone was surprised giving their answers as between 70-80%!

rmt4ever · 20 Jan 2024

Mawkie said:
I did see you mention that before. I'm not sure under what circumstances an S Stock driver would leave the doors open at a terminus - I've never seen that at Uxbridge for example. Perhaps someone will be along with a potential reason as to why that might happen.

(As a slight aside, I always open both sides of the saloon doors in Rayners Lane sidings in summer to try and reduce the heat build up before going back east. I'm not sure it actually does anything, but it makes me feel bett

rebmcr said:
I've seen many confused passengers sprinting unnecessarily at Hammersmith (Met) when the auto-close is enabled.

Perhaps there should be a mode where the doors nearest the gateline remain open, just to reassure those arriving.

Oh please. Maybe a member of staff for every passenger arriving at the station to be on hand to hold their hand!

I am pretty sure this station has a departure board showing the minutes until each train leaves. Also, the door open buttons light up nice and shiny when press-able! What is so confusing about this?

you cant account for idiocy

rebmcr · 20 Jan 2024

oystercash said:
Oh please. Maybe a member of staff for every passenger arriving at the station to be on hand to hold their hand!

I am pretty sure this station has a departure board showing the minutes until each train leaves. Also, the door open buttons light up nice and shiny when press-able! What is so confusing about this?

you cant account for idiocy

I'm not sure whether you intend to come across as being very angry?

rmt4ever · 20 Jan 2024

rebmcr said:
I'm not sure whether you intend to come across as being very angry?

I’m not sure whether you intend to come across as being very energetic?

Tom B · 21 Jan 2024

I've seen selective door close on 73ts about twice - I used to commute on the Picc daily, although not in open sections.
As an aside there were other 'quirks' such as at least one motorman who would, between every station, play about three DVA announcements. And several others would not activate the DVA at all first thing in the morning, you would simply see the sign scrolling "This train is for RAYNERS LANE" and nothing else which certainly appeased this tired traveller.

I suppose that heating on tube stock is a little surplus to requirements given that the only time it'd likely be used is first thing on an open section, the passengers in such a situation would likely be wearing coats etc and after the first trip through the tunnel it'd be warm!

Deepgreen · 21 Jan 2024

A huge issue for TfL is how to cool the deep tubes as they get hotter all the time, and decades of heat generated by motors, other equipment and people has accrued in the tunnels and the surrounding substrate, meaning dissipating it becomes ever more difficult. Obviously, air-conditioning only worsens the problem outside the trains, an issue that New York suffered/s from with their air-con trains and stations so hot the chewing gum on the ground never sets! The London tube is uncomfortably hot sometimes in winter as people are wearing warmer clothes, and often almost unbearable in summer. However, all tube stock has heating because large stretches of route are above ground.

Uk125 · 21 Jan 2024

43066 said:
Only the Waterloo and City is entirely underground (including the depot). So the rest will definitely need heating for the above ground sections!

Really? How did the trains got there at the first place? There must be a track going outside

Sorry for off topic

Mikey C · 21 Jan 2024

Uk125 said:
Really? How did the trains got there at the first place? There must be a track going outside

They are lowered down a hole with a crane

Do deep-level Tube trains have heating?

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