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Storm Isha may affect your journey in parts of England, Scotland and Wales on Sunday 21 and Monday 22 January

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Just changed at Preston and it seemed breezy but otherwise OK - just as well as a Glasgow bound Pendolino arrived and terminated at around 1240 to form a reinstated 1318 back to Euston.

I've just left Preston and the wind is definitely picking up there again. Quite a few large bangs as I was leaving, so assume things have started falling over again on the platforms. I'll be amazed if the roof stays undamaged overnight and into the next storm.
 
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Egg Centric

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On a more practical matter, what would happen to you if your domestic flight did get diverted to an international airport and you didn’t have your passport with you? Presumably you would be barred from leaving the airside part of the airport, if not the plane itself.

Several UK airlines such as EasyJet do not mandate passports for domestic flights, but could/should they become mandatory just in case of such diversions. Perhaps a topic for a new thread?

No. It wouldn't cover people in UK on a visa who don't have a Schengen one for a start.
 

HullRailMan

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Actually I have experience the airlines shrugging their shoulders and taking the life if tough approach as well. Then the court battles to get the compensation as it "extrodinary circumstances". If you see the pictures / reports at Heathrow everytime BA has an IT incident, you will see you are on your own. Other airlines are as bad....

You maybe are entitled to food, but getting it paid back is a challenge. same with hotels if all the ones anywhere near the airport are full you are sleeping on the terminal floor.
Compensation is a completely different matter, and airlines are rightly not expected to offer cash compensation if the situation is beyond their control. The point is, there is a legal duty to provide food and accommodation in the case of an extended delay, ideally provided for you but possibly in the form of a reimbursement. No such protection readily exists for rail passengers.
 

JamieL

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Sorry to divert from the aviation discussion but a good photo here from the Guardian of some of the challenges on the West Highland Line - a fallen tree at Arrochar & Tarbet:
3000.jpg


Article and link:
 

philthetube

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I'll reserve judgement on the suspension of services for now, but it's unacceptable (albeit unsurprising) that TOCs' social media feeds are full of people being left in the lurch when it comes to overnight accommodation - with TOCs going so far as to claim that costs can't be claimed back.
I can see the rules on this changing, it is impossible for rail companies to find accommodation and afford to pay for it for all passengers in these circumstances do not travel warnings should mean travel at your own risk.

It is not wonder that the toc's are keen to cancel.
We do seem to be heading towards a fair weather railway it seems.

Maybe we need a national program of vegetation management involving removing as many lineside trees as possible...
And all trampolines to be licenced and insured, half in just but something needs doing.
 

AndrewE

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Sorry to divert from the aviation discussion but a good photo here from the Guardian of some of the challenges on the West Highland Line - a fallen tree at Arrochar & Tarbet:
3000.jpg


Article and link:
It's hard to believe that that tree has grow so big (presumably over many years) so close to the running line - it looks barely off the sleeper end.
 

JamieL

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It's hard to believe that that tree has grow so big (presumably over many years) so close to the running line - it looks barely off the sleeper end.
I think that stump is just a piece of cut trunk placed vertically. Could be wrong but agree it seems too close to the track.
 
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I think that stump is just a piece of cut trunk iplaced vertically. Could be wrong but agree it seems too close to the track.
That's the top end of the tree which it looks as though has exerted a reasonable amount of tension / compression forces onto the track via the branches at the tip of the tree and I'd say that the person cutting the branches off the trunk (de limbing) has likely not been keen on standing on the sleepers if they are slippy (oil covered whatever) if they need to move backwards quickly, so they have done the cross cut but it looks at first glance like a tree growing next to the sleepers.
 

Watershed

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I can see the rules on this changing, it is impossible for rail companies to find accommodation and afford to pay for it for all passengers in these circumstances do not travel warnings should mean travel at your own risk.
It's been the case for many years now. It has just been ignored by the TOCs in practical terms. If even the airlines - where passenger rights are otherwise far more limited - have to pay for accommodation I find it difficult to see why the rail industry should be 'exempt' from the same kind of rules.

It is not wonder that the toc's are keen to cancel.
Cancelling trains makes no difference in this respect.
 

6Gman

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I can see the rules on this changing, it is impossible for rail companies to find accommodation and afford to pay for it for all passengers in these circumstances do not travel warnings should mean travel at your own risk.

It is not wonder that the toc's are keen to cancel.

And all trampolines to be licenced and insured, half in just but something needs doing.
At the very least there should be firm advice that in such weather they should be put away or heavily secured!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Scotrail closing down early tomorrow night due to Jocelyn

Another storm, Storm Joceyln, is on the way. Once again, all ScotRail services will be suspended from 19.00 on Tuesday night (23 January) and there will be no rush hour services on Wednesday morning, as high winds and heavy rain batter the country once again.

Network Rail has taken the decision to close the railway to passenger services while the worst of the weather hits in order to keep customers and staff safe.

Trains departing before 19:00 will run to their destination but may be delayed by speed restrictions. On Wednesday, all routes will need to be checked for damage in daylight before trains resume.

As with Storm Isha over the weekend, strong winds of up to 70/80 mph are expected. This could lead to trees and other debris falling onto the tracks, trapping trains and putting people in danger.

Maybe one benefit of the high winds will be to remove all the vulnerable tress within falling distance of the railway that NR would struggle to get permission to cut down.
 

181

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Just to confirm:
From 18:00hrs onwards a blanket Emergency Speed Restriction of 50mph applies to the ENTIRE National Rail network. This includes England, Scotland and Wales.
Network Rail Scotland have advised that NO trains are to run in Scotland from 19:00hrs onwards. All trains currently moving will finish their journey ASAP.

What will be put in place to assist passengers and crews who may be stranded in the middle of nowhere (given how rural Scotland is)? Or are they at least running them to places where there are at least hotels?

Dumping people at e.g. Corrour would be quite serious and likely to result in fatalities.


As I understand it all trains that started their journey before 19:00hrs will be allowed to complete it where reasonably possible. In the case of remote stations I’d imagine ScotRail will provide hotels as per the NRCoT because no RRS is available.

Trains in Scotland that are already en route at 19:00 will run through to their destination (with the 40mph - as it is in Scotland - blanket speed restriction applied). No trains will be allowed to start a journey after 19:00. Contrary to your apparent belief, Network Rail Scotland isn't daft enough to dump people at Corrour, Rannoch or even Kildonan overnight in a storm.

That makes more sense than what the post I was replying to said :)

In case anyone is interested, what appears to have happened on the West Highland, according to Realtime Trains, is as follows:

Northbound

12.12 Fort William-Mallaig ran throughout and arrived 9 min late.

09.56 Glasgow-Oban ran throughout and arrived 23 min late.

12.20 Glasgow-Oban/Mallaig ran throughout; Oban portion arrived 45 min late and Mallaig portion 54 min late.

18.21 Glasgow-Oban/Mallaig cancelled.



Southbound


10.06 Mallaig/12.11 Oban-Glasgow ran throughout and arrived 65 min. late.

16.11 Oban-Glasgow terminated at Tyndrum Lower ‘due to severe flooding’, 24 min. late.

(17.04 Oban-Glasgow cancelled, but that’s not in the timetable at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2023/218 UPDATE 18.12 Edinburgh and Glasgow to Crianlarich, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig.pdf, and it says it wasn’t activated until 19.36; does anyone know what that’s about? I doubt if it was intended to run).

16.01 Mallaig/18.11 Oban-Glasgow: Mallaig portion terminated 37 min. late at Fort William, and Oban portion cancelled.

19.00 Fort William -Edinburgh/London cancelled ‘due to planned engineering works’.

18.15 Mallaig-Fort William cancelled.

I presume the Tyndrum termination was unplanned; I wonder what arrangements were made for the passengers or what the units did next. (Presumably they returned to Oban at some point, which I'd guess might have been the best option for some passengers too).

When I first looked late yesterday, the 12.20 and the 16.11 appeared to have vanished after Glenfinnan and departure from Oban respectively, even though it was well past the time at which they now seem to have reached Mallaig/Tyndrum; presumably the further times must have been added later.
 

185143

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Landed at Manchester an hour ago, from Heathrow.

The flight was smooth for the whole way until we began our descent. Got quite bumpy and the captain initiated a go around at 275ft after a couple of sudden gusts. I did have visions of ringing work from Cologne or somewhere after some of yesterday's diversions saying I need my night shift covering tomorrow, I'm stuck in a foreign country with no passport!

It was my first flight with BA, and the captain handled it with humour which went down well in the cabin. "Good evening from North Manchester" was how he began his announcement, calmly explained what had happened and stated he'd rather continue flying than continue the approach in the conditions and he'd have us on the ground as soon as safely possible.

I'd normally roll my eyes at applause on landing, but can say it was justified really. There were people around me who had been disrupted yesterday and earlier today who were very greatful to be back on the ground.

In case anyone is interested, what appears to have happened on the West Highland, according to Realtime Trains, is as follows:

Northbound

12.12 Fort William-Mallaig ran throughout and arrived 9 min late.

09.56 Glasgow-Oban ran throughout and arrived 23 min late.

12.20 Glasgow-Oban/Mallaig ran throughout; Oban portion arrived 45 min late and Mallaig portion 54 min late.

18.21 Glasgow-Oban/Mallaig cancelled.



Southbound


10.06 Mallaig/12.11 Oban-Glasgow ran throughout and arrived 65 min. late.

16.11 Oban-Glasgow terminated at Tyndrum Lower ‘due to severe flooding’, 24 min. late.

(17.04 Oban-Glasgow cancelled, but that’s not in the timetable at https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nrt/dec2023/218 UPDATE 18.12 Edinburgh and Glasgow to Crianlarich, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig.pdf, and it says it wasn’t activated until 19.36; does anyone know what that’s about? I doubt if it was intended to run).

16.01 Mallaig/18.11 Oban-Glasgow: Mallaig portion terminated 37 min. late at Fort William, and Oban portion cancelled.

19.00 Fort William -Edinburgh/London cancelled ‘due to planned engineering works’.

18.15 Mallaig-Fort William cancelled.

I presume the Tyndrum termination was unplanned; I wonder what arrangements were made for the passengers or what the units did next. (Presumably they returned to Oban at some point, which I'd guess might have been the best option for some passengers too).

When I first looked late yesterday, the 12.20 and the 16.11 appeared to have vanished after Glenfinnan and departure from Oban respectively, even though it was well past the time at which they now seem to have reached Mallaig/Tyndrum; presumably the further times must have been added later.
Premier Inn at Oban would be my first thought.
 

Evolution

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I was driving today through some of the worst of it and I must say I was really impressed with the communications about the blanket speed restrictions, obviously these were in the late notice case but the signallers on route all put out general broadcasts as you went through the different cells and even called at terminus stations to reiterate the BSR. It was handled very neatly today by Manchester and York ROC. Keep up the great work guys and girls! :)
 

Failed Unit

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Compensation is a completely different matter, and airlines are rightly not expected to offer cash compensation if the situation is beyond their control. The point is, there is a legal duty to provide food and accommodation in the case of an extended delay, ideally provided for you but possibly in the form of a reimbursement. No such protection readily exists for rail passengers.
The airlines maybe legally obliged to, but reality is they don’t do it and unless you have deep pockets there is nothing you can do about it. That is one for a different thread, but trust me, you end up sleeping on a terminal floor when a greedy airline has overbooked you, with court the only avenue to avoid ending up out of pocket, which takes a lot of time and persistence. Granted they normally pay up before you get to court, but most people have given up long before then. It isn’t until the county court summons hits before they pay up because they know they are in the wrong and don’t want the court case in the press.

Rail is expected to compensate if the the issue is not within their control. So actually rail offers better protection than air.
 

Butts

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The airlines maybe legally obliged to, but reality is they don’t do it and unless you have deep pockets there is nothing you can do about it. That is one for a different thread, but trust me, you end up sleeping on a terminal floor when a greedy airline has overbooked you, with court the only avenue to avoid ending up out of pocket, which takes a lot of time and persistence. Granted they normally pay up before you get to court, but most people have given up long before then. It isn’t until the county court summons hits before they pay up because they know they are in the wrong and don’t want the court case in the press.

Rail is expected to compensate if the the issue is not within their control. So actually rail offers better protection than air.

That is a vast generalisation and not my experience with British Airways.

The compensation element may take a while to be realised but The Duty of Care is normally provided in the form of Hotels and Meals with little reticence.
 

Bletchleyite

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That is a vast generalisation and not my experience with British Airways.

The compensation element may take a while to be realised but The Duty of Care is normally provided in the form of Hotels and Meals with little reticence.

I've also had hotels and meals provided by the orange team with no argument.

Ryanair maybe, but bar Spirit in the US they are in a class of one and easily avoided.
 

156421

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Compensation is a completely different matter, and airlines are rightly not expected to offer cash compensation if the situation is beyond their control. The point is, there is a legal duty to provide food and accommodation in the case of an extended delay, ideally provided for you but possibly in the form of a reimbursement. No such protection readily exists for rail passengers.
Section 28.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoc) states:
If your train is delayed for more than 60 minutes, your Train Company may, in certain circumstances, provide you with meals and refreshments if they are available on the train or in the station, or can reasonably be supplied, and in reasonable relation to the waiting time.
Link to NRCoC

However I've never known an operator bother to provide this and do wonder why it is even in the rules in the first place.
 

Mcr Warrior

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However I've never known an operator bother to provide this and do wonder why it is even in the rules in the first place.
As regards meals and refreshments, I've certainly had complimentary drinks and snacks handed out, this on a Northern service on the Settle and Carlisle line, that was being delayed for 60+ minutes by a preceding, temporarily failed, steam excursion train (running low on water), so it does occasionally happen.
 

Failed Unit

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I've also had hotels and meals provided by the orange team with no argument.

Ryanair maybe, but bar Spirit in the US they are in a class of one and easily avoided.
That is a vast generalisation and not my experience with British Airways.

The compensation element may take a while to be realised but The Duty of Care is normally provided in the form of Hotels and Meals with little reticence.
Actually it is BA that have had the most problems with, they have a whole team looking for loopholes to avoid their legal obligations... One occasion when travelling on business my company managed to find a hotel close to the airport abroad, but there wasn't a single BA member of staff to assist. They hide as well when things go wrong.

But going back to the posters point about you are on your own with rail. This was exactly the kind of act of god situation the airlines would use to avoid giving passengers anything, but the same people as saying that rail companies should be putting people up in hotels. It is a difficult situation as with the same severe weather warning I choose to drive and got stuck on the M6 - I am sleeping in my car.

My BA examples.

1. The aircraft attempted to take off, aborted because of a safety critical problem and returned to the terminal. The flight was then cancelled, no representative from BA present, either sleep in the terminal or sort yourself out a hotel. ( BA claim that the problem was extraordinary circumstances outside the airlines control. Submission to small claims court they backed down.
2. Flight from London - Edinburgh cancelled due to high winds in Scotland, BA informed me by text. Took a train back to Edinburgh. BA claimed that it was extraordinary circumstances and I was entitled to nothing. I my small claims submission I countered that easyjet landed in Edinburgh with the same aircraft type as the time my flight was due to land so it was operational convenience that the cancelled the flight. BA never went to court an paid up.

All airlines seem to take customers for granted. (As do a lot of the TOC to be fair) Maybe I have just had bad experiences,

On the rails, the TOCs need to pay compensation for anything, including when a car decides to turn onto the tracks because they can't tell they are about to drive on a railway line...
 
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