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'Bumping' - is it becoming a serious problem?

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Jamiescott1

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I was at weat Drayton r station yesterday in the ticket hall and all trains were cancelled so therefore all gates were red cross closed. About 30 of us where there.
2 guys arrived and bumped through.
The member of staff just said to them " why bother pushing through the barriers, there's no trains, come back"
 
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43066

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Which is weird as the suburban routes contain major centres all along them on South Eastern Metro. Other networks manage to staff not just either end.

When Abbey Wood saw gates installed and in operation passengers counted/paying went up about 75 per cent with no change in services. A lot of journeys.

They're losing loads by ignoring Plumstead, Blackheath, Charlton etc

This is all true.

On the wider tailgating topic, I just witnessed a guy in a balaclava/ski mask, dressed all in black, casually barge through the tube barriers at my London terminal. He was in a big hurry and had the distinct air of someone who had just done something they shouldn’t have. There is no way gateline staff can realistically challenge someone like that - and frankly they’d be foolhardy to try.

I imagine the risk of being identified via Oyster card/bank card means that many hardened criminals habitually barge through gates as a way of avoiding detection and rapidly disappearing, when they’re “on the job”. If you’ve just mugged someone, tapping your debit card on a barrier wouldn’t be the smartest thing to do!
 
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Recessio

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When Abbey Wood saw gates installed and in operation passengers counted/paying went up about 75 per cent with no change in services. A lot of journeys.
They're losing loads by ignoring Plumstead, Blackheath, Charlton etc
Until people start bumping them, of course!
 

185143

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I was at Norwood Junction on Monday afternoon and in the space of about 2 minutes, 2 out of the 6 people that came through the barriers had paid.

Makes you feel like a mug for paying really when in the rare occasion they do get caught, unless there's Police involvement they'll likely just get abusive/give false details/pull a knife anyway.

I was on a Southeastern service once and someone nearby was being Penalty Fared. The guy didn't offer any grief and was pleasant enough with the inspector in fairness. Then once they'd moved on, began bragging to his mate and someone on the phone that he'd give fake details and got away with it again and that he'd add the notice to the collection on his wall. And this was about 5 years.
 

Fermiboson

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Fare evasion is undoubtedly a real issue. However, half of the people in this thread seem to be under the impression that they are the only honest bloke left in the world and everyone else all around, from the zoomers to the boomers to the poor and the rich and the police and the politicians and what have you, are evil, dishonest, antisocial, selfish assholes. With the utmost possible respect, that doesn't make you a lot different from the people you have just accused of being self-centred exceptionalists.

Yes, culture is a real issue. The NYC metro, for example, is quite notorious for nobody ever paying any fare (the justification I was given is that it's all rubbish anyways, so no point paying for it). When I was visiting with a couple of friends a year or so back, I insisted on buying a ticket. Everyone else, of course, jumped the gate. And while I was fumbling with coins at the ticket machine, one of them held open a ticket barrier for a full minute and kept shouting for me to come through. During this minute, no less than a hundred people of all ages, genders, appearances and races passed through the open barrier, not a single one of them paying anything. Eventually, it simply became too embarassing to keep attempting to pay for the ticket (didn't help that the machine was half broken and laggy, of course).

No, it isn't the zoomers, being influenced by TikTok/the liberals/the SJWs/the nationalists/[insert political position popular among younger people you're angry at at the moment]. Counterculture movements have been a thing since at least the 1700s, and to be honest if someone is fare evading for political reasons, they're far less likely to continue to do so later in life, whereas someone fare evading for monetary gain will continue to do so when given the opportunity until kingdom come. Ideology does not play a role here. We can have legitimate arguments about to what extent social conditions, stagflation, (lack of) enforcement, the education system, negative public image of the police, etc. have on petty crime, but it is extraordinarily unlikely that "these people have been brainwashed into thinking it's okay" is a legitimate answer. This seems to be something of a recurring problem on this forum. <rant>At risk of going off topic, I've seen in multiple other threads claims by certain forum members along the lines of "young people are selfish and don't care for the country anymore", "young people are self-centred, have no respect for others, think anti-social behaviour is okay", etc. and while I fully understand (and agree) that nobody wants to argue politics on a forum about trains, I don't think this kind of BS gets enough pushback. If you do hold this stance, perhaps it would be prudent to think about why "young people" don't get the sense of belonging and responsibility you apparently have, rather than moaning about it. Is it because they have "no stake in society"? (Those who know, know.)</rant>

No, pumping money into the police alone won't work. I would've thought we learned this lesson in the US already. There are many other places in the world, including where I come from, where there are no RPI at all on trains, no staff on the gateline, and no enforcement measure of any sort. And yet, nobody fare dodges, or even really ever contemplates breaking the smallest of rules (no eating/drinking on the metro, etc). The reason for the difference in behaviour can be multifaceted (including the aforementioned cultural issues, customer satisfaction, the cost of the public transport system itself, design of the turnstiles, social security and education, general levels of societal frustration and repression), but it is abundantly clear that having lots of cops in one place might deter people from jumping at that place at that time, but it won't fix the underlying motivations of petty crime. Enforcement is generally a highly ineffective and inefficient method to prevent criminal activity, as opposed to prevention.
 

jon0844

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tl;dr - everyone else went through without paying so you eventually decided you may as well do the same too.

Other people have their reasons to do the same, so they can feel that what they're doing isn't a big problem.

You are right that it's cultural though. I doubt many people in Japan would do it, as they'd consider the shame on their family if caught. In the UK, increasingly people (of all ages; no need to single out youngsters) are so self entitled that they don't care what anyone else thinks - and will potentially get very aggressive if you dare question their actions.

Sadly, unless we can change society, the police are very much necessary. We can of course debate the punishment and attempts to rehabilitate - and that goes for more than fare evasion. It goes for anti-social behaviour in general.
 

Fermiboson

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tl;dr - everyone else went through without paying so you eventually decided you may as well do the same too.

Other people have their reasons to do the same, so they can feel that what they're doing isn't a big problem.

You are right that it's cultural though. I doubt many people in Japan would do it, as they'd consider the shame on their family if caught. In the UK, increasingly people (of all ages; no need to single out youngsters) are so self entitled that they don't care what anyone else thinks - and will potentially get very aggressive if you dare question their actions.

Sadly, unless we can change society, the police are very much necessary. We can of course debate the punishment and attempts to rehabilitate - and that goes for more than fare evasion. It goes for anti-social behaviour in general.
On point 1, no, I did not decide I might as well do the same. I decided that having someone holding a ticket gate open for me and exposing themselves to risk of prosecution or worse if a police officer comes along (it is the US after all, and I'm not familiar with the place) was worse than me not paying for the ticket.

On point 3, no, that is patently false, and an attitude that I would also like to strongly push back against. I also come from an East Asian culture. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the average Brit is less self-centred and less willing to commit petty crime for their own (usually monetary) benefit than the average person in my place of birth. Indeed, fraud and corruption is done to a much greater extent in Japan. Westerners often seem to have this romantic conception of the "disciplined, moralistic, orderly" East Asian society, which could not be farther than the truth. "Shame to the family" is utilised mostly in situations which I would hope you agree people should not be ostracised or shamed for, such as mental health issues, LGBT identity, and line of work. Ths is very off topic, but to reiterate, extremely important to clarify.

On the last point, I agree of course that the police are necessary as both enforcement and deterrent. We shouldn't however pretend that having police enforcement makes the problem go away in any sense, or that fare evaders or petty criminals are some sort of irrecoverable "dregs of society" (to quote someone else in the thread) towards whom society's only responsibility is to tag and track. I am particularly uncomfortable, for example, with the frequency with which people have suggested mass surveillance technologies and the logging of identifying data for *every single tube traveller passing through a ticket barrier* for the enforcement of fare evasion.
 

ChrisC

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On the wider tailgating topic, I just witnessed a guy in a balaclava/ski mask, dressed all in black, casually barge through the tube barriers at my London terminal. He was in a big hurry and had the distinct air of someone who had just done something they shouldn’t have. There is no way gateline staff can realistically challenge someone like that - and frankly they’d be foolhardy to try
I was at Norwood Junction on Monday afternoon and in the space of about 2 minutes, 2 out of the 6 people that came through the barriers had paid.

Makes you feel like a mug for paying really when in the rare occasion they do get caught, unless there's Police involvement they'll likely just get abusive/give false details/pull a knife anyway.

I was on a Southeastern service once and someone nearby was being Penalty Fared. The guy didn't offer any grief and was pleasant enough with the inspector in fairness. Then once they'd moved on, began bragging to his mate and someone on the phone that he'd give fake details and got away with it again and that he'd add the notice to the collection on his wall. And this was about 5 years.

.
These are just a few recent examples from this thread where people are deliberately avoiding paying for a ticket. Many other instances referred to earlier are concerning thug like characters who understandably barrier staff, for their own safety, can’t challenge them. It’s exactly the same in shops with the current increase in shoplifting where they know shop staff can’t do anything.

It seems very unfair that due to their attitude, they can get away with it day after day, knowing that no-one will challenge them. I can’t blame rail staff for not challenging them as they do need to consider their own safety. In complete contrast, I always feel very sorry for people who have made a genuine mistake, by perhaps not having the correct ticket, and then are treated very harshly. I know there are some who look innocent but will try it on and it's difficult to tell if it’s a genuine mistake. However, for example an elderly infrequent traveller, who may have accidentally boarded the wrong train with an Advance ticket, can be treated very harshly, made to feel like a criminal and have to pay for another full priced ticket. This seems so unfair when if they were a foul mouthed violent thug they could get away without paying. You only have to read in this forum how some people have been treated very harshly with fines and court appearances for genuine mistakes when others get away with it daily.
 

rebmcr

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Fare evasion is undoubtedly a real issue. However, half of the people in this thread seem to be under the impression that they are the only honest bloke left in the world and everyone else all around, from the zoomers to the boomers to the poor and the rich and the police and the politicians and what have you, are evil, dishonest, antisocial, selfish assholes. With the utmost possible respect, that doesn't make you a lot different from the people you have just accused of being self-centred exceptionalists.

Yes, culture is a real issue. The NYC metro, for example, is quite notorious for nobody ever paying any fare (the justification I was given is that it's all rubbish anyways, so no point paying for it). When I was visiting with a couple of friends a year or so back, I insisted on buying a ticket. Everyone else, of course, jumped the gate. And while I was fumbling with coins at the ticket machine, one of them held open a ticket barrier for a full minute and kept shouting for me to come through. During this minute, no less than a hundred people of all ages, genders, appearances and races passed through the open barrier, not a single one of them paying anything. Eventually, it simply became too embarassing to keep attempting to pay for the ticket (didn't help that the machine was half broken and laggy, of course).

No, it isn't the zoomers, being influenced by TikTok/the liberals/the SJWs/the nationalists/[insert political position popular among younger people you're angry at at the moment]. Counterculture movements have been a thing since at least the 1700s, and to be honest if someone is fare evading for political reasons, they're far less likely to continue to do so later in life, whereas someone fare evading for monetary gain will continue to do so when given the opportunity until kingdom come. Ideology does not play a role here. We can have legitimate arguments about to what extent social conditions, stagflation, (lack of) enforcement, the education system, negative public image of the police, etc. have on petty crime, but it is extraordinarily unlikely that "these people have been brainwashed into thinking it's okay" is a legitimate answer. This seems to be something of a recurring problem on this forum. <rant>At risk of going off topic, I've seen in multiple other threads claims by certain forum members along the lines of "young people are selfish and don't care for the country anymore", "young people are self-centred, have no respect for others, think anti-social behaviour is okay", etc. and while I fully understand (and agree) that nobody wants to argue politics on a forum about trains, I don't think this kind of BS gets enough pushback. If you do hold this stance, perhaps it would be prudent to think about why "young people" don't get the sense of belonging and responsibility you apparently have, rather than moaning about it. Is it because they have "no stake in society"? (Those who know, know.)</rant>

No, pumping money into the police alone won't work. I would've thought we learned this lesson in the US already. There are many other places in the world, including where I come from, where there are no RPI at all on trains, no staff on the gateline, and no enforcement measure of any sort. And yet, nobody fare dodges, or even really ever contemplates breaking the smallest of rules (no eating/drinking on the metro, etc). The reason for the difference in behaviour can be multifaceted (including the aforementioned cultural issues, customer satisfaction, the cost of the public transport system itself, design of the turnstiles, social security and education, general levels of societal frustration and repression), but it is abundantly clear that having lots of cops in one place might deter people from jumping at that place at that time, but it won't fix the underlying motivations of petty crime. Enforcement is generally a highly ineffective and inefficient method to prevent criminal activity, as opposed to prevention.
I applaud all of your very well-articulated points!
 

H&I

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Fare evasion is a challenging and complex, if not impossible, problem to solve, but the design of the Cubic gates makes it easy for fare evaders to tailgate and push through and likely contributes to opportunistic fare evasion. A few metro systems are trialling new gatelines that ostensibly deter fare evasion. In particular, the Bay Area Rapid Transit is installing new floor-to-ceiling fare gates with strong mechanical locks at their stations. Installing new robust gates at every station would no doubt be costly, but installation may be targeted at stations that are fare evasion hotspots. Either way, the installation cost would have to be justified against any potential increases in income from reduced opportunistic fare evasion.
 

jon0844

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We'd almost certainly still require the gates to open if pushed hard, in case of emergency (such as a risk of someone being crushed if there was a big push to go through from behind). As such, they could go from the floor to the moon but would still be easy to push through because offenders just barge through.

I got the impression from the video above that they are looking at making them strong, and possibly NOT just open if pushed hard. If they did that, they'd stand a chance - although doubling up would still surely work as the gates couldn't close that hard on someone.

Ultimately, the only real deterrent is that when you push through, you can be detained. And that means police, not gateline staff.
 

H&I

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We'd almost certainly still require the gates to open if pushed hard, in case of emergency (such as a risk of someone being crushed if there was a big push to go through from behind). As such, they could go from the floor to the moon but would still be easy to push through because offenders just barge through.

I got the impression from the video above that they are looking at making them strong, and possibly NOT just open if pushed hard. If they did that, they'd stand a chance - although doubling up would still surely work as the gates couldn't close that hard on someone.

Ultimately, the only real deterrent is that when you push through, you can be detained. And that means police, not gateline staff.
The regular gates are very difficult to push open as anyone who has ever had clothing trapped in them can tell you, it is just the wide aisle gates with the significantly larger paddles that are easy to push through. It is more likely to be a design limitation with the servo motors rather than a requirement.

It is already a safety requirement that ticket gates have to be left open when unstaffed unless they are being constantly monitored remotely as is the case for secondary gatelines at some National Rail stations.

On point 1, no, I did not decide I might as well do the same. I decided that having someone holding a ticket gate open for me and exposing themselves to risk of prosecution or worse if a police officer comes along (it is the US after all, and I'm not familiar with the place) was worse than me not paying for the ticket.

On point 3, no, that is patently false, and an attitude that I would also like to strongly push back against. I also come from an East Asian culture. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the average Brit is less self-centred and less willing to commit petty crime for their own (usually monetary) benefit than the average person in my place of birth. Indeed, fraud and corruption is done to a much greater extent in Japan. Westerners often seem to have this romantic conception of the "disciplined, moralistic, orderly" East Asian society, which could not be farther than the truth. "Shame to the family" is utilised mostly in situations which I would hope you agree people should not be ostracised or shamed for, such as mental health issues, LGBT identity, and line of work. Ths is very off topic, but to reiterate, extremely important to clarify.

On the last point, I agree of course that the police are necessary as both enforcement and deterrent. We shouldn't however pretend that having police enforcement makes the problem go away in any sense, or that fare evaders or petty criminals are some sort of irrecoverable "dregs of society" (to quote someone else in the thread) towards whom society's only responsibility is to tag and track. I am particularly uncomfortable, for example, with the frequency with which people have suggested mass surveillance technologies and the logging of identifying data for *every single tube traveller passing through a ticket barrier* for the enforcement of fare evasion.

I know this is off topic, but do you happen to be studying at Oxford? That is a very well written and put together argument.
 

jon0844

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The wide gates are stupidly easy, but even the standard ones will give at a certain level of force (more on exit than entry I believe).

As wide gates are a necessity, and at some stations you may have multiple wide gates, I can't see a solution that doesn't involve more proactive enforcement - and time spent going after those who push through is preferable to just coming down on people with an out of date railcard who are totally compliant and less likely to be involved in other crimes.
 

SunSeeker

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In complete contrast, I always feel very sorry for people who have made a genuine mistake, by perhaps not having the correct ticket, and then are treated very harshly.
For some reason this reminded me of a day I had a few years ago.

A male asked me to open the gate for him so he could meet his girlfriend on the platform as she was coming with a pram, to help her down the stairs. I thought he could be lying but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he could have just barged through if he wanted. I opened the gate then watched him on the CCTV.. as soon as the train arrived he jumped on it, off he went, never saw him again.

A couple of hours later on the same day another male came and said can I let him through to meet his pregnant wife on the platform to help her carry a pram down the stairs. Ahh.. not falling for that one again I thought to myself. Told him no, he has to buy a platform ticket from the machines. Off course he didn't want to, and just stayed in the ticket hall. Few minutes later I get a call on the passenger help point... It's a pregnant woman having a go at me about why I won't let her husband come to help her... :lol::D
 

Fermiboson

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I know this is off topic, but do you happen to be studying at Oxford? That is a very well written and put together argument.
Thank you. I am, but in my experience, having well written and put together arguments is (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view) not an Oxford privilege nor is there even really a correlation.
 

DucksGoQuack

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I started a discussion with young lad who barges through on the regular...

He's never been fortunate to meet an inspector.
The usual excuses of it's too expensive... but "They" can find money for the staff pay rises over the strikes & trains where running about empty during COVID with no one on....

Is that a culture thing, an attitude thing or what?
Makes you worried worried about where the Country and the world is heading!
 

DavyCrocket

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I told a group to leave the other day. Claimed to have no money but had a load of milkshakes and snacks.
They left.


Someone the other day followed behind someone, told to leave and then pointed out their card wasn’t working. Then showed transaction and there was a penalty for failed revenue inspection, so they obviously avoid fares regularly.
Outside they went.

I started a discussion with young lad who barges through on the regular...

He's never been fortunate to meet an inspector.
The usual excuses of it's too expensive... but "They" can find money for the staff pay rises over the strikes & trains where running about empty during COVID with no one on....

Is that a culture thing, an attitude thing or what?
Makes you worried worried about where the Country and the world is heading!
 

island

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They're losing loads by ignoring Plumstead, Blackheath, Charlton etc
I don't think it's physically possible to install gates at Blackheath due to the station layout, it's also a listed building adding further complexity. Several of the Dartford line stations are the same.
 

Kite159

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I don't think it's physically possible to install gates at Blackheath due to the station layout, it's also a listed building adding further complexity. Several of the Dartford line stations are the same.

And having gates installed is one thing, it's having those gates staffed full time so they are effective. Although that will ignore those pay only when challenged bumpers who will simply bump the gates knowing the gateline assistant can't do anything about it (other than maybe reporting it).
 

AlterEgo

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Indeed, fraud and corruption is done to a much greater extent in Japan. Westerners often seem to have this romantic conception of the "disciplined, moralistic, orderly" East Asian society, which could not be farther than the truth.
This is off topic but I couldn't agree more. When I travelled to Japan and put out some content about it, I resisted the orientalism of stereotyping Japanese culture, but a lot of people in replies and comments couldn't help but say things like:

"ooh, aren't they all so disciplined?"
"so polite, everyone is the same"
"such a clean people, a superior culture"

which are all positive stereotypes but they are unhelpful and complicated. (They have also been used in the past to demonise Japan, too)

It's a reductive view of a foreign culture and I have seen Japan has many social ills of its own. It's a complex and fascinating place, although I recognise much of Britain in Japan.
 

LTJ87

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TfL has today announced additional measures to deal with fare evasion:


Transport for London (TfL) has today announced tough new action on fare evasion and staff abuse, making body worn video part of its essential kit and increasing the penalty fare from £80 to £100 to act as a further deterrent to fare evasion. TfL has also published new data which shows that it prosecuted 19,614 people for fare evasion in 2023, an increase of 56 per cent on 2022.

The new data on fare evasion shows that TfL investigated 421 people for habitual fare evasion during 2023 who made more than 50,000 fraudulent journeys across the London Underground network, defrauding TfL of more than £300,000 in lost fare revenue. Of these cases, 190 have been prosecuted to date and 189 were found guilty, with the remaining cases pending court action.
 

Kite159

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TfL has today announced additional measures to deal with fare evasion:

I'm sure all those serial bumpers will be worried, considering even with body worn cameras by the staff, the staff will still be powerless to stop them. The only time they might get caught is with a BTP block.
 

DucksGoQuack

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Just catching up with this thread today... At my location a fare evader forced through the wide gate, managing to break the gate mechanism free from it's motor...
Now rendering the thing useless, as the gate has closed itself down.

Ain't nothing some hazard tape can't solve until it's fixed some time tomorrow.


My gate don't jiggle jiggle... it flaps... freely.
 

Regeff

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The New York Subway has got a major problem with "jumpers" who vault over the (lowish) turnstiles there to avoid paying tbeir fare. The Subway has been experimenting with much taller gates which are harder to jump and almost instantly, fare dodgers worked out a way to make the gates open so they could just walk through.

The NY Subway works on a flat fare basis irrespective of distance travelled. Unlike London, there's no tapping out (or any another check) at journey's end - you just walk through an exit turnstile so once you are the system there's zero chance of being challenged at your destination for fare evasion.
 

jon0844

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Plenty of TikTok videos on how to open Cubic gates, and even how to get a gateline key (or a gateline pass - although presumably they can be killed quite easily).
 

Meerkat

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The New York Subway has got a major problem with "jumpers" who vault over the (lowish) turnstiles there to avoid paying tbeir fare. The Subway has been experimenting with much taller gates which are harder to jump and almost instantly, fare dodgers worked out a way to make the gates open so they could just walk through.

The NY Subway works on a flat fare basis irrespective of distance travelled. Unlike London, there's no tapping out (or any another check) at journey's end - you just walk through an exit turnstile so once you are the system there's zero chance of being challenged at your destination for fare evasion.
Does Paris still have full height turnstiles? I went through one but it shut before my large rucksack did, which was rather embarrassing!
 

Thirteen

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It's usually young scrotes and people who frankly should know better who fare dodge.

There was a Channel 5 series a few years back about the TfL revenue protection officers which might still on My5 but not 100%
 
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