'Bumping' - is it becoming a serious problem?

[Adrian1980uk]

To be fair, online crime is absolutely rife. It needs very specialist skills to deal with and it’s not something I’d expect a normal police officer to be involved in (in the same way that firearms are dealt with by specialist officers).

Online crime is in massive growth, it needs more resources to deal with and isn’t a case of officers choosing to investigate it because it’s ‘easy’ and can be done from their desks.

Accepted both points but I think it is more subtle than that, the police have a set amount of resources each year and it then gets divided up so more online is less on other crimes.
Recruitment will also push the way to make it appealing to join the police, adverts saying you walk up and down stations, streets etc isn't going to appeal. Storming up and down with firearms or racing in cars attracts potentially the wrong type of people (usually men).
Generally specialist skills get paid more so there will be a tendency to get promotion into that area.

Given that there is no political concensus to moving spending from railways, NHS, defence, a.n. other government department to police then prioritisation will always have to take place. my personal opinion is there needs to be a public discussion on police priority as currently it's decided basically by the chief constable of the force.

 

[Snow1964]

I work on a gate line at one of London's busiest stations, and we get several people breaking through the barriers every day. Sometimes we get asked what we are doing about it, and all I can say is that I make a note of it and ill out a form. None of the staff at my station are going to tackle these people for fear of our own safety. It is incredibly frustrating that we have to stand there and let them do it, but rewarding on the occasions when they set up sting operations and some of these fare dodgers get arrested.

When you hear it from the station staff, I do tend to think whole approach is wrong.

Current approach, put one member of staff on each gateline, ignore (for personal safety reasons), fare evaders.

Would it not be better to leave say 9 gatelines open and unattended and have 10 staff blitzing one, including stopping anyone trying to turn back when they see a blockade. Obviously randomly rotate the stations being blockaded, but even if stop one evader at one station in ten, rather than nil at ten stations must be better.

 

[jon0844]

When you hear it from the station staff, I do tend to think whole approach is wrong.

Current approach, put one member of staff on each gateline, ignore (for personal safety reasons), fare evaders.

Would it not be better to leave say 9 gatelines open and unattended and have 10 staff blitzing one, including stopping anyone trying to turn back when they see a blockade. Obviously randomly rotate the stations being blockaded, but even if stop one evader at one station in ten, rather than nil at ten stations must be better.

There are rumours that the DfT is going to make TOCs work harder to protect revenue in 2024, so we might see this sort of thing happening more. I've said for 10-15 years or more that hard blocks, with police, dogs, metal detectors, Home Office etc etc are very effective as criminals come to them - but it needs proper funding and the ability to deal with potentially many arrests for other, more serious, offences.

If people know there are random blocks all over, they're less likely to be so cocky as their luck is going to run out sooner rather than later.

But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Starmill]

All i was suggesting is that these criminal types would still be carrying out their criminality regardless of the state of the economy or which political party was in power.

Indeed and I'm suggesting you're fundamentally wrong.

For example relatively minor crimes like bicycle thefts or selling counterfeit goods in areas of Greater Manchester used to be a more serious problem affecting people's daily life. The chief constable ended up making those things priorities, and unsurprisingly as a result, they're now far less common, because the experienced criminals in those fields were caught and convicted. This means they aren't around to pass on their knowledge or embodlden others who are considering these offences, because they've all been given short prison sentences or are on tag. Of course, that just means there's even less resource to go around for investigating other things, one of those was shoplifting, which is now, unsurprisingly, very difficult to police.

 

[greyman42]

Indeed and I'm suggesting you're fundamentally wrong.

For example relatively minor crimes like bicycle thefts or selling counterfeit goods in areas of Greater Manchester used to be a more serious problem affecting people's daily life. The chief constable ended up making those things priorities, and unsurprisingly as a result, they're now far less common, because the experienced criminals in those fields were caught and convicted. This means they aren't around to pass on their knowledge or embodlden others who are considering these offences, because they've all been given short prison sentences or are on tag. Of course, that just means there's even less resource to go around for investigating other things, one of those was shoplifting, which is now, unsurprisingly, very difficult to police.

You make a good point but going back to #32 there was a suggestion that people bump because of austerity. I think that these people would be fare dodging regardless of austerity.

 

[takno]

You make a good point but going back to #32 there was a suggestion that people bump because of austerity. I think that these people would be fare dodging regardless of austerity.

It's not necessarily austerity in the sense that everybody doing it is a temporarily-penniless saint. Cuts to police, court and prison budgets were a part of austerity too though, and that has led to a reduced fear of consequences, as well as a general sense that the government just doesn't care so you might as well. I suspect lockdowns are also an important factor, with people generally feeling like they aren't respected or valued or treated as an important part of society.

What's extremely questionable is whether the current level of fare-dodging is somehow endemic, since it actually appears to be higher than it was when ticket checks were rare and ticket examiners worked on their own with essentially no backup at all.

 

[Starmill]

You make a good point but going back to #32 there was a suggestion that people bump because of austerity. I think that these people would be fare dodging regardless of austerity.

Sure they may not be directly related, but police resources are related to the number of crimes they can investigate and thereby pass on to the Crown to prosecute.

 

[joebassman]

It does make one cringe that all this seems to have occurred with “the party of law & order” in charge.

I get the feeling this crime spree, currently at any rate, is particularly a London problem. Though like many things what happens in London tends to permeate outwards in time.

I'm not so sure now. My local town, Ipswich, seems to have become pretty rough. An 18 year old was killed with machete in the town center in the mid afternoon recently.

I was told that someone was walking along when a man stopped them and asked what their opinion of Palastine was. The person who was asked said they do not have an opinion.

The other person then opened his coat to reveal a knife, pointed to the knife and said 'what's your opinion of Palastine now?' 2 other burly men then got out of a nearby car. The person being asked then ran off.

I've heard of someone being hit over the head with a baseball bat and someone else receiving a severe beating in the town.

 

[The Ham]

I'm not so sure now. My local town, Ipswich, seems to have become pretty rough. An 18 year old was killed with machete in the town center in the mid afternoon recently.

I was told that someone was walking along when a man stopped them and asked what their opinion of Palastine was. The person who was asked said they do not have an opinion.

The other person then opened his coat to reveal a knife, pointed to the knife and said 'what's your opinion of Palastine now?' 2 other burly men then got out of a nearby car. The person being asked then ran off.

I've heard of someone being hit over the head with a baseball bat and someone else receiving a severe beating in the town.

Now wishing to speculate, however that's often knife attacks which appear to happen in otherwise safe places.

About 15 years ago locally a kid was beaten (quite badly) by a group looking for someone, even they didn't find the person they wanted they picked in someone. Lots off locals for all worked up. Thing is, nothing similar has happened since.

An isolated case does not mean that things are going to get worse. Even two or three cases don't always mean much, other than perhaps you know about them because of better communication (including social media).

 

[joebassman]

Now wishing to speculate, however that's often knife attacks which appear to happen in otherwise safe places.

About 15 years ago locally a kid was beaten (quite badly) by a group looking for someone, even they didn't find the person they wanted they picked in someone. Lots off locals for all worked up. Thing is, nothing similar has happened since.

An isolated case does not mean that things are going to get worse. Even two or three cases don't always mean much, other than perhaps you know about them because of better communication (including social media).

You make a good point. However the town seems to have markidly gone downhill in recent years. Lots of empty shops and unemployment. County lines drugs seems to have become prevelent as well now. But these issues seem to be playing out in a lot of towns around the country at the moment.

 

[The Ham]

You make a good point. However the town seems to have markidly gone downhill in recent years. Lots of empty shops and unemployment. County lines drugs seems to have become prevelent as well now. But these issues seem to be playing out in a lot of towns around the country at the moment.

Indeed they are, and are probably symptoms (like an increase in bumping) of an issue with the way the country is heading, which (at least to me) makes me wonder if the political choices being made are the best.

In that if you worry about those at the top (for example considering changes to inheritance taxes) but not those at the bottom, then people are more likely to look to undertake antisocial activities.

I wonder if those who push trickle down economics are looking at the map upsidedown, in that those at the top are actually the poor and if you give them money then it'll end up in the pockets of the rich by the poor buying goods and services.

However, before we go too far off thread, a railway where 20% of those using it are doing so for free because they can't afford to (or at least feel poor enough to feel that it's worth the risk) it's going to struggle to pay it's way compared to a railway where that's 0.2%.

It almost wouldn't matter how many millionaires you had, as they just wouldn't use the railway enough to cover those extra costs (unless you tax them, but that's not where we are politically).

 

[bramling]

Indeed they are, and are probably symptoms (like an increase in bumping) of an issue with the way the country is heading, which (at least to me) makes me wonder if the political choices being made are the best.

In that if you worry about those at the top (for example considering changes to inheritance taxes) but not those at the bottom, then people are more likely to look to undertake antisocial activities.

I wonder if those who push trickle down economics are looking at the map upsidedown, in that those at the top are actually the poor and if you give them money then it'll end up in the pockets of the rich by the poor buying goods and services.

However, before we go too far off thread, a railway where 20% of those using it are doing so for free because they can't afford to (or at least feel poor enough to feel that it's worth the risk) it's going to struggle to pay it's way compared to a railway where that's 0.2%.

It almost wouldn't matter how many millionaires you had, as they just wouldn't use the railway enough to cover those extra costs (unless you tax them, but that's not where we are politically).

That argument might hold water if it were a case of people not being able to afford goods or services. I’m not convinced that’s the case across the board, there’s a lot of people who simply don’t *want* to afford such things. That’s a different matter entirely.

 

[Falcon1200]

The most recent time I saw bumping was at Birmingham New Street where a man pushed through the gate behind another person and strolled nonchalantly away as if nothing had happened! The staff member there was busy with another passenger and I don't think even noticed. The 'bumper' was however wearing the clearly-branded uniform of one of the major supermarket chains, perhaps he is as unconcerned about shoplifters stealing from his business as he is about stealing from the railway.

 

[DDB]

This is all about police priority, the pressure on the police is to go after online crime, racial crime, sex offences and traffic offences (for some reason). Online crime particularly is probably favoured by officers as can be done from the comfort of their desk, who can blame them.
Burglary and non payment of fares is the lowest priority.

The police have had their numbers reduced by the current government and so can do less. With the reductions to other public bodies more things end up on the police. To cover this up the government likes to claim they are prioritising the wrong things so that that the government doesn't get the blame.

I'm not so sure now. My local town, Ipswich, seems to have become pretty rough. An 18 year old was killed with machete in the town center in the mid afternoon recently.

I was told that someone was walking along when a man stopped them and asked what their opinion of Palastine was. The person who was asked said they do not have an opinion.

The other person then opened his coat to reveal a knife, pointed to the knife and said 'what's your opinion of Palastine now?' 2 other burly men then got out of a nearby car. The person being asked then ran off.

I've heard of someone being hit over the head with a baseball bat and someone else receiving a severe beating in the town.

How first hand is this report? It comes across as "a bloke in a pub told me" or its online equivalent.

 

[jon0844]

The Government has said the police must turn up to burglary victims within an hour. No idea if that is feasible, or whether sending a PCSO would be sufficient, and there are some suggestions of taking shoplifting a bit more seriously.

Frankly, they need to treat all 'small' crimes seriously as they're usually anything but. Most shoplifting now is heavily organised, with gangs involved to collect the stolen goods quickly and send thieves on to the next store(s) - often driving them, although some will likely use the rail network and may well be those pushing through.

Westminster clamped down on the dodgy candy stores in London, but what are they doing about the organised crime involved with many barber shops? Are we to believe they're cutting a gazillion haircuts a day (actually, they are usually very busy but they claim even more in order to launder money). Everyone knows what's going on, and certainly the police, but what's done?

Same for tissue beggars and the like.

We need more police. They need more resources. We need a legal system that can punish people. This Government has no interest but will willingly blame all crime on illegal immigrants or similar, so we target our hate towards them instead of the powers that be doing next to nothing and being anything other than a party of law and order.

(And, yes, their treatment of people over the years has forced many to levels of poverty that no doubt means some are turning to crime to get by, but I don't think this is the majority... hence people in uniforms and easily identifiable doing what they like too).

 

[Busaholic]

I highly doubt its the White van men the ones pushing through tube barriers
They are probably just driving round Bromley in their old van grumbling while paying the fee, I doubt they have even taken the tube much. Not everything has to be about your pet culture war issue.

They'd have to travel a fair way from Bromley borough to reach a tube barrier!

 

[endicomark69@g]

They'd have to travel a fair way from Bromley borough to reach a tube barrier!

While personally I could say it was sadly nowhere near far enough, it wouldn't be nearly as far for the Non-White Vanners of the Principality of Bromley if we had a Government that was prepared to fund the Bakerloo Line extension fully, and get on with something that's been badly needed since 1972.......

 

[AndrewP]

The only time I have experienced this was a few years ago at Leeds station and I was shoved through the barriers by a member of Northern staff!

As for London, public transport feels as safe as it did when I lived there in the early 2000s if not safer and less threatening than any other major world city I have been to recently. I don't rate the current mayor but London's transport is really better than it's peers. Also any big city will have good and bad areas (and people)

 

[sleepinghobby]

The most recent time I saw bumping was at Birmingham New Street where a man pushed through the gate behind another person and strolled nonchalantly away as if nothing had happened! The staff member there was busy with another passenger and I don't think even noticed. The 'bumper' was however wearing the clearly-branded uniform of one of the major supermarket chains, perhaps he is as unconcerned about shoplifters stealing from his business as he is about stealing from the railway.

The very last day I worked a public facing role, I had 2 push throughs. The rude, threatening one wore a Tesco uniform fleece. After my shift I intended to visit Tesco and collect more information to pass on to BTP and the Revenue enforcement team. Both came back maybe an hour later. The rude one had discarded the fleece and was even more unhinged. He brandished a bike tool he stole from Halfords though at the time I thought it was a screw driver. BTP never showed up and he went onto cause issues at a larger station where walkways were rammed due to disruption.

Whilst people will fearlessly push through with their distinguishing work attire, I think they are somewhat safe from the fact the authorities won't pursue these leads as now criminals have discovered they can hide in plain sight wearing easily obtainable work uniforms. The criminal class go to even greater lengths to steal rather than earn legitimate income. Shouldn't come as a surprise as ex-railway employees also try to swindle the network with uniforms they still have.

 

[Busaholic]

While personally I could say it was sadly nowhere near far enough, it wouldn't be nearly as far for the Non-White Vanners of the Principality of Bromley if we had a Government that was prepared to fund the Bakerloo Line extension fully, and get on with something that's been badly needed since 1972.......

Oh. indeed. In 1972 I was working for London Transport at HQ, lived close to Beckenham Junction and my family home was a stone's throw from Bromley South. The Bakerloo extension was very much being planned for after the Fleet (later Jubilee) got built, then later in the decade Bromley Council decided to take on L.T. in the courts over the Fares Fair policy introduced at the behest of the GLC. You won't find this in an official version of history, but imo 'folk memory' at least will cast a long shadow over any proposal to get the Bakerloo beyond Lewisham. I don't believe it will ever happen.

 

[ScotGG]

This is all about police priority, the pressure on the police is to go after online crime, racial crime, sex offences and traffic offences (for some reason). Online crime particularly is probably favoured by officers as can be done from the comfort of their desk, who can blame them.
Burglary and non payment of fares is the lowest priority.

Not true. Traffic police have been decimated. Many places are a free for all on the roads too.

Does seem odd for those of us that use Southeastern Metro or routes such as silverlink in years past that it's now seen as a post covid issue. Those networks have seen this all for many years. Maybe if it was nipped in the bud on those it would wouldnt have spread more widely.

 

[Chriso]

I just don’t understand the lack of action from anyone. The staff don’t care , the police don’t care and the GOV are just useless.

It’s a disgrace to the law abiders who are facing a Massine increase in fares to pay 4 this **** service (strikes) and unsafe services

I know someone doughnutting on the Brighton main line who just buys an online ticket when he sees an rpi once every three months . He earns great money but sees the railway as such an easy touch to save money

I just don’t understand the lack of action from anyone. The staff don’t care , the police don’t care and the GOV are just useless.

It’s a disgrace to the law abiders who are facing a Massine increase in fares to pay 4 this **** service (strikes) and unsafe services

I know someone doughnutting on the Brighton main line who just buys an online ticket when he sees an rpi once every three months . He earns great money but sees the railway as such an easy touch to save money

On top of this the videos of hobos shoplifting booze in Tesco is horrendous . A total failure of government

We’re in a cost of living crisis with no police and people wonder why the country is a dump

Another great Tory success

London is a becoming an unliveable cesspit

The criminals do what they want while the Police allow it and even rail staff. Look 9 times out of 10 at London Bridge where a staff member has left a gate line open while standing next to it on his phone without a care in the world who goes through

If I’m travelling through London Bridge to an ungated station I always look and 9 times out of 10 it’s a free ride for me

I mean how **** are the management at London Bridge . Do they not actually know what the staff anre doing. Don’t bother me it’s a free ride but so easily fixable with management who don’t give a s**t

The railway and GOV if in charge need to grow some balls otherwise this crap will continue

 

[KingKiev123]

I just don’t understand the lack of action from anyone. The staff don’t care , the police don’t care and the GOV are just useless.

It’s a disgrace to the law abiders who are facing a Massine increase in fares to pay 4 this **** service (strikes) and unsafe services

I know someone doughnutting on the Brighton main line who just buys an online ticket when he sees an rpi once every three months . He earns great money but sees the railway as such an easy touch to save money



On top of this the videos of hobos shoplifting booze in Tesco is horrendous . A total failure of government

We’re in a cost of living crisis with no police and people wonder why the country is a dump

Another great Tory success

London is a becoming an unliveable cesspit

The criminals do what they want while the Police allow it and even rail staff. Look 9 times out of 10 at London Bridge where a staff member has left a gate line open while standing next to it on his phone without a care in the world who goes through

If I’m travelling through London Bridge to an ungated station I always look and 9 times out of 10 it’s a free ride for me

I mean how **** are the management at London Bridge . Do they not actually know what the staff anre doing. Don’t bother me it’s a free ride but so easily fixable with management who don’t give a s**t

The railway and GOV if in charge need to grow some balls otherwise this crap will continue

You do know that it is not gateline staff's responsibility to engage with fare evaders ? In fact if we were to react and things were to get physical we would be at risk of losing our jobs.

 

[contrex]

Back in the 1960s I was a civil servant. In one year alone four young female colleagues were penalised by London Transport for fare evasion, something which I was surprised to find they did not regard as criminal. These "low lifes" included a colonel's daughter, a doctor's daughter and a woman from a very religious Christian family. So, perhaps, there is less new under the sun than we think.

Less new indeed. In the 1960s as a student I crossed London from Harrow to Herne Hill when I had hardly any money by 1. Buying a single to Kenton 2. Staying on to Queen's Park and changing to the Bakerloo 3. Changing to the Northern at Elephant and Castle 4. Getting off at Stockwell and saying 'Oval, mate', to the sole ticket collector and handing over some coppers, exhausting my money. This last was crucial to the operation. Both on LT and BR, it was quite normal at quiet stations to say you had come from the last station and offer some coins to person at the gate (if there was one). No receipt of course! Best perhaps to do this when there was no-one else about... sometimes if there wasn't anyone collecting tickets, you would see little piles of pennies, threepenny bits, etc, left on a ledge or the sill of a booth, as well as used tickets. This surprised me, but perhaps some people thought that at least they had cleared their yard-arm in some fashion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do know that it is not gateline staff's responsibility to engage with fare evaders ? In fact if we were to react and things were to get physical we would be at risk of losing our jobs.

Odd. At most TOCs the purpose of gateline staff (who are typically RPIs) is precisely that - to stop fare evaders and issue a Penalty Fare or complete an MG11.

They aren't supposed to leave the station to chase them, though.

 

[Kenny G]

Yes, every time I go into my local Sainsbury's, I notice there's a dodgy bloke hanging around. Give him a wide berth and he's immediately piling drinks bottles into his bag

Must be a nightmare seeing Boris Johnson on a daily basis.

 

[Turtle]

Less new indeed. In the 1960s as a student I crossed London from Harrow to Herne Hill when I had hardly any money by 1. Buying a single to Kenton 2. Staying on to Queen's Park and changing to the Bakerloo 3. Changing to the Northern at Elephant and Castle 4. Getting off at Stockwell and saying 'Oval, mate', to the sole ticket collector and handing over some coppers, exhausting my money. This last was crucial to the operation. Both on LT and BR, it was quite normal at quiet stations to say you had come from the last station and offer some coins to person at the gate (if there was one). No receipt of course! Best perhaps to do this when there was no-one else about... sometimes if there wasn't anyone collecting tickets, you would see little piles of pennies, threepenny bits, etc, left on a ledge or the sill of a booth, as well as used tickets. This surprised me, but perhaps some people thought that at least they had cleared their yard-arm in some fashion.

Yes. I recollect that form of criminality was quite widespread and knew at least one person who regularly indulged in it.

 

[43066]

The criminals do what they want while the Police allow it and even rail staff.

If I’m travelling through London Bridge to an ungated station I always look and 9 times out of 10 it’s a free ride for me

It seems a little odd to complain about criminality, yet also admit that you indulge in that same criminality yourself when it suits!

At most TOCs the purpose of gateline staff (who are typically RPIs)

Most gateline staff are *not* RPIs. The only time you’ll see RPIs at a gateline is during a revenue blockade, typically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most gateline staff are *not* RPIs. The only time you’ll see RPIs at a gateline is during a revenue blockade, typically.

Does that vary by TOC? I know LNR briefly manned some gatelines out of hours using security staff who couldn't do anything if you hadn't paid, but the ones based at MKC definitely issue Penalty Fares, they don't avoid engagement.

 

[43066]

Does that vary by TOC? I know LNR briefly manned some gatelines out of hours using security staff who couldn't do anything if you hadn't paid, but the ones based at MKC definitely issue Penalty Fares, they don't avoid engagement.

It may do (and by location of course), however I’ve never known RPIs to be a regular fixture on gatelines at all. They’re typically more expensive than gateline staff, so used sparingly for that reason, and typically deployed on train to catch people out where they can’t easily run away, or during aforementioned blocks (usually backed up by enforcement officers or BTP).

@RPI may be able to shed more light!