The Planner
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No as turnarounds in the base timetable have mandated turnaround times. They would have to be agreed to be reduced.
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Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston
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It can't reduce the planned turnrounds because as you say, these are agreed standard values (albeit designed more to allow for inbound delays to be recovered from - hence their variability depending on the train's origin).
But in practice it can certainly help to reduce turnrounds on the day, as it can reduce the amount of cleaning necessary.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's already done, or at least has been in the past. Does mean internal cleanliness standards are quite high.
Depends if it is has been manually delayed or not.
Otherwise the system (Darwin) has a fixed turnaround time and just adds minutes on until eventually it tips over to "Delayed".*
* That is a very basic explanation before anyone starts chiming in.
Sweetjesus
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I was at Euston on 15th December and my experience on that day as a Deaf person was downright horrible.
I arrived at Euston approximately 8:30pm and stayed there all the way up to 10:15pm or so when i left for Birmingham.
My experience included:
1. The main displays showing no trains. When I arrived, they showed all trains (most if not all are delayed) on the displays and then it went down to 2 or so trains on the displays and then no trains on displays. They didn't bother to put something on there saying "speak to staff" or whatever. I was under the assumption that there'll be still trains coming just that they might appear on the display later when the disruption is resolved.
2. Hearing the voiced announcements (I wear hearing aids but voiced speech is not intelligible to me) and thinking it'd be repeating the message saying there's disruption and please wait for train info to come on the displays.
3. Only after a while did I realise these announcements were actually for train departures that aren't on the display. I saw crowds moving to go to their platform but nothing on the display.
4. Passenger assistance was, to put it kindly, untrained. It was clear they're not used to dealing with Deaf passengers (to be fair, us Deaf people rarely need passenger assistance) but it's clear they still need be trained as a few staff kept using their voice to speak to me despite showing a text on my phone to them saying I'm Deaf.
5. Passenger assistance said they'd keep us (I wasn't only Deaf passenger on that day) updated and failed to do so. There was one Deaf passenger who waited from the morning for their train to up north. That passenger told me that they were clueless as to what they should do next and that was approx. 9pm!
6. Passenger assistance not passing on complete information. When I came to the desk and explained my situation, their response in writing (after speaking to me vocally), was "wait here and i will take to you to the train". Nothing about the disruption, or any questions about my travel plans. I had an open ticket and I wanted to get any train service that went past the blockade (e.g. to Rugby/Nuneaton) and get my friend to pick me up from there or take a second train service.
7. When the passenger assistance took us to the platform with LNWR train sitting in it, there was a massive crowd in front of us. I decided not to take that one as I do not want to be left standing all the way to Birmingham, my legs are already sore as it is.
8. The next train service was an Avanti and I was at the gateline, the staff did not let us through the gateline until an hour later. I think there was announcement as the hearing passengers seemed to be relaxed and not bothering the gateline staff asking for an update, I was confused and I wasn't able to get through to the gateline to ask the staff there as it was so crowded.
I've taken a few pictures and while I haven't made a formal complaint to Avanti/NR yet as I haven't really figured out what would be my next move.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Yes , I find this often while waiting.
londonmidland
Established Member
The worst thing is that the Crewe services are often ready to board a long time before it’s actually advertised. I often see the train sitting empty in the platform, with the guard either in their cab with the door open or waiting on the platform. The cleaners have also long gone.
There’s no reason for Network Rail to advertise these services so late.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And contrary to that they're often called when the unit is still locked. It's totally inconsistent, and there's really no benefit in suppressing them at all because the units aren't serviced at Euston and there's no longer any splitting and joining there either, with almost everything just being a fixed formation 8.350 or 6.730.
350s should only be locked if they are due to split/attach or have a driver check in the diagram, otherwise they are to remain open.
Personally I do prefer to have time for passengers to fully disembark prior to platform being called as there's nothing worse than having a full platform and hundreds of passengers having to fight their way off the train and up the ramps. But I think 5 mins after arrival should suffice, giving at least 10-15 mins for boarding would be good.
I'm sorry you had to experience that. Please please please raise it formally with Avanti. I'd go direct to the CEO rather than the normal complaints route (it'd go there anyway, but someone in the CEOs office might actually identify this as a real issue than it getting lost in the mass of normal complaints) https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-9748
I'd also write to your MP to complain about the broader issues these policies are causing, as they can be pretty useful when it comes to sticky issues like this where Avanti and NR are clearly not really bothered about something that will likely injure someone sooner rather than later.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Several people just got left behind at Euston from the 12.46 Crewe because it was only announced 4 minutes before departure.
Two of those were actually on the platform and delayed departure briefly because they were refusing to step back from the train - one of them at least was keeping his hand in contact...
Two of those were actually on the platform and delayed departure briefly because they were refusing to step back from the train - one of them at least was keeping his hand in contact...
If Network Rail senior management can't be trusted to use good judgment and ensure they have enough control staff, and that they can liase with the TOC and Network Rail staff on the ground, then a mandatory minimum should be set. Say a fixed 9 minutes minimum with no trains permitted to depart until their platform has been advertised for this long. 9 minutes would leave even the slowest person on their feet or with a mobility aid time to get from the concourse to an appropriate door.
If the 9 minutes can't be met the TOC can choose to cancel the service with it departing ECS, or a delayed departure. Network Rail would of course foot the bill either way through the usual mechanism.
If the 9 minutes can't be met the TOC can choose to cancel the service with it departing ECS, or a delayed departure. Network Rail would of course foot the bill either way through the usual mechanism.
It's a shame the conductor or driver didn't choose to abort the process as a result of that.
Speaking for myself, a folding bicycle will not fit in an overhead rack and so I try to find space in the vertical luggage racks. Several times these have been full with suitcases and I have struggled to find a suitable place to put the bike (but thankfully have so far always managed it).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To be fair I wasn't talking about stuff that doesn't fit in the overheads, for which the stacks are intended, I'm talking about stuff (IATA size and smaller trolley cases) that definitely does and people are just too bone idle to put it up.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
I'm on the train.
As soon as it was announced we seeheaded down from the top of the ramp and the screens at the platform were already showing "platform closing in 2 minutes 54 seconds"
To be clear, the train was not moved until a member of platform staff had got the two clear.
He had to ask them several times, though. I suspect he had to give warning of calling the police before they actually moved.
We're probably uncomfortably close to the point where people will deliberately delay a departure like this for a late call?
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A quick glance at RTT shows the inbound train arriving at 12:33 (albeit arriving about 9L as it was meant to be 12:24)
13 minute turnaround yet it was announced at I assume 12:41 or 12:42 (4 mins before dep as stated above) as it left pretty much on time.
13 minute turnaround yet it was announced at I assume 12:41 or 12:42 (4 mins before dep as stated above) as it left pretty much on time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Another option in this case is to forego cleaning. Avanti are quite good at keeping things spick and span, but they do have travelling cleaners who could pick up rubbish after departure. You would want to load the buffet stock, but doing so doesn't require the absence of passengers. So in this case shove the platform up, don't bother with boarding checks and just have it interchange passengers as a commuter service would.
I'm pretty sure that the 1246 service to Crewe in question is a LNWR service.
All Line Rover
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If a clear 10 minutes cannot be provided to allow passengers to board a train in a safe and comfortable manner, the departure time of the train must be delayed. Simple as.
It is not passengers' responsibility to compensate for the rail industry's failings.
It is not passengers' responsibility to compensate for the rail industry's failings.
But that would then have a snowball effect as inbound services wouldn't be able to access platforms occupied by late outbound services, thereby causing further quick turnarounds , late boarding & more departure delays.
The layout of Euston station & it's platforms has for many years caused problems with the last minute scramble for trains. The high intensity of services arriving & departing with quick turnarounds has & sadly will continue to cause issues for years to come
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If one train is going to cause that sort of backlog, cancelling it and sending it back as ECS as soon as it's tipped out may well be the best plan, particularly if it's a Manchester. But I think the problem could be avoided by not cleaning it - annoying, but better than the rush.
In that case there's no excuse for suppressing the platform at all - shove it up well in advance and people can wait on the platform. Now they've stopped the splitting and joining there is really no case at all for suppressing LNR platforms, it wasn't done in Silverlink days, they were even on a paper poster down in the Tube station so you'd know whether to turn left or go straight on!
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Tough. As above, the railway's failing shouldn't be the passengers' problem to solve. Start causing delays to snowball and suddenly you'll find departures announced in good time instead of four minutes before.
Not sure why the layout is relevant, if there is a lack of space and too many passengers, then displaying the platform number early would be of benefit to everyone as the passengers waiting on the concourse would all be sat on their train, out of the way.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The layout issue is the small "tunnel" area to the platforms - it would be a lot less of an issue were that much wider, e.g. at New St it is probably twice the width.
However as you say simply not suppressing platforms would allow this to be mitigated.
Given people do that occasionally when they are themselves late for the train because they weren't at the station in time, I would be surprised if someone who was there in time didn't try to interfere with the train in a way which meant it wasn't able to depart without them.
If they can't manage it safely, and reports imply that improvement is yet to be seen, then they should be forced to accept a blanket rule, and the resultant commercial losses.
But it has been established turnaround times are generally adequate. Apart from London Overground they're not short.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Has the reason why trains are so late being boarded at Euston ever been established? Presumably in the case of long distance, ie Avanti services, their staff would have to advise Network Rail when the train was ready, but this would surely not apply to LNWR and Overground trains, where 'by exception' boarding would apply; Unless advised otherwise arriving trains would form their diagrammed return working. There cannot be a deliberate policy to advertise trains as late as they are, can there!
Yes this is what I meant but also let's not forget the loss of Platforms 17 & 18 to HS2, which in times of disruption does cause platform issues especially as many LNWR services seem to use the 'Main' platforms now rather than just 8-11 thus restricting platforms available to Avanti services.
In normal working all should work well, sadly I don't think a normal working exists anymore on the West Coast
bramling
Veteran Member
I get the feeling Euston is one of those places, like Blackpool North, where the station is something of a dump to work at, so staff have essentially imposed their own way of working, and management don’t want to rock the boat.
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