• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Preferential treatment for rail staff

C

CapabilityB

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2022
Messages
30
Location
York
In my opinion it's this sort of behaviour which paints the industry in a bad light and perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving.

I'm hoping this is just an out of touch individual, though would be interested to understand how widespread this behaviour is.

Text from twitter extract:

Trains are up the spout, there's an ECS LNRailway service Tring to Euston, won't let a fellow driver on.

Thought railway staff were meant to work together??

Turds.
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20240208-225814.png
    Screenshot_20240208-225814.png
    286.5 KB · Views: 1,358
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

E

Exscrew

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2021
Messages
106
Location
Hereford
Honestly, must industry is the same. I'm sure In tesco the off duty worker gets preferential treatment. It's human nature.
 
T

thelongestroad

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
508
Location
God Knows
Shouldn't be putting colleagues in an awkward position asking to go on ECS without the permission of relevant control. And at that point it's not really ECS if it has a passenger.

P.S not sure how this makes staff more important than pax.
 
bramling

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
CapabilityB said:
In my opinion it's this sort of behaviour which paints the industry in a bad light and perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving.

I'm hoping this is just an out of touch individual, though would be interested to understand how widespread this behaviour is.

Text from twitter extract:

"Trains are up the spout, there's an ECS LNRailway service Tring to Euston, won't let a fellow driver on.

Thought railway staff were meant to work together??

Turds."
Click to expand...

So what has actually happened here? Is this a member of LNwR staff who hasn’t been let on, or someone else (LU judging by the handle?).

Whilst I’m sure this sort of thing used to happen many years ago, there’s a number of reasons why it’s nowadays a no-no. What might have been better, assuming this was during disruption, is if they could have got control to make the service into a passenger working, however this in itself would require a few obstacles to be overcome not least availability of a guard.

Whilst carrying staff where possible is a good thing if it means a subsequent delay or cancellation is avoided, even if on another operator, there are times when it’s not possible. Especially if the reason the train is empty is because there is a defect of some kind, the presence of additional staff can be quite a distraction. The last thing one wants, for example, is a train where isolations have been made to safety equipment and there’s an off-duty member of staff there making a fuss that they need to pick their kids up from school or whatever - and believe me this scenario happens!

One way or other, not sure what the value was in sounding off on social media.
 
Last edited:
G

GordonT

Member
Joined
26 May 2018
Messages
493
The tone of the X/twitter extract and the fact that it was placed on social media in the first place is suggestive of an individual who may not have presented as being an ideal companion for the journey. Also the driver of the empties would be right to protect himself/herself from possible repercussions from their management for permitting an unauthorised person to travel especially if something untoward was to occur or they were challenged/reported by a more senior colleague.
 
TT-ONR-NRN

TT-ONR-NRN

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
10,480
Location
Farnham
CapabilityB said:
In my opinion it's this sort of behaviour which paints the industry in a bad light and perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving.

I'm hoping this is just an out of touch individual, though would be interested to understand how widespread this behaviour is.

Text from twitter extract:

"Trains are up the spout, there's an ECS LNRailway service Tring to Euston, won't let a fellow driver on.

Thought railway staff were meant to work together??

Turds."
Click to expand...
Agreed, this is such entitlement and self-importance.
 
185

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,000
ECS is as it says - any non traincrew using that ECS would require it to carry a different headcode. The olden days are long gone - with a childish blame culture in railway management, no-one should put staff in that position.

Believe the complainant doesn't even work for LNR let alone any other RDG TOC.

Staff have a responsibility to get themselves from home to & from work when the railway is not running. If that includes occasionally opening a phone and clicking on Uber - the good salary should adequately cover the occasional taxi ride to work when necessary.

Reminds me of the Driver Manager (? im told) thrown off Transport for Wales at Stockport last year... look down his nose at the guard, cost him £4.40 and a PG Tips & custard cream interview in the naughty room when he got back.
 
Last edited:
N

noddingdonkey

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2012
Messages
774
I'm guessing that this was before the driver booked on, if he was booked PASS to pick up his next service and the train was cancelled Control would have made alternative arrangements such as carriage on the ECS?
 
T

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,840
My thought process was as follows:

- ECS trains (DOO-NP) routinely convey traincrew travelling 'pass', in my part of the world at least. I've certainly conveyed traincrew on their way to and from work. I'm not aware of any rules that particularly govern this, nor limit it to traincrew of the same TOC. Control don't routinely track who is travelling 'pass' on a given service.

- This naturally gives them a preferential position over members of the public, who cannot be conveyed on ECS trains.

- If the same freight (if I'm not mistaken) driver had legitimately presented himself as a road learner, then that'd be absolutely fine (I'm not suggesting for one moment that the freight driver should have lied about this).

- Freight drivers nowadays tend to have much more blurred lines between when they're travelling to work and when they're actually at work, with remote booking on etc..

- Technicalities aside, if a freight driver is unable to get to work, or to their train if they're already considered to be at work, then that can quickly have wider implications, especially if they're booked to relieve en-route.

Personally, for all those reasons, I'd have had them on with barely a second thought.
 
Z

Zontar

Member
Joined
17 May 2021
Messages
396
Location
Birmingham
The staff member wasn't on a jolly.
More than reasonable thoughts imo.
Just don't say them out loud or put them on social media.
 
The exile

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,724
Location
Somerset
Returning to the original question - think it’s perfectly legitimate for “staff” to receive preferential treatment provided that a) it doesn’t compromise safety etc and b) providing that treatment doesn’t leave the general public in a worse position than they would otherwise have been.
Ie letting a member of staff travel on ecs ok (though I accept all the arguments above why it might be a no no for other reasons) - but letting on off-duty member of staff “jump the queue” when there’s controlled access to trains after an event - no.
 
RJ

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,410
Location
Back office
I read the tweet before it was deleted, it came across as undue entitlement. Certain ECS workings carry a bunch of staff like the 165 that gets into Paddington at around 0530. By the looks of things this individual doesn’t work for WMT and wasn’t booked to travel pass on that train so what is the bellyaching about?

If you’re not entitled to something then kicking off in public when you don’t get it shows poor judgement. If the driver said no then let it go and find some other way of travelling.

That aside, I do believe in helping other staff where possible. If a working isn’t for the public then it’s neither here nor there whether or not it carries staff.
 
357

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,371
Driver has no right to expect to be let on.

If he had phoned his/their control then in my experience it is likely they would have said yes.

The way some TOC driver managers are nowadays I don't blame the driver for saying no.
 
43066

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,426
Location
London
CapabilityB said:
In my opinion it's this sort of behaviour which paints the industry in a bad light and perpetuates an attitude amongst staff that they are more important than the customers they are serving.

I'm hoping this is just an out of touch individual, though would be interested to understand how widespread this behaviour is.

Text from twitter extract:

"Trains are up the spout, there's an ECS LNRailway service Tring to Euston, won't let a fellow driver on.

Thought railway staff were meant to work together??

Turds."
Click to expand...

Ridiculous. Staff working for a different company are going to be regarded as regular passengers, and it wouldn’t be in order to have them passing on ECS stock.

He could have ridden upfront with the driver, but maybe the driver didn’t like the look of him. I’ve said “no” for that reason before! Entirely down to the driver’s discretion (and they may be on a plan, newly qualified etc.). We all know the score, and it’s a very odd thing to complain about online.

As a more general point, of course staff will generally help each other out, eg I’ve often been let onto trains for free/allowed to sit in first by guards on other TOCs. It’s the same in any other industry and not something anyone should have an issue with.
 
Last edited:
357

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,371
43066 said:
It’s the same in any other industry
Click to expand...
I'll wait for someone to compare this to supermarkets. It is the only other industry that some posters on here seem to be aware of.
 
T

Twotwo

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
599
I've let a passenger on my ecs train as he fell asleep and there was no more trains going up road. I dropped him at his station with the permission of my control. They basically said its up to me!
 
H

HullRailMan

Member
Joined
8 Oct 2018
Messages
328
357 said:
I'll wait for someone to compare this to supermarkets. It is the only other industry that some posters on here seem to be aware of.
Click to expand...
I can confidently say that I never got anything for free in my time working in food retail, and certainly never got a benefit from a company in the same industry that I didn’t work for. Expecting a free ride from another company just because you work on trains is no different to helping yourself to free food just because you work in a shop.
 
G

Gemz91

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2013
Messages
678
Location
Garden Shed
Driver said no, there’s no need to moan about it on social media. Personally I don’t think he should be putting another driver in the position by asking in the first place. But each to there own.

Comes across as slightly self entitled to go posting things on social media though.
 
8

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
3,577
noddingdonkey said:
I'm guessing that this was before the driver booked on, if he was booked PASS to pick up his next service and the train was cancelled Control would have made alternative arrangements such as carriage on the ECS?
Click to expand...
It was a London Underground driver trying his luck.
 
43066

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,426
Location
London
357 said:
I'll wait for someone to compare this to supermarkets. It is the only other industry that some posters on here seem to be aware of.
Click to expand...

And right on cue…

HullRailMan said:
I can confidently say that I never got anything for free in my time working in food retail, and certainly never got a benefit from a company in the same industry that I didn’t work for. Expecting a free ride from another company just because you work on trains is no different to helping yourself to free food just because you work in a shop.
Click to expand...

This boils down to “I didn’t get something so nobody else should”.

And no, being offered a lift on a train isn’t the same as shoplifting from a supermarket. Good grief.

Nobody mentioned expecting anything (it’s absolutely a privilege not a right, as the complainer in the OP discovered), but staff do help each other out. It goes both ways, a few weeks ago my colleague went and sat with a traumatised Thameslink driver who’d just had someone go under the wheels of his train…

There’s a rather unpleasant sentiment to this thread which appears just to be attacking railway staff, once again.
 
R

rg177

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
3,724
Location
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Having been on gatelines, I've experienced both sides - a TPE guard once caught my company lanyard sat on the table with some papers I was reading and insisted I go and put myself in First Class.

Equally, I had a member of staff who's free travel pass had just expired (we had an agreement with a few TOCs) who politely asked if I could let him through as a one-off. I agreed.

Contrarily, a member of staff (in uniform!) working for the same TOC presented himself without a ticket after making a journey to a different colleague after this free travel agreement was withdrawn. He was extremely abusive and proceeded to kick a gate open and do a runner. This obviously made its way back to the operator in question.

Even in my short stint working on the railway itself - I can say that people do look out for each other and will do each other favours. Just don't kick off and behave like you're entitled to it!
 
M

MP393

Member
Joined
28 Jun 2021
Messages
335
Location
North West
800001 said:
It was a London Underground driver trying his luck.
Click to expand...

Looking at his other posts and replies on here, they’re a GBRf driver.

Certainly don’t agree with posting it on social media either and it seems he’s deleted it now so either prompted to by others or saw sense!

For all we know, the LNR driver may well be post qualified, which would restrict him allowing route learners in with him anyway if they chose to go down that route to get on. There are many factors in the situation, he shouldn’t have expected a “lift” and certainly shouldn’t post a moan about it when refused
 
357

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,371
HullRailMan said:
I can confidently say that I never got anything for free in my time working in food retail, and certainly never got a benefit from a company in the same industry that I didn’t work for. Expecting a free ride from another company just because you work on trains is no different to helping yourself to free food just because you work in a shop.
Click to expand...
The driver concerned would have free travel anyway, likely a Freight Duty Pass or other agreement.

The issue here was not about getting a free ride but being let on an empty train.

As is often quoted by TfL when the Tories go after the nominee passes, there is no cost associated with it as they don't need to put on any extra services to cope with the demand of staff pass users. (Please don't start calculating minute percentages of diesel or electricity).

Now in this case, if the guy seemed alright, I'd have cleared it with control and let him on, but politely asked him to sit in the passenger area and not in the cab. Letting control know also means that if the worst happens they can let the emergency services know there is an extra person to look for.

An additional risk of being on an empty train is that it can be diverted and held in all sorts of places. The reason I'd consider staff and not passengers as in the worst case the driver in question will have PTS and can get off the train where passengers or staff without PTS would be stuck.

I'll be the first to admit that I get really irritated after the end of a long day when there is service disruption that delays me getting home. I won't take to social media about it though, now that I live 10 minutes from my crew depot I just jump in an Uber and open a beer when I get home.

Lastly, I'll add that I used to run tours that used vehicles. I often had friends ask me to join for free. My reply was that if the evening before there was an available seat then we will work out the cost for the permits that were required. However, if I was giving out free seats at other times I'm losing out on the £100 that a paying customer could have given me for the same seat. When you worked in fast food if you took a burger the company is losing out on the £4ish someone would otherwise have paid for said burger. There is no such costs associated with staff travel, this is the difference in your scenario. However, again, this issue was not about free travel.
 
V

Viper

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2020
Messages
33
Location
York
My issue with that is that he felt hard done by when someone said no. I don't see an issue with a polite request to a railway colleague as long as there's no level of expectation and you're happy to accept if they say no.

I went to Leeds recently and was caught short and thought it may be nice to use the LNER 1st lounge bathroom instead of the main concourse bathrooms. I knew it was a cheeky ask, but not one that would put anyone out, so I asked for a kind favour, happy to walk off if he said no.

I know some of my colleagues have asked conductors of quiet trains if they may sit in 1st, once again, happy to accept no!
 
AlterEgo

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,249
Location
No longer here
bramling said:
So what has actually happened here? Is this a member of LNwR staff who hasn’t been let on, or someone else (LU judging by the handle?).
Click to expand...
Their employer is viewable on their social media; they work for a FOC.

800001 said:
It was a London Underground driver trying his luck.
Click to expand...
It wasn't.


It was very silly to post this on Twitter and is always going to be bad optics for the railway. However I don't really have an issue with staff cadging a lift politely in this way; whatever makes the wheels go round. I was let off fares or allowed in first class when I worked for the railway very often; I was always dressed in civvies and just blended in.
 
Last edited:
PudseyBearHST

PudseyBearHST

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2015
Messages
972
Location
South West
HullRailMan said:
I can confidently say that I never got anything for free in my time working in food retail, and certainly never got a benefit from a company in the same industry that I didn’t work for. Expecting a free ride from another company just because you work on trains is no different to helping yourself to free food just because you work in a shop.
Click to expand...
I know several people who work in various big supermarket chains and they regularly get free food or flowers that are going to expire. Just an unofficial perk of the job.
 
D

dodecahedron67

Member
Joined
8 Feb 2021
Messages
468
Location
York
Working in transport but not the railways, certainly the way we operate is ‘ask nicely and 99% of the time it’ll be a yes - but be prepared for a no’ (for example, me scrounging a freebie bus ride off Nottingham City Transport with a staff pass from Yorkshire…)
 
O

Oxfordblues

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
665
I once asked the driver of a Class 87 at Preston for a cab-ride to Euston. I had the necessary pass, but he didn't want to see it and just said "hop in"! That was about 1976.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top