Northern Training Leeds

GeneralMao · 12 Feb 2024

Hi there,

I’m currently in a recruitment process with northern and was curious as to if I’m successful and it comes down to the 4 months training in the Leeds Office what the rota tends to look like? I’m assuming 8 hours a day Mon-Fri with an hour break included. But what are the actual start times and is there flexibility there in regards to dropping children off to nursery?

Many thanks

RailUK Forums

LokiB · 12 Feb 2024

Training is Monday - Friday, 9am-4pm most days however there are certain days you'll be asked to come in a bit earlier. Not all days finish at 4pm, sometimes you'll get an earlier finish.

Tbh regarding flexibility I'm not sure there would be much scope really as the trainers would have to start/finish later.

Danfilm007 · 12 Feb 2024

LokiB said:
Training is Monday - Friday, 9am-4pm most days however there are certain days you'll be asked to come in a bit earlier. Not all days finish at 4pm, sometimes you'll get an earlier finish.

Tbh regarding flexibility I'm not sure there would be much scope really as the trainers would have to start/finish later.

Is this quite common for most training at TOCs?

LokiB · 12 Feb 2024

Danfilm007 said:
Is this quite common for most training at TOCs?

I'm not 100% sure tbh as I've not done it with other tocs but I'd be surprised if it wasn't pretty similar.

GeneralMao · 12 Feb 2024

LokiB said:
Training is Monday - Friday, 9am-4pm most days however there are certain days you'll be asked to come in a bit earlier. Not all days finish at 4pm, sometimes you'll get an earlier finish.

Tbh regarding flexibility I'm not sure there would be much scope really as the trainers would have to start/finish later.

That’s good to know I was stressing at the fact that if it was 8am/8:30 then dropping the little one off would be a struggle. I can’t imagine there being much flexibility but it was worth an ask. Thank you

class 9 · 12 Feb 2024

Also bear in mind once the classroom part of the training is finished you'll be doing the hours according to your mentors rota, which start at all sorts of times.

GeneralMao · 13 Feb 2024

class 9 said:
Also bear in mind once the classroom part of the training is finished you'll be doing the hours according to your mentors rota, which start at all sorts of times.

Oh yes I can see that being the case however I would see there being some flexibility there. Although im unsure on what shift patterns there is. I assume 4 on 4 off and a mixture of mornings/afternoons/evenings

43066 · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
Oh yes I can see that being the case however I would see there being some flexibility there.

Perhaps it would be better to work on the basis that there won’t be any flexibility whatsoever, and plan accordingly.

It’ll likely come down to the individual training you, and it might not be the best thing to start asking for flexibility during the training period in a new job.

LokiB · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
Oh yes I can see that being the case however I would see there being some flexibility there. Although im unsure on what shift patterns there is. I assume 4 on 4 off and a mixture of mornings/afternoons/evenings

There won't be any flexibility of start times when with your mentor. You will start at the same as they are booked as you will be booked to work a train as part of the diagram.

Not so much 4 on 4 off (can do 6 on) and mornings/lates/nights but the start/finish times do vary wildly.

43066 · 13 Feb 2024

LokiB said:
There won't be any flexibility of start times when with your mentor. You will start at the same as they are booked as you will be booked to work a train as part of the diagram.

Not so much 4 on 4 off (can do 6 on) and mornings/lates/nights but the start/finish times do vary wildly.

I’d assumed they were asking about ticket office training (the OP refers to training in the “Leeds Office” - but agreed it isn’t totally clear).

As you say, if it’s a guard role, there’s no chance of being able to turn up late, just as there won’t be when doing the actual job.

Danfilm007 · 13 Feb 2024

LokiB said:
I'm not 100% sure tbh as I've not done it with other tocs but I'd be surprised if it wasn't pretty similar.

Thanks!

GeneralMao · 13 Feb 2024

43066 said:
I’d assumed they were asking about ticket office training (the OP refers to training in the “Leeds Office” - but agreed it isn’t totally clear).

As you say, if it’s a guard role, there’s no chance of being able to turn up late, just as there won’t be when doing the actual job.

No sorry this would be a train driving role

LokiB said:
There won't be any flexibility of start times when with your mentor. You will start at the same as they are booked as you will be booked to work a train as part of the diagram.

Not so much 4 on 4 off (can do 6 on) and mornings/lates/nights but the start/finish times do vary wildly.

Okay, I am looking at there being o flexibility but it’s always good to ask, I’m surprised they would do 6 on, it sounds like the 35 hours a week advertised are just based over a period of time rather than set weekly

Class2ldn · 13 Feb 2024

Yeah but that 6 days could be over 2 weekly periods, so you could do say Wednesday - Monday so 4 days in the 1st week and then 2 in the next before rest days etc, railway week starts on a Sunday through to Saturday.
The 35 hour week is normally an average over the the whole rota, it doesn't mean you'll only do 35 hours each week, some weeks you'll do more , some less.
At my toc if you work the Sunday as its outside the working week you'll do 7 on the bounce before any rest days

43066 · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
No sorry this would be a train driving role

In that case there will be no flexibility whatsoever. The rules and traction courses are generally 9-3, Monday to Friday, and you won’t even be allowed to take leave during the classroom period, barring truly exceptional circumstances.

GeneralMao said:
Okay, I am looking at there being o flexibility but it’s always good to ask, I’m surprised they would do 6 on, it sounds like the 35 hours a week advertised are just based over a period of time rather than set weekly

Indeed, it’s based on an average and (particularly where you have a five day weekend every three weeks) you’ll have long runs of days on, and single rest days to compensate. It’s worth considering at this stage whether this type of shiftwork is for you.

There are people who work accommodated hours but this is when they’re established and something that needs to be applied for specifically (and isn’t guaranteed!). It isn’t going to be offered to someone brand new to the role.

CJBX · 13 Feb 2024

I am starting my driver training at Leeds on 18th March. I have signed and returned the contract and other forms but haven't got my joining instructions yet so can't be sure exactly of the structure.

One thing that has been mentioned though is that because the training is in Leeds, and the depot I will be working from is Blackburn (some 60 miles each way), I may be able to claim some sort of overtime to cover the travelling times?

LokiB · 13 Feb 2024

CJBX said:
I am starting my driver training at Leeds on 18th March. I have signed and returned the contract and other forms but haven't got my joining instructions yet so can't be sure exactly of the structure.

One thing that has been mentioned though is that because the training is in Leeds, and the depot I will be working from is Blackburn (some 60 miles each way), I may be able to claim some sort of overtime to cover the travelling times?

Yeah you'll get paid overtime for travelling if you travel in from your home depot, however they may put you in a hotel for the duration.

CJBX · 13 Feb 2024

Thanks LokiB, so is that only if I travel in from Blackburn and not if I get the train from say Manchester Victoria?

SiTheTrainGuy · 13 Feb 2024

CJBX said:
Thanks LokiB, so is that only if I travel in from Blackburn and not if I get the train from say Manchester Victoria?

Yeah I’ve heard the same. If I wanted to claim travel time I’d have to travel in the wrong direction 2 stations, to then travel to Leeds. Or so I’m lead to believe. Having said that, it’s only a 35 min train ride so not sure that’d count

LokiB · 13 Feb 2024

CJBX said:
Thanks LokiB, so is that only if I travel in from Blackburn and not if I get the train from say Manchester Victoria?

Yeah if you went to Man Vic you wouldn't get paid travel time, it's got to be from your home station.

driver9000 · 13 Feb 2024

CJBX said:
Thanks LokiB, so is that only if I travel in from Blackburn and not if I get the train from say Manchester Victoria?

Travelling time is based on your home depot location.

skyhigh · 13 Feb 2024

SiTheTrainGuy said:
Yeah I’ve heard the same. If I wanted to claim travel time I’d have to travel in the wrong direction 2 stations, to then travel to Leeds. Or so I’m lead to believe. Having said that, it’s only a 35 min train ride so not sure that’d count

It would count, but strictly only if you travel from your home depot. If you travel from home directly to Leeds without passing your home depot you are entitled to nothing.

GeneralMao · 13 Feb 2024

43066 said:
In that case there will be no flexibility whatsoever. The rules and traction courses are generally 9-3, Monday to Friday, and you won’t even be allowed to take leave during the classroom period, barring truly exceptional circumstances.

Indeed, it’s based on an average and (particularly where you have a five day weekend every three weeks) you’ll have long runs of days on, and single rest days to compensate. It’s worth considering at this stage whether this type of shiftwork is for you.

There are people who work accommodated hours but this is when they’re established and something that needs to be applied for specifically (and isn’t guaranteed!). It isn’t going to be offered to someone brand new to the role.

For me shift work isn’t a problem as I have allot of flexibility. Only potential issue I may have after the office training would be the morning starts, due to nursery commitments. That being said there are options for me but they would be not be ideal at all especially if there’s a 5am start for example.

I suppose I could always accept the job and then when it comes to the end of my traction course bring it up lol maybe they would be more flexible at that point

SteveL9 · 13 Feb 2024

There will be plenty of 5am starts (and earlier). You probably need to familiarise yourself with railway shifts to understand what you’re getting in to.

Class2ldn · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
For me shift work isn’t a problem as I have allot of flexibility. Only potential issue I may have after the office training would be the morning starts, due to nursery commitments. That being said there are options for me but they would be not be ideal at all especially if there’s a 5am start for example.

I suppose I could always accept the job and then when it comes to the end of my traction course bring it up lol maybe they would be more flexible at that point

If anything they will be less so, getting that far into training knowing you possibly can't meet the expectations of the job won't go down well so I'd think carefully before taking it on.
It also won't go down well with your colleagues at the depot, obviously people may be flexible to swap shifts in certain scenarios once you pass out but through training you'll be expected to commit to whatever is needed and once passed out you'll have no chance of being accommodated on certain shifts without a good few years under your belt.

driver9000 · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
For me shift work isn’t a problem as I have allot of flexibility. Only potential issue I may have after the office training would be the morning starts, due to nursery commitments. That being said there are options for me but they would be not be ideal at all especially if there’s a 5am start for example.

I suppose I could always accept the job and then when it comes to the end of my traction course bring it up lol maybe they would be more flexible at that point

This is a 24/7 industry so you will be expected to work whatever your rostered turn is and that will include 05:00 and earlier starts. You might be lucky and find someone to swap turns with you but that's not guaranteed and don't expect favours from the company so you can drop your kids off at nursery, those of us that have been doing this job for a few years have had to and continue to juggle family around work. That's the nature of the beast I'm afraid so you need to really consider if this type of shift working is going to be viable for you and your family before accepting the job because it'll be too late then.

Getting accommodated turns isn't unheard of but it's not easy even for experienced Drivers and very unlikely to be considered for a new starter. Once at a depot and you have a link position you will know what shifts you'll be working and be able to plan ahead to some degree of certainty with the exception of rostered spare days.

GeneralMao · 13 Feb 2024

driver9000 said:
This is a 24/7 industry so you will be expected to work whatever your rostered turn is and that will include 05:00 and earlier starts. You might be lucky and find someone to swap turns with you but that's not guaranteed and don't expect favours from the company so you can drop your kids off at nursery, those of us that have been doing this job for a few years have had to and continue to juggle family around work. That's the nature of the beast I'm afraid so you need to really consider if this type of shift working is going to be viable for you and your family before accepting the job because it'll be too late then.

Getting accommodated turns isn't unheard of but it's not easy even for experienced Drivers and very unlikely to be considered for a new starter. Once at a depot and you have a link position you will know what shifts you'll be working and be able to plan ahead to some degree of certainty with the exception of rostered spare days.

Understandable. I’m not really there to make friends and from what I’ve read everyone seems to get one up on people. and I wouldn’t class it as swapping shifts just prefer a later link. In the industry I am in now which is similar to train driving people had preferred shifts. And most people would want to do days, myself I much prefer nights just because of pay and work life balance.

I should be able to move things about however at the end of the day peoples lives do change and if they can’t accommodate that then that’s on them to do there best to provide that especially if your in an established role and past your probation.

On top of it I wouldn’t see the point getting so far into the process and then to decide actually Tuesdays don’t work for me so I just won’t ever apply. I’m aware of allot of drivers that do the same shifts and set days off. I think as well the apprenticeship wage which is ridiculous (also government funded) they need to be a bit more considerate for people applying.

Sheffcaster202 · 13 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
For me shift work isn’t a problem as I have allot of flexibility. Only potential issue I may have after the office training would be the morning starts, due to nursery commitments. That being said there are options for me but they would be not be ideal at all especially if there’s a 5am start for example.

I suppose I could always accept the job and then when it comes to the end of my traction course bring it up lol maybe they would be more flexible at that point

@GeneralMao I really think you need to consider if this is right for you, it’s not just class room training then looking for flexibility you need to consider

You’re going to be a trainee for almost a year, classroom training, minder period, route learning etc and have to do whatever shifts are booked for your minder (my depot has driver shifts starting at 0416 and finishing as late as 0116)
There’s also night turns for shunts, fuelling etc that you’d be expect to do.

Once all the initial part is out of the way (best part of a year when you factor in your leave, DTM availability for assessments, apprenticeship reviews etc) you’ll be assigned a line in a link, have to get well established and even then, swaps can be difficult depending on who signs the same routes as you, accommodation for hours is a long and needs to be well justified process.

GeneralMao said:
Understandable. I’m not really there to make friends and from what I’ve read everyone seems to get one up on people. and I wouldn’t class it as swapping shifts just prefer a later link. In the industry I am in now which is similar to train driving people had preferred shifts. And most people would want to do days, myself I much prefer nights just because of pay and work life balance.

I should be able to move things about however at the end of the day peoples lives do change and if they can’t accommodate that then that’s on them to do there best to provide that especially if your in an established role and past your probation.

On top of it I wouldn’t see the point getting so far into the process and then to decide actually Tuesdays don’t work for me so I just won’t ever apply. I’m aware of allot of drivers that do the same shifts and set days off. I think as well the apprenticeship wage which is ridiculous (also government funded) they need to be a bit more considerate for people applying.

Following my previous post…why are you applying for the role if you have such a negative outlook on it already?!

driver9000 · 14 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
Understandable. I’m not really there to make friends and from what I’ve read everyone seems to get one up on people. and I wouldn’t class it as swapping shifts just prefer a later link. In the industry I am in now which is similar to train driving people had preferred shifts. And most people would want to do days, myself I much prefer nights just because of pay and work life balance.

I should be able to move things about however at the end of the day peoples lives do change and if they can’t accommodate that then that’s on them to do there best to provide that especially if your in an established role and past your probation.

On top of it I wouldn’t see the point getting so far into the process and then to decide actually Tuesdays don’t work for me so I just won’t ever apply. I’m aware of allot of drivers that do the same shifts and set days off. I think as well the apprenticeship wage which is ridiculous (also government funded) they need to be a bit more considerate for people applying.

Rostering doesn't work that way and there is no "later link". You'll be expected to work all the shifts in the link working through the weeks in turn but you might be able to do a mutual swap on a daily or weekly basis with someone for their later starts if they want your earlies and that's assuming you can cover each others work. I'm certainly not trying to put you off because his job has a lot of benefits to it and I've been doing it for a good few years now but if you're after flexible working then train driving usually isn't the place to look for it I'm afraid. You really need to think about what you're walking into.

Horizon22 · 14 Feb 2024

GeneralMao said:
Understandable. I’m not really there to make friends and from what I’ve read everyone seems to get one up on people. and I wouldn’t class it as swapping shifts just prefer a later link. In the industry I am in now which is similar to train driving people had preferred shifts. And most people would want to do days, myself I much prefer nights just because of pay and work life balance.

I should be able to move things about however at the end of the day peoples lives do change and if they can’t accommodate that then that’s on them to do there best to provide that especially if your in an established role and past your probation.

On top of it I wouldn’t see the point getting so far into the process and then to decide actually Tuesdays don’t work for me so I just won’t ever apply. I’m aware of allot of drivers that do the same shifts and set days off. I think as well the apprenticeship wage which is ridiculous (also government funded) they need to be a bit more considerate for people applying.

Unfortunately it won’t work quite like that. What is a “later link”? There are people who prefer earlier shifts to late shifts that you might be able to swap too, but that won’t come immediately. It’s shift work and it’s fairly extreme shift work at that, so you’ll really need to think hard about whether you’ve appreciated the realities of this.

Not many drivers “do the same shifts and set days off” so not sure where you’ve got that from.

I think you are approaching this rather naively and need to realise you wouldn’t be getting any preferential treatment. I’d think long and hard about whether this is really for you because you don’t want to be miserable because you’re in the job and have to deal with the realities of train driver shifts that can’t correspond with your personal situation. I’d recommend listening and taking the advice from those on these forums who do the role.

GeneralMao · 14 Feb 2024

Sheffcaster202 said:
@GeneralMao I really think you need to consider if this is right for you, it’s not just class room training then looking for flexibility you need to consider

You’re going to be a trainee for almost a year, classroom training, minder period, route learning etc and have to do whatever shifts are booked for your minder (my depot has driver shifts starting at 0416 and finishing as late as 0116)
There’s also night turns for shunts, fuelling etc that you’d be expect to do.

Once all the initial part is out of the way (best part of a year when you factor in your leave, DTM availability for assessments, apprenticeship reviews etc) you’ll be assigned a line in a link, have to get well established and even then, swaps can be difficult depending on who signs the same routes as you, accommodation for hours is a long and needs to be well justified process.

Following my previous post…why are you applying for the role if you have such a negative outlook on it already?!

I wouldn’t say it’s a negative outlook but more of a realistic one. As I’ve stated already I have options available for me so I’m trying to run through all possible scenarios. It really is something they should advertise though as part of the recruitment process.

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