• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should there be a total ban on autofill for Railcards on online ticket sales

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,701
But the loss is £30 plus the sum of all the discounts given. If I've used a 1/3 discount that I'm not entitled to 10 times on a £30 fare, then the loss is £30 + ((£30*1/3)*10), which is actually £130. This is based on actual usage.

That sounds reasonable when put like that but I cannot see how it is actually correct.

Let's look at the plausible scenarios:
If I renew my railcard I pay £30 and continue to pay discounted fares.
If I forget to renew my railcard I'll pay discounted fares but have possibly saved myself £30*.
If I decide to chance not renewing it and pay discounted fares in the hope I get away with it, I've saved £30.
In what scenario would I decide to not renew and then make 10 journeys at un-discounted fares?
I clearly know about railcards because I had one before and we're considering the situation where I still qualify for it.
It's not likely I would keep paying full fare so the railway would almost certainly never have had the money in the first place and therefore can't have lost it.

Putting it another way, the difference between discounted and full fares is only due because of the act of non renewal. So how can this act have caused the loss of this amount of money?

And even if that was the actual loss, how on earth could the loss then also include the £30 railcard fee not paid?

Yes I absolutely agree that the railway is within its rights to demand the difference in fares - railcard discounts aren't retrospective. And there's good arguments for an admin fee. But justifying charging far more on top of that on the grounds that the passenger has caused the railway to lose considerable sums of money defies all logic to me.

* Of course if I have a 16-23 or 24-30 railcard and do the sensible thing of renewing at the last moment, my months of not having a railcard may have saved me nothing.

If the railway treats it as solely the cost of the railcard, then that provides a powerful incentive to take a "pay when challenged" approach, in the knowledge that the amount I'll be made to pay is unlikely to add up to the ticket value, and so make it worth trying on repeatedly.

I can see that if you genuinely believe that the railway is losing money each time someone uses an expired railcard then the reasoning above would make sense.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Buzby

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2023
Messages
630
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
A further consideration is that many of us go for the 3-year option (all paid up front) and then were told NOT to travel. This restriction resulted in many expecting to have the validity extended to cover the period of enforced restrictions - but the man says no.

That’s not fair either, but we supposedly have to suck it up for the greater good. I’m not sympathetic to the position taken by the railway and I doubt many others do either.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,278
Location
St Albans
If I forget to renew my railcard I'll pay discounted fares but have possibly saved myself £30*.
If I decide to chance not renewing it and pay discounted fares in the hope I get away with it, I've saved £30.
In what scenario would I decide to not renew and then make 10 journeys at un-discounted fares?
I clearly know about railcards because I had one before and we're considering the situation where I still qualify for it.
It's not likely I would keep paying full fare so the railway would almost certainly never have had the money in the first place and therefore can't have lost it.

Putting it another way, the difference between discounted and full fares is only due because of the act of non renewal. So how can this act have caused the loss of this amount of money?

And even if that was the actual loss, how on earth could the loss then also include the £30 railcard fee not paid?

Yes I absolutely agree that the railway is within its rights to demand the difference in fares - railcard discounts aren't retrospective. And there's good arguments for an admin fee. But justifying charging far more on top of that on the grounds that the passenger has caused the railway to lose considerable sums of money defies all logic to me.

* Of course if I have a 16-23 or 24-30 railcard and do the sensible thing of renewing at the last moment, my months of not having a railcard may have saved me nothing.



As far as the railway is concerned, travelling after forgetting to renew their railcard is exactly the same as deliberately not renewing their railcard. Only the individual who is in that situation knows the truth, - but as shown in posts in the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' forum convincing the ticket inspectors/investigators aren't necessarily going fall for that as every person trying to game the system will just cliam that (genuinely forgot), otherwise it's the 'pay when challenged' scenario again.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,296
That sounds reasonable when put like that but I cannot see how it is actually correct.

Let's look at the plausible scenarios:
If I renew my railcard I pay £30 and continue to pay discounted fares.
If I forget to renew my railcard I'll pay discounted fares but have possibly saved myself £30*.
If I decide to chance not renewing it and pay discounted fares in the hope I get away with it, I've saved £30.
In what scenario would I decide to not renew and then make 10 journeys at un-discounted fares?
I clearly know about railcards because I had one before and we're considering the situation where I still qualify for it.
It's not likely I would keep paying full fare so the railway would almost certainly never have had the money in the first place and therefore can't have lost it.

Putting it another way, the difference between discounted and full fares is only due because of the act of non renewal. So how can this act have caused the loss of this amount of money?

And even if that was the actual loss, how on earth could the loss then also include the £30 railcard fee not paid?

Yes I absolutely agree that the railway is within its rights to demand the difference in fares - railcard discounts aren't retrospective. And there's good arguments for an admin fee. But justifying charging far more on top of that on the grounds that the passenger has caused the railway to lose considerable sums of money defies all logic to me.

* Of course if I have a 16-23 or 24-30 railcard and do the sensible thing of renewing at the last moment, my months of not having a railcard may have saved me nothing.



I can see that if you genuinely believe that the railway is losing money each time someone uses an expired railcard then the reasoning above would make sense.
If we're talking about an expired railcard, then the loss of revenue is still as I've calculated. The tickets have been purchased at the discounted rate, when the rate was not available because the railcard wasn't held. The actual loss would depend on the number of tickets actually purchased, not a hypothetical calculation of what might happen.

There are then two separate questions. One is to ask whether deliberate non-renewal and subsequent purchase of discounted fares is plausible. That raises questions about the level and priority of enforcement. The second, coming back to the OP, is whether auto-filling railcard data is appropriate. That, as I observed in a previous post, is heavily dependent on the use case - in my circumstances, it is wholly unhelpful; in others, it would be extremely useful.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,633
I'm unclear why anyone who fails to check their railcard validity has anyone to blame but themselves.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,701
I'm unclear why anyone who fails to check their railcard validity has anyone to blame but themselves.

I'm unclear why one wouldn't take the same approach to human error like this as we do to human error in safety related areas - look at what contributed to the error and try to take measures to reduce the likelihood or impact of re-occurences.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,633
I'm unclear why one wouldn't take the same approach to human error like this as we do to human error in safety related areas - look at what contributed to the error and try to take measures to reduce the likelihood or impact of re-occurences.
With respect, that's a slightly odd process-based approach to life. This isn't some kind of health and safety issue. Some things in life are just about you taking responsibility for yourself.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,374
I'm unclear why one wouldn't take the same approach to human error like this as we do to human error in safety related areas - look at what contributed to the error and try to take measures to reduce the likelihood or impact of re-occurences.
On that basis one option would be to bar the errant individual from buying any future railcards. After all, a train driver who doesn't observe signals correctly would soon be barred from driving trains.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,701
On that basis one option would be to bar the errant individual from buying any future railcards. After all, a train driver who doesn't observe signals correctly would soon be barred from driving trains.

I'd argue that would be the equivalent of not bothering with AWS, TPWS, DRAs, considering signal sighting etc. and just working on the principle of sacking anyone who made a mistake.
 

LlanishenBull

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2023
Messages
6
Location
Cardiff
I omitted to add my railcard (tfw app) when I was buying in a hurry recently. Realised my error, bought another ticket and claimed for the errant ticket which was refunded. Good customer service.

I did suggest some sort of option to default the app to a chosen railcard when logged in to your account. Don't think whoever read my suggestion understood it judging by the response .
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,278
Location
St Albans
I'd argue that would be the equivalent of not bothering with AWS, TPWS, DRAs, considering signal sighting etc. and just working on the principle of sacking anyone who made a mistake.
It's nothing like the safety issues that you keep trying to compare it to. If you want a comparison, consider driving without VED on your vehicle. There's no safety issue, - just failing to pay a legal duty. When pulled up by an ANPR system, it makes no difference whether it was deliberate or accidental, a fine will follow.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,374
consider driving without VED on your vehicle. There's no safety issue, - just failing to pay a legal duty. When pulled up by an ANPR system, it makes no difference whether it was deliberate or accidental, a fine will follow.
But surely the government (?) have only mussed out on the unpaid amount so that is all that should be due?!!
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,678
It's the passenger's responsibility to make sure they have a valid ticket to travel.

While I have some sympathy with your argument it's simply not possible to check every ticket on every train. I live on the Thameslink Line where 12 carriage trains regularly carry 1,500+ passengers. You could set gatelines to reject railcard discounted tickets to conduct a manual check (in fact my local station does do this) but it causes chaos with long queues of people to be manually checked, such thatthe end up having to 'wave' people through.
When when I'm at quieter stations I get waved through.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,278
Location
St Albans
But surely the government (?) have only mussed out on the unpaid amount so that is all that should be due?!!
No, VED is a legally required duty, and there are plenty who try it on, thinking that they can get away without payment. So there has to be a deterrent. That deterrent is £100 reduced to £50 if the vehicle is taxed within 21 days. Failure to do that, the rgistered keeper is liable to get a Single Justice Procedure Notice of £1000 of 5 times the tax due. If the vehicle has a SORN at the time, the penalty is raised to £2500.
So you see, a simple mistake (however genuine) results in a small fine (if the culprit engages and settles promptly). At the other extreme, the blatant abuser of the SORN system gets a more fitting penalty for false registration.
 

sprunt

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
1,176
But as a customer should you not be responsible for what you buy?

Its not as though it isn't clear a railcard discount is being added.

How so? Is there a message displayed, with some sort of emphasis added or are you just saying they should realise from the price being charged? Given the range of prices available for an advance, I don't think this is necessarily reasonable.

Under the UK GDPR there is a legal recognition that submission of an autofilled box on a web form does not constitute a user giving explicit permission for an organisation to send them marketing material. Given this legal recognition that submission of an autofilled web form element is not an explicit request for the action triggered by that form element, I don't see why the same principle shouldn't apply here - the customer has not requested a railcard-discounted ticket and shouldn't bear responsibility for one being issued.
 

Deafdoggie

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2016
Messages
3,102
How so? Is there a message displayed, with some sort of emphasis added or are you just saying they should realise from the price being charged? Given the range of prices available for an advance, I don't think this is necessarily reasonable.

Under the UK GDPR there is a legal recognition that submission of an autofilled box on a web form does not constitute a user giving explicit permission for an organisation to send them marketing material. Given this legal recognition that submission of an autofilled web form element is not an explicit request for the action triggered by that form element, I don't see why the same principle shouldn't apply here - the customer has not requested a railcard-discounted ticket and shouldn't bear responsibility for one being issued.
Yes, the ticket clearly says it is discounted. Online it clearly, and several times, tells you you have a railcard discount and to not forget your railcard.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,700
Location
Wales
It should be an opt-in thing: "Remember by railcard for future purchases" or similar.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,278
Location
St Albans
It should be an opt-in thing: "Remember by railcard for future purchases" or similar.
There will always be some who then opt in and then don't have a railcard to show when asked and try to blame somebody else. :rolleyes:
 

Top