Should there be a total ban on autofill for Railcards on online ticket sales

[Haywain]

TPR licenses currently explicitly prohibit retail of the Disabled Persons and Veterans Railcards. This may or may not continue to be the case in the next few years. So yeah, the autofill logic limitations kinda are related to what TPRs are permitted to do! If you can sell a VET Railcard then you'll know if it's in date and still valid or not.

I can't see that changing, given that TOCs can't sell them either.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I can't see that changing, given that TOCs can't sell them either.

Do any TOCs sell them online? All the ones that I tried to buy a F&F from simply redirect to the railcard site anyway. But I concede I didn't try them all!

 

[Krokodil]

Yes, it's a fair criticism. I'd say a good chunk of passengers simply tend to use their preferred ticketing retailer when selecting who to buy their Railcard from, but you're right in suggesting that the Railcard retailer has more information than potentially other ticket retailers so the experience may not be as slick.

Many will (as you say) buy both tickets and railcard through Trainline (I don't have much good to say about them but the ability to go straight from ticket to railcard when inspecting saves a lot of time). Some will buy their railcards at a discount from TrainPal and then revert to their usual retailer for other purchases. Others will buy their railcard from NRE, or use a physical one. So there's plenty who do buy them separately.

 

[MrJeeves]

Do any TOCs sell them online? All the ones that I tried to buy a F&F from simply redirect to the railcard site anyway. But I concede I didn't try them all!

EMR sell railcards directly: https://railcards.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/

 

[infobleep]

Should everyone be given one chance, ie. if they are caught with an expired railcard once they are given a warning and a not or marker can be added to their account saying they have had the said warning and if caught again have the book thrown at them.

Yes some people may chance it and would mean they get one discounted ticket they aren't entitled to, but I suspect many more genuine mistakes would go down as just that, a mistake and a new railcard would be bought and the railway comes out of it looking fair and in a positive light rather than the often bad light it comes across in with ticketing issues.

Indeed. So if a customer inadvertently buys a ticket with a railcard as a result of the retailer's action in autofilling the railcard box, the consequences should land on the retailer.

I thought tge point of penalty fares was for people making honest mistakes.

Perhaps if it can be proven the retailer auto-populated they could be issued a penalty fare too.

There is another angle to this. What about people who have ADHD or are dyslexic. These are the kinds of people who might get something wrong in regards to railcards auto populating.

 

[Haywain]

EMR sell railcards directly: https://railcards.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/

But not those that TPRs can't sell.

 

[infobleep]

But not those that TPRs cant sell.

What does TRP stand for?
Travel Retail Practice?

 

[Haywain]

What does TRP stand for?
Travel Retail Practice?

TPR = third party retailer

 

[sheff1]

So because I use a plastic railcard I have to put up with this pop-up message nonsense? I actually find it very useful that apps remember that I have a railcard.

I have a plastic Railcard but I don't want an app to autofill it unless I had actively asked it too (which I havem't). Obviously, if i had asked the app to autofill I would not want to see a pop up.

Because that's a pig to implement (eg who's on which Railcard?) and hardly anyone needs that feature.

On what do you base that statement ? Many I time i need to book tickets where one or more, but not all, in the party have a Railcard and/or those who do do not all hold the same Railcard - fortunately it is easy to make such bookings on various websites so need to use an app which can't deal with it.

 

[infobleep]

TPR = third party retailer

Thanks. Having a dyslexic moment I typed TRP when of course it's TPR.

I wouldn't have figured out Third Party bit though.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I thought tge point of penalty fares was for people making honest mistakes.

Perhaps if it can be proven the retailer auto-populated they could be issued a penalty fare too.

There is another angle to this. What about people who have ADHD or are dyslexic. These are the kinds of people who might get something wrong in regards to railcards auto populating.

Penalty fares are for exactly that, I agree, but a few hundred pounds for a genuine mistake for someone who purchases tickets in good faith and goes out of their way to purchase rail cards etc in the first place and forgets an expiry date which could so easily be reminded seems harsh and often people who don't purchase tickets at all are punished less than a genuine mistake. I think a one strike rule for railcard holders would be a fair outcome for all.

 

[superkopite]

I thought tge point of penalty fares was for people making honest mistakes.

This tells you all you need to know about what is wrong with rail (well, not all, it's a bloody long list, but you get my point) no other serious industry would think about introducing huge penalties for honest mistakes.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

This tells you all you need to know about what is wrong with rail (well, not all, it's a bloody long list, but you get my point) no other serious industry would think about introducing huge penalties for honest mistakes.

Indeed

 

[wilbers]

Penalty fares are for exactly that, I agree, but a few hundred pounds for a genuine mistake for someone who purchases tickets in good faith and goes out of their way to purchase rail cards etc in the first place and forgets an expiry date which could so easily be reminded seems harsh and often people who don't purchase tickets at all are punished less than a genuine mistake. I think a one strike rule for railcard holders would be a fair outcome for all.

There has to be some penalty for not renewing the railcard earlier, but if done as soon as told should be a smaller one - maybe the £50 penalty fare, but the actual ticket remains valid if proof of the new railcard is sent in, or if bought digitally on the train maybe discretion should be allowed to just accept it. All assuming the criteria for getting the railcard still apply (mostly age, but could be home address for some of the lesser known local ones).

 

[paul1609]

Yes, it's a fair criticism. I'd say a good chunk of passengers simply tend to use their preferred ticketing retailer when selecting who to buy their Railcard from, but you're right in suggesting that the Railcard retailer has more information than potentially other ticket retailers so the experience may not be as slick.

People who constantly shop around tend to accept the loss of convenience, though.

I don't actually shop around that much actually but probably use different retailers depending on what I'm buying. If you're spending a significant amount on same day purchases its difficult to ignore the 5% cashback plus 1.3 virgin points per £ via American Express and train line I enjoy till mid March.
Normally I'd check on train split to check out splits but being based on the Kent coast these don't work out that great normally. I end up buying a to London u zones add on ticket from trainsplit. Then the trunk ticket from virgin ticketing redeeming virgin red points or earning 4.3(2.1 discount)

 

[Essan]

Indeed. So if a customer inadvertently buys a ticket with a railcard as a result of the retailer's action in autofilling the railcard box, the consequences should land on the retailer.

But as a customer should you not be responsible for what you buy?

Its not as though it isn't clear a railcard discount is being added. If you know you don't have a valid railcard, then IMO, you are wholly responsible.

Besides I question whether most of the cases we hear about are down to genuinely not knowing their railcards have expired. Albeit I perhaps have too high a regard for human intelligence

 

[TUC]

What I have found with some apps, such as Northern's, is that I have added a railcard when helping a family member search for a fare, only to find it had remembered the railcard and added it when searching for a ticket for myself on a later date. It has similarly, when searching for tickets for a set of family members travelling together (e.g. One adult, two children) that it added this permutation when next buying a ticket. People could easily buy an incorrect ticket/more tickets then required because of this.

 

[Hadders]

Should everyone be given one chance, ie. if they are caught with an expired railcard once they are given a warning and a not or marker can be added to their account saying they have had the said warning and if caught again have the book thrown at them.

Yes some people may chance it and would mean they get one discounted ticket they aren't entitled to, but I suspect many more genuine mistakes would go down as just that, a mistake and a new railcard would be bought and the railway comes out of it looking fair and in a positive light rather than the often bad light it comes across in with ticketing issues.

I can't see this working.

I 'forget' that my railcard's expired and decide to chance it until I'm caught. It could be months before I'm asked for my railcard.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I can't see this working.

I 'forget' that my railcard's expired and decide to chance it until I'm caught. It could be months before I'm asked for my railcard.

Then is that not conductors, rpi , gate line s fault? Why is it always passengers fault ‍, if its months before they fancy a check, but I'm (passenger) expected to, even if its a while since last used.

 

[Hadders]

Then is that not conductors, rpi , gate line s fault? Why is it always passengers fault ‍, if its months before they fancy a check, but I'm (passenger) expected to, even if its a while since last used.

It's the passenger's responsibility to make sure they have a valid ticket to travel.

While I have some sympathy with your argument it's simply not possible to check every ticket on every train. I live on the Thameslink Line where 12 carriage trains regularly carry 1,500+ passengers. You could set gatelines to reject railcard discounted tickets to conduct a manual check (in fact my local station does do this) but it causes chaos with long queues of people to be manually checked, such thatthe end up having to 'wave' people through.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It's the passenger's responsibility to make sure they have a valid ticket to travel.

While I have some sympathy with your argument it's simply not possible to check every ticket on every train. I live on the Thameslink Line where 12 carriage trains regularly carry 1,500+ passengers. You could set gatelines to reject railcard discounted tickets to conduct a manual check (in fact my local station does do this) but it causes chaos with long queues of people to be manually checked, such thatthe end up having to 'wave' people through.

I just think a happy medium could be met somewhere. Persistent fare dodgers need punishing, harshly to stop re offending, poor Bob, who uses his rail card a few times a year, but its for a long journey, so doesn't realise its run out and ends up out of pocket to the tune of hundreds for a genuine mistake doesn't sit well with me.

Police can arrest anyone for being drunk and disorderly, or under section 5 pretty much raising your voice, but, discretion is shown to people who will listen, go home and likely not do it again. The railway use it as revenue, wrong on all levels.

 

[TUC]

I just think a happy medium could be met somewhere. Persistent fare dodgers need punishing, harshly to stop re offending, poor Bob, who uses his rail card a few times a year, but its for a long journey, so doesn't realise its run out and ends up out of pocket to the tune of hundreds for a genuine mistake doesn't sit well with me.

Surely it's the other way round? If you only use your railcard occasionally you're far more likely to check if it is still valid. It's those who use their railcard day in, day out, who are less likely to check.

 

[wilbers]

Surely it's the other way round? If you only use your railcard occasionally you're far more likely to check if it is still valid. It's those who use their railcard day in, day out, who are less likely to check.

If you use it regularly then [especially if its in physical form] you have a good chance of noticing its about to expire, and may get a reminder if its inspected in its last week of validity.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Surely it's the other way round? If you only use your railcard occasionally you're far more likely to check if it is still valid. It's those who use their railcard day in, day out, who are less likely to check..

Surely it's the other way round? If you only use your railcard occasionally you're far more likely to check if it is still valid. It's those who use their railcard day in, day out, who are less likely to check.

Well that's your opinion, no where else in the world bar probably north Korea are you going to get punished as harshly as our railways do for a single mistake. Three, four, five fair enough, throw the book to the full extent. But prices are rising , numbers are falling, people are losing faith in railways because of delays, engineering works over running, prices getting ridiculous and to top it off bully boys not showing discretion and most not even understanding the rules they are meant to be enforcing.


It's so bloody frustrating, I understand the railway, the rules etc. But I hear and see so many who get in trouble so quickly for a single mistake, but haven't a clue they can claim for delays etc. Its backwards to all other service.

 

[Hadders]

Well that's your opinion, no where else in the world bar probably north Korea are you going to get punished as harshly as our railways do for a single mistake. Three, four, five fair enough, throw the book to the full extent. But prices are rising , numbers are falling, people are losing faith in railways because of delays, engineering works over running, prices getting ridiculous and to top it off bully boys not showing discretion and most not even understanding the rules they are meant to be enforcing.


It's so bloody frustrating, I understand the railway, the rules etc. But I hear and see so many who get in trouble so quickly for a single mistake, but haven't a clue they can claim for delays etc. Its backwards to all other service.

Bear in mind we generally only hear about cases on here that have been escalated. Every day staff show discresion to people with ticketing irregularities but we won't hear about those cases on here.

As I said I do have some sympathy with what you're saying. I do think there should be wider use of Penalty Fares with a proper independent appeals system, a Penalty Fare being a higher than normal fare sold to someone who has made a mistake. The issue is where you draw the line - a railcard a couple of days out of date - Penalty Fare. A week? A month? Do you issue a Penalty Fare or report for further investigation? What if further investigation shows lots of tickets purchased when the railcard was expired?

Everyone who posts on here believes they should be shown discresion.....

 

[Haywain]

If you only use your railcard occasionally you're far more likely to check if it is still valid.

Experience tells me otherwise. It used to be the case that people would turn up at a ticket office and ask for a discounted ticket, we would ask to see the railcard and then see that it was out of date - sometimes by many, many months, and on one occasion with me by years!!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Bear in mind we generally only hear about cases on here that have been escalated. Every day staff show discresion to people with ticketing irregularities but we won't hear about those cases on here.

As I said I do have some sympathy with what you're saying. I do think there should be wider use of Penalty Fares with a proper independent appeals system, a Penalty Fare being a higher than normal fare sold to someone who has made a mistake. The issue is where you draw the line - a railcard a couple of days out of date - Penalty Fare. A week? A month? Do you issue a Penalty Fare or report for further investigation? What if further investigation shows lots of tickets purchased when the railcard was expired?

Everyone who posts on here believes they should be shown discresion.....

Going back to my first comment on this thread, I would offer anyone, who has taken the.time to buy a railcard, use it perfectly apart from one occasion a opportunity to not do it again, have their account marked for such and I'm sure it would never happen again. But im.sorry to repeat myself, but people who make shirt journeys without any ticket seem to be punished less than a one time mistake from some who had a lapse.

In my opinion it's wrong.

 

[sheff1]

But as a customer should you not be responsible for what you buy?

Its not as though it isn't clear a railcard discount is being added.

I would expect the site/app I am using to offer me the ticket I have entered details for, not the discounted one it thinks I want because I have bought one before.

It is not immediately clear on the LNER app for example that a railcard discount has been added when you haven't asked for one - I was just about to pay when I noticed it the first time. Of course now I do know, I keep a close look out and when I have used up the vouchers I bought because of the cashback offer I will no longer use an app which seems to think I want a ticket which I haven't asked for.

 

[Krokodil]

Then is that not conductors, rpi , gate line s fault? Why is it always passengers fault ‍, if its months before they fancy a check, but I'm (passenger) expected to, even if its a while since last used.

"I didn't notice that the joint of lamb was in my bag, I thought that it was some onions, no one's ever complained before..."

 

[Richardr]

Well that's your opinion, no where else in the world bar probably north Korea are you going to get punished as harshly as our railways do for a single mistake. Three, four, five fair enough, throw the book to the full extent. But prices are rising , numbers are falling, people are losing faith in railways because of delays, engineering works over running, prices getting ridiculous and to top it off bully boys not showing discretion and most not even understanding the rules they are meant to be enforcing.


It's so bloody frustrating, I understand the railway, the rules etc. But I hear and see so many who get in trouble so quickly for a single mistake, but haven't a clue they can claim for delays etc. Its backwards to all other service.

First time caught is not necessarily the same as a single mistake.