It did very briefly, then stopped.
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Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets
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notadriver
Established Member
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Also this system only controls adherence to speed limits - it does not monitor or control speed on approach to adverse signals like ATP/ ETCS does. KVB does better than TASS in that way.
It’s not just on curves, the speed supervised function monitors the speed at all times on Tass fitted lines.
Which technological developments would those be?
The tilt gear weights circa 8 tonnes per vehicle and having tilt mechanisms fitted is mutually exclusive so several ways manufacturers have used to reduce weight.
Tilt vehicles will always be heavy...
They'll be heavy compared to a non tilt version yes, but lighter yet stronger materials, better mechanical layouts that use less parts all reduce weight and in 20 or so years since first development I'm quite sure there's been weight reductions.
nlogax
Established Member
Appreciate the info about what TASS does, though to be fair I already had an understanding of that. Why 'obselete' though?
*I'll ask a mod to split this out to a new infra thread as it's not so much about the new stock.
*I'll ask a mod to split this out to a new infra thread as it's not so much about the new stock.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Apparently Alstom will not consider re-writing it for another train design.
It's unique to the UK because of the WCML loading gauge restrictions, and any future order for tilting trains would not fund the software development.
It's not obsolete in the sense of being dead or unmaintainable, but Alstom are saying it has no future - its focus will be on ETCS.
Usage of TASS will also decline when the WCML Voyagers are transferred away.
The potential for tilt mechanism weight reduction is tiny, the elephant in the room you seem to be missing is that many weight reductions achieved on other rolling stock in the intervening years (*including 805s and 807s*) are incompatible with tilt functionality hence the weight difference been tilt and non-tilt is increasing (despite you optimism for tiny tilt mechanism weight reductions, the non tilt and incompatible with tilt are far larger) allowing far better acceleration, braking and energy performance for the non-tilt stock especially if it does more stops.
Speed limits around the big hills on the northern WCML are limited by friction braking capabilities is rheostatic or regen braking isn't functional so you can actually have higher max speeds down (and hence up to before hand) with lighter not tilt units.
Many engineers have done lots of modelling and have reached the conclusion that currently tilt is not the way to go.
Equivalent functionality could be implemented on routes with ETCS in use using the onboard ETCS equipment.
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I'm quite aware that non tilt trains are indeed offering much better weight reductions than tilt. I however was simple stating(regardless of measure) that there would be reductions in weight for newer tilt trains vs their older counterparts in the last 20 years.
As you said indeed, non tilt trains offer these days much better output overall.
danbarjon
Member
After having a watch of the Rail North Committee's latest meeting Avanti do seem pretty set on the transition plan seeing a first train entered into service around the June Timetable Change. So let's hope by summer we can enjoy the new trains although I won't bank on it...
baker_06
Member
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Got gen from a Wolverhampton driver yesterday who informed me about this for today. A 'training train' started to operate from this week. This morning Oxley - Euston. Euston - Crewe and Crewe - Oxley with 805009.
Some days also have a PM diagram which operates basically the same as above but in reverse.
Some days also have a PM diagram which operates basically the same as above but in reverse.
Good to hear, hopefully introduction won’t be too far away then!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
805 002, in plain white livery, just called at Crewe en route from Preston to Euston via Stoke.
5Q13 on RTT.
5Q13 on RTT.
DJH1971
Established Member
Does that mean driver training has commenced?
danbarjon
Member
Fingers crossed it goes with what the Managing Director said which was that they are hoping for a summer introduction.
paddyb6
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Just to confirm what is the plan for the 805/807s;
Assuming 805s on N Wales and some Birminghams? 807 on Liverpool and Blackpool?
Cheers
Assuming 805s on N Wales and some Birminghams? 807 on Liverpool and Blackpool?
Cheers
805s/807s running on the Euston-Birmingham semi-fast (xx:21 from Birmingham and xx:16 from Euston), with some of those also extending to Blackpool. The Blackpool via the Trent Valley service is also looking to be run by 805s/807s. 807s on 1tph to Liverpool, with an additional train per hour being run by a 390. 805s to North Wales.
The Birmingham/Blackpool services will be the most likely to see 390 substitutions. If/when Birminghams go up to 3tph, the semi-fast service should be mostly 80x.
The initial debut for 805s will be London-Birmingham services.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
All I can say is thank god that avanti already feature full info on rtt, I'll be avoiding 80x booked services where ever possible or indeed switching my custom away to wmr assuming the long distance version of the 730 is decent or indeed using Chiltern if they finally do the decent thing and scrap the clubman fleet in favor of something better
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
When did that become the case? I didn't think they were going to be used north of Weaver at all.
What's wrong with the Avanti 80x? They've got the same seats as the refurbished 390s, except with more bays and better window alignment. Long distance 730s are just 350s with the 730/0 seats except wider and with armrests, alongside a declassified first class section with the 197 variant of the Fainsa Sophia, they also won't run to Birmingham from London, and won't always be on the Trent Valley.
Dunno, apparently the plans have changed. There's plenty of slower 80x paths going to Blackpool though.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The plans were always to run 80x to Preston (and Blackpool) as well as Liverpool.
The non-tilt MU speed profile won't go north of Weaver Jn though.
And in the March Modern Railways, it says that the MU profile will be implemented in two phases, Euston-Rugby first, then Rugby-Weaver Jn.
That would fit with introduction to Birmingham first.
The non-tilt MU speed profile won't go north of Weaver Jn though.
And in the March Modern Railways, it says that the MU profile will be implemented in two phases, Euston-Rugby first, then Rugby-Weaver Jn.
That would fit with introduction to Birmingham first.
Think the plans are to run two units together. One for North Wales and the other for Blackpool splitting at Crewe.
Two 7 cars units would be too long for platforms However a 7 and 5 car could just about fit platforms
Halish Railway
Established Member
Prior to the pandemic there were a few Blackpool North to London Euston via Trent Valley Pendolino services, I was under the impression that these would be replaced by 807s with the same calling pattern, unless the plan has changed with the WCML recast and the paths for such a service are no longer available.
They won't run 805+807s in service, they're being cleared for rescue purposes though, that would be 312m long, around 48m longer than a 390/1.
For reference, an 805+807 formation would only fit at:
- Euston P1-4 and 15-16
- Rugby P2 and 4
- Nuneaton P2, 4 and 5
- Coventry P1-3
- Birmingham New St P1-4, 6-12
- Crewe P1 (down only), 6 (either direction for the mainline, down only if going towards Manchester) and 12
- Preston P3
- Chester P3
- Holyhead P1
- Runcorn P1
There's a path leaving Blackpool at 05:35, which already exists, but, from Crewe, this conflicts with the NWC service during later hours. It's entirely possible that what @92002 suggested could become a reality, however, I don't know if this is actually planned - the Avanti recast presentation has no mention of this happening.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are plenty of DMUs and EMUs that run well under 125 on that section so maybe the slower running isn't as much of an obstruction?
craigybagel
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There's not a whole lot of sections you can upgrade there. From South of Warrington to North of Wigan there aren't any EPS differentials. You'd only be able to knock a few seconds if anything on journey times, and given how few 805/7s are likely to go that way it's not going to be worth the money.
Given that the current Blackpoool services (and Preston terminaters) should really all be going to [Carlisle and] Glasgow, does that mean that most of the Brum-Preston-Glasgow trains have been written out of the timetable?
What level of government thinks this is a good idea? Obviously not anyone interested in "Levelling up" - or a party wanting any votes from rail travellers wanting to go to SW Scotland.