Merseyside Transport 1970s Liverpool Loop and After Plans

Mollington St · 15 Feb 2024

Just came across this interesting little publication issued by MPTE .

Firstly to explain the Liverpool Loop , but then as per the map i have attached it details some Line reopening and new Stations .

50 Years on and i am sure still on a drawing board somewhere .

I have scanned it and got it up on my site at www - Transport Past Times

RailUK Forums

Djgr · 15 Feb 2024

Mollington St said:
Just came across this interesting little publication issued by MPTE .

Firstly to explain the Liverpool Loop , but then as per the map i have attached it details some Line reopening and new Stations .

50 Years on and i am sure still on a drawing board somewhere .

I have scanned it and got it up on my site at www - Transport Past Times

Interesting to compare what did and did not happen. Clearly some of this came to pass, whilst other bits fell by the wayside.

Of course, not long after this publication we saw significant economic decline and Thatcher, the combination of which put a right damper on things!

Northerngirl · 16 Feb 2024

There's still the occasional mention of the edge hill tunnel reopening, usually its all forgotten about until another committee mentions it

Djgr · 16 Feb 2024

And of course there have been openings not within these plans e.g., Conway Park, Wavertree Technology Park, Brunswick, Halewood, Liverpool South Parkway

CaramellDansen · 21 Feb 2024

Djgr said:
Halewood

Halewood? What do you mean?

.

Bletchleyite · 21 Feb 2024

Here's a wider version of the map (in a different format) of the 1970s proposals...

CaramellDansen · 21 Feb 2024

Ah! I imagine the Halewood in the above plan would just be renamed to Halewood East, but I totally understand you now.

It pains me so much the lines with Belle Vale and Warbreck on them didn't survive. As an avid cyclist, I still would prefer a railway alignment to that dingy "rails-to-trails" hotbed of crime. I used to live near there and I'd find weapons and drugs along that path all the time, to the point where I got desensitised to it!! Now more than ever, Liverpool needs suburban rail. Merseyrail has failed us, and most of the rest of the city too.

Hahaha, why has Ford been renamed to Giro? Like, the cheque?! Also, I'm surprised how old the plans for Headbolt Lane are... Not only is Merseyrail decades behind where they should be, but they really had this long to come up with a better name and didn't??

*understand Djgr now

Bletchleyite · 21 Feb 2024

The National Girobank headquarters was right next to it.

CaramellDansen · 21 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
The National Girobank headquarters was right next to it.

Fair enough! This does remind me of the discussion around White Rose station near Leeds, as well as my aforementioned discussion about Headbolt Lane's name: naming stations after nearby businesses and minor roads is a terrible habit we need to move away from.

Ford is geographic, being the name of the ward, so it's descriptive and not likely to change. I've also heard Tower Hill as a better alternative to Headbolt Lane... sounds nicer, too!! I suppose it could cause conflict with the Tower Hill tube station.
Maybe Kirkby East and Kirkby West, keep it simple?

Bletchleyite · 21 Feb 2024

Certainly in the 80s some people (e.g. my parents) knew the area as Bootle Giro - I guess not now!

Kingston Dan · 21 Feb 2024

I'm not sure having a station called 'Giro' was a particularly good look for the city...

Bletchleyite · 21 Feb 2024

Kingston Dan said:
I'm not sure having a station called 'Giro' was a particularly good look for the city...

This was just external prejudice. Locally, the National Girobank was a highly respected employer and the area was known by many as Bootle Giro - "d'yer live by de Giro?".

It might not have aged well, but at the time that map was produced it made a lot of sense.

Kingston Dan · 22 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
This was just external prejudice. Locally, the National Girobank was a highly respected employer and the area was known by many as Bootle Giro - "d'yer live by de Giro?".

It might not have aged well, but at the time that map was produced it made a lot of sense.

Fair dos.

Djgr · 22 Feb 2024

Kingston Dan said:
Fair dos.

National Girobank did not just deal with government payments. It also offered bank accounts to the general public, particularly focused on those on low incomes who struggled to get accounts from the traditional providers. My first bank account was with them. Eventually flogged off with remnants within Santander.

CaramellDansen said:
Fair enough! This does remind me of the discussion around White Rose station near Leeds, as well as my aforementioned discussion about Headbolt Lane's name: naming stations after nearby businesses and minor roads is a terrible habit we need to move away from.

Ford is geographic, being the name of the ward, so it's descriptive and not likely to change. I've also heard Tower Hill as a better alternative to Headbolt Lane... sounds nicer, too!! I suppose it could cause conflict with the Tower Hill tube station.
Maybe Kirkby East and Kirkby West, keep it simple?

Absolutely agree with you on the Headbolt Lane nonsense. Given the decades that have gone by, you would have thought someone would have had the nous to rethink this.

CaramellDansen said:
Ah! I imagine the Halewood in the above plan would just be renamed to Halewood East, but I totally understand you now.

It pains me so much the lines with Belle Vale and Warbreck on them didn't survive. As an avid cyclist, I still would prefer a railway alignment to that dingy "rails-to-trails" hotbed of crime. I used to live near there and I'd find weapons and drugs along that path all the time, to the point where I got desensitised to it!! Now more than ever, Liverpool needs suburban rail. Merseyrail has failed us, and most of the rest of the city too.

Hahaha, why has Ford been renamed to Giro? Like, the cheque?! Also, I'm surprised how old the plans for Headbolt Lane are... Not only is Merseyrail decades behind where they should be, but they really had this long to come up with a better name and didn't??

*understand Djgr now

I think the moral of the story is that once the tracks have gone it is so much harder to make things happen.

Post link/loop, developments have primarily been a few new stations and a fair amount of electrification of existing lines. (I just spotted Overpool on the bigger map)

507020 · 22 Feb 2024

CaramellDansen said:
around White Rose station near Leeds, as well as my aforementioned discussion about Headbolt Lane's name: naming stations after nearby businesses and minor roads is a terrible habit we need to move away from.

Ford is geographic, being the name of the ward, so it's descriptive and not likely to change. I've also heard Tower Hill as a better alternative to Headbolt Lane... sounds nicer, too!!

I couldn’t disagree more and I don’t accept the use of Ford as a station name. Ignoring the Ford station already open on the west coastway, it’s just unnecessarily vague, there is too much association with the Ford motor company and if geographical, does this mean that the track has water running over it? Obviously Giro is just ridiculous, but the station was originally known as Captain’s Lane and we need to stick with exclusively using street names to refer to suburban stations to give the lines some amount of local character and I am very glad that the intended Headbolt Lane was chosen as the name, since this is the lane which the station is located on, although I was amused when at Todmorden last week seeing Headbolt Lane as the destination.

I note there is also a new station opening shortly which will be known only as Pineapple Road.

Northerngirl · 22 Feb 2024

It's ridiculous that Woodchurch is still a proposal given how long it's been considered, and I suppose the outer loop line will never happen, although of all the abandoned railways, its probably one of the most intact trackbeds

CaramellDansen · 22 Feb 2024

507020 said:
if geographical, does this mean that the track has water running over it?

Come on, now. Are you making fun of me?

The station is named after Ford... the place.

Ford, Merseyside - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Northerngirl said:
although of all the abandoned railways, its probably one of the most intact trackbeds

And it's still reserved for rail use! Merseyrail should, in my amateur opinion, be doing everything they can to capture suburban users, rather than sticking with the same old crowd who live along the river (branch lines excluded). Most of the city now live further and further from the centre (yay for car-oriented suburban spread... :'(

) and it's good for the rail business, good for the environment and good for social wellbeing to get them out of cars where possible!

507020 said:
I note there is also a new station opening shortly which will be known only as Pineapple Road.

DEVVO'D........... What's wrong with Hazelwell?!?!

Bevan Price · 22 Feb 2024

507020 said:
I couldn’t disagree more and I don’t accept the use of Ford as a station name. Ignoring the Ford station already open on the west coastway, it’s just unnecessarily vague, there is too much association with the Ford motor company and if geographical, does this mean that the track has water running over it? Obviously Giro is just ridiculous, but the station was originally known as Captain’s Lane and we need to stick with exclusively using street names to refer to suburban stations to give the lines some amount of local character and I am very glad that the intended Headbolt Lane was chosen as the name, since this is the lane which the station is located on, although I was amused when at Todmorden last week seeing Headbolt Lane as the destination.

I note there is also a new station opening shortly which will be known only as Pineapple Road.

Ford was the name of the old station on the Bootle - Aintree line

Georeferenced Maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

Although I find it difficult to understand why the name Ford was chosen; although it is shown in some old maps as within a (ward or parish ?) called Orrell & Ford, the actual settlement of Ford was about 1.5 miles from the station; more accurate names might have been Orrell(East) or Victoria Park (Although Orrell East might have caused confusion with the Orrell near Wigan. )

CaramellDansen · 23 Feb 2024

Bevan Price said:
Georeferenced Maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

I love this service!! "OS 1:1 million-1:2.5k, 1900s" is my favourite map set, you should try it! It has multiple zoom levels!

frodshamfella · 24 Feb 2024

Djgr said:
National Girobank did not just deal with government payments. It also offered bank accounts to the general public, particularly focused on those on low incomes who struggled to get accounts from the traditional providers. My first bank account was with them. Eventually flogged off with remnants within Santander.

Absolutely agree with you on the Headbolt Lane nonsense. Given the decades that have gone by, you would have thought someone would have had the nous to rethink this.

I think the moral of the story is that once the tracks have gone it is so much harder to make things happen.

Post link/loop, developments have primarily been a few new stations and a fair amount of electrification of existing lines. (I just spotted Overpool on the bigger map)

National Girobank were excellent, I had my first bank account with them as a teenager. It's a shame the government flogged them off.

Meerkat · 24 Feb 2024

Bletchleyite said:
Here's a wider version of the map (in a different format) of the 1970s proposals...View attachment 152912

The outer loop being two loops coming back via Edge Hill makes more sense than one big circuitous loop, but somewhat tricky to do now!
Is it a drawing error that New Brighton goes to Bidston and not Birkenhead/Liverpool?

CaramellDansen · 24 Feb 2024

Meerkat said:
but somewhat tricky to do now

That's the thing, isn't it? When they had the opportunity to do it, they were too busy ripping up railways and helping enrich the automotive industry. Now that sustainable transit is a requirement for continued human existence, they've sold all of the land the railways could have used to have horrible suburban developments spread like a cancer.
What else do we expect when the rich are in charge of everything...?

Djgr · 24 Feb 2024

Meerkat said:
The outer loop being two loops coming back via Edge Hill makes more sense than one big circuitous loop, but somewhat tricky to do now!
Is it a drawing error that New Brighton goes to Bidston and not Birkenhead/Liverpool?

Even until the 1970s Sunday services from Wrexham used to go directly to New Brighton. And so it is artistic licence.

8A Rail · 24 Feb 2024

Djgr said:
National Girobank did not just deal with government payments. It also offered bank accounts to the general public, particularly focused on those on low incomes who struggled to get accounts from the traditional providers. My first bank account was with them. Eventually flogged off with remnants within Santander.

It was first named as National Giro (1968), then National Girobank, then Girobank, Afterwards it was sold to Alliance and Leicester plc, who eventually got taken over by Santander. In the first few years of its existence, it was mainly used for the convenience of public payments (on behalf of Government) with also providing very simple bank accounts for people working in the Post Office and other similar organisations. Also provided facilities for major organisations to allow people to pay their bills at the likes of Post Offices etc. Later on especially from 1980's, it became a fully fledged bank providing ALL the normal / everyday facilities for personal and business accounts, just like any of the major banks with far more branches than the Banks too (i.e. Post Office network - upto 21,000 locations) as well as Regional Offices around the UK. In the late 90's if I recall correctly, the Alliance and Leicester were interested in purchasing Girobank and the Government agreed to sell it to them. However in the background 'Santander' were always hovering around to buy it which eventually they did when they purchase A&L, not sure of the year but around 2009 I think. Santander remained at the main Bootle site until 2/3 years ago, then vacated the site with people working from home or in a small office off Dunnings Bridge Road with around 200 people still there. As its height of its employment, there was about 6000 people working for Giro especially in the mid 1970's, so you could understand why a station was considered. There you go, a brief history of the 'Giro'. (If interested I worked at Giro for nearly 33 years - 1974 to 2006).

Pigeon · 24 Feb 2024

8A Rail said:
Later on especially from 1980's, it became a fully fledged bank providing ALL the normal / everyday facilities for personal and business accounts, just like any of the major banks with far more branches than the Banks too (i.e. Post Office network - upto 21,000 locations) as well as Regional Offices around the UK.

Maybe they should have told people about this, then they might still be going, perhaps. Certainly I (along with many others on this thread, it seems) never thought it did anything apart from its name appearing on dole cheques. I used to wonder what it actually was to be doing nothing else but that one thing.

But this is way off topic now!

Djgr · 24 Feb 2024

Pigeon said:
Maybe they should have told people about this, then they might still be going, perhaps. Certainly I (along with many others on this thread, it seems) never thought it did anything apart from its name appearing on dole cheques. I used to wonder what it actually was to be doing nothing else but that one thing.

But this is way off topic now!

Maggie would have flogged it off regardless.

But a truly noble idea, especially given the lack of customer focus of the traditional banks and the economic chaos their games have caused over the last couple of decades.

Meerkat · 24 Feb 2024

CaramellDansen said:
That's the thing, isn't it? When they had the opportunity to do it, they were too busy ripping up railways and helping enrich the automotive industry. Now that sustainable transit is a requirement for continued human existence, they've sold all of the land the railways could have used to have horrible suburban developments spread like a cancer.
What else do we expect when the rich are in charge of everything...?

Not sure why you are blaming the rich. Unless you think the poorer people shouldnt have been allowed cars and suburban homes.

Mr. SW · 25 Feb 2024

I saw that Publication some years ago and have always been intrigued by the 'University' station and its serpentine connection. As far as I know, no specific plans were made for this, unless they did and said "Ugh!" and threw them away.
I had a peep on Google Maps to see how they would have achieved this so I put the University station at Grove Street on the Victoria Tunnel.
Two routes emerged with a bit of retro-crayonning.
The straight Pale Blue line is the Victoria Tunnel, Amber is the probable position of the University station. Line A: Pale Green (lower) is the line that joins up with the headings south of Central. Line B: Pale Turquoise (upper) is a more direct route to Central. Line A radius 250m. Line B radius 320m.

Line B radius 360m

Line A radius 250/260m. Dark and Light blue lines are the Northern Line. The apex of the curve at Pilgrim Street at the Institute for Performing Arts touches the Wapping Tunnel.

Central Station and environs. Note I've indicated possible station expansion. Line B starts at Newington.

Ignore the pins, that's just something else.

Now I've seen this, all I can say is - well - thank God they dropped it. It's truly horrible.

The excavation at Grove Street for the station would have been colossal and hugely expensive. Victoria Tunnel has a gradient of 1/57 and you would have probably been fiddling about with a 1/30 gradient to get the line under the Lime Street approach, and what the RC Cathedral authority would have said, I don't know, even though the tunnel would have been very deep. Built in the 70s, you may have just got away with a station on a gradient followed by a steeper incline, but nowadays I'm sure the ORR would be looking very hard at all this and asking difficult questions. At least Line B skirts the Cathedral precinct and the curves are easier, but it would almost certainly meant excavation at Central for extra platforms but the Grove Street problem remains.

I think those in authority may have been given good advice on this scheme and ditched it at the first available opportunity.

Google My Maps.

Lloyds siding · 25 Feb 2024

CaramellDansen said:
That's the thing, isn't it? When they had the opportunity to do it, they were too busy ripping up railways and helping enrich the automotive industry. Now that sustainable transit is a requirement for continued human existence, they've sold all of the land the railways could have used to have horrible suburban developments spread like a cancer.
What else do we expect when the rich are in charge of everything...?

Well, talking of 'ownership'. the land on which the National Girobank headquarters were built was the 'King George V memorial playing fields and allotments', payed for by public subscription (including my dad's pocket money). The land was flogged off to the Post Office, presumably by Bootle Corporation, to allow the HQ to be built. (Not as Wikipedia says, on the site of sidings of the North Mersey Branch Line.)
National Giro was launched in 1968 by Harold Wilson as 'the People's Bank' to offer low cost banking to people who could not afford normal banking (which charged fees for every cheque processed or other transaction carried out; the GiroBank did too, but at first the fees were low). The name was because it was modelled on the Dutch Giro system, which largely used Post Offices there. [In a giro system the Payer sends the giro processing centre instructions to pay the payee a sum of money, the giro centre then sends a giro cheque to the payee, who pay it into their bank and sums transferred. In 'traditional' banking the payer sends a cheque to the payee, who pays it into their bank, who send it to the cheque clearing house, who then send instructions to the first bank to pay the money into the payees account in the second bank. The giro system therefore skips steps, and should be cheaper, and lends itself to automation and computerisation. National Girobank was at the forefront of computerisation in UK banking.]
Current situation is that, despite Santander saying, as recently as 2021, that their Bootle office was to be demolished and replaced with a modern eco-campus type building they've changed their mind, closed the site, sold it and the building is being demolished.

Meerkat said:
The outer loop being two loops coming back via Edge Hill makes more sense than one big circuitous loop, but somewhat tricky to do now!
Is it a drawing error that New Brighton goes to Bidston and not Birkenhead/Liverpool?

It is an error in that the junction is a triangular one.

CaramellDansen · 25 Feb 2024

Meerkat said:
Unless you think the poorer people shouldnt have been allowed cars and suburban homes.

You're god damn right. Suburbia, car-centric city design and cars themselves are a drain on the working class, the taxpayer and the environment. Literally any other form of city design and societal focus would be better than suburbia and cars.
Let's not even mention that poor people can't even get a car or a home nowadays - which is the point. When a scam is too big to avoid, they call it "economics".

Mr. SW said:
Two routes emerged with a bit of retro-crayonning.
Ignore the pins, that's just something else.

Ah, a fellow Google MyMaps crayonista...!

Mr. SW said:
Note I've indicated possible station expansion.
it would almost certainly meant excavation at Central for extra platforms

Honestly, a Central expansion was due decades ago. It's a joke how overrun the Northern line platform is; if I were making the laws, it would be criminal not to.
Merseyrail are a mess. They seem to refuse to expand outside of minor line extensions with cheap quick fixes (batteries instead of OLE) and their existing infrastructure is barely adequate.
Hurray for privatisation, eh?

Merseyside Transport 1970s Liverpool Loop and After Plans

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