Merseyside Transport 1970s Liverpool Loop and After Plans

[8A Rail]

Maybe they should have told people about this, then they might still be going, perhaps. Certainly I (along with many others on this thread, it seems) never thought it did anything apart from its name appearing on dole cheques. I used to wonder what it actually was to be doing nothing else but that one thing.

But this is way off topic now!

Well the bank had around 2 million accounts and was completing with other major banks as you would expect. I think we were the biggest bank after Barclays, Midland, Lloyds, Nat West and TSB?

Maggie would have flogged it off regardless.

But a truly noble idea, especially given the lack of customer focus of the traditional banks and the economic chaos their games have caused over the last couple of decades.

Yes it was going to get sold regardless which happened in early 1990's.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Honestly, a Central expansion was due decades ago. It's a joke how overrun the Northern line platform is; if I were making the laws, it would be criminal not to.
Merseyrail are a mess. They seem to refuse to expand outside of minor line extensions with cheap quick fixes (batteries instead of OLE) and their existing infrastructure is barely adequate.
Hurray for privatisation, eh?

Well, ‘decades ago’ probably takes us back to the nationalised BR days. Given that the Merseyside PTE/Merseytravel in its various incarnations has always been a public body I am confused what this had to do with privatisation.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Well, ‘decades ago’ probably takes us back to the nationalised BR days. Given that the Merseyside PTE/Merseytravel in its various incarnations has always been a public body I am confused what this had to do with privatisation.

The same ideological and economic forces that uphold privatisation also uphold neoliberal planned decline and the ever-present class element of capitalist society.
However, some people (especially the censors) get upset when "political" terms are used and the actual causes of these issues are criticised.
Privatisation, neoliberalism, class; these are all expressions of the same issue, all with the same solution.

That is to say, I use "privatisation" as short hand to describe the ideological shift across the 20th century, especially in the 90's and onwards, that let to the massive decline of our railways.

 

[Djgr]

Well, ‘decades ago’ probably takes us back to the nationalised BR days. Given that the Merseyside PTE/Merseytravel in its various incarnations has always been a public body I am confused what this had to do with privatisation.

Seriously?!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Seriously?!

Totally seriously.

This thread is about (non/partial/inadequate) implementation of a vision from the early 1970s. It stretches credibility beyond breaking point to see how a short-term 'privatised' Merseyrail Electrics franchise, let in December 1996, was somehow responsible for failure to deliver it more completely or even pay for the re-building of Liverpool Central Low Level in particular.

The vision got off to a flying start under the Heath government with the legislation to construct the Loop and Link and the connection through to Garston along with electrification to Kirkby, with the requisite funding approvals. However, after that the wheels seemed to fall off for a while although subsequent extensions of electrified services to Hunts Cross, Hooton, Chester and Ellesmere Port occurred under Thatcher and Major.

 

[Djgr]

Totally seriously.

This thread is about (non/partial/inadequate) implementation of a vision from the early 1970s. It stretches credibility beyond breaking point to see how a short-term 'privatised' Merseyrail Electrics franchise, let in December 1996, was somehow responsible for failure to deliver it more completely or even pay for the re-building of Liverpool Central Low Level in particular.

The vision got off to a flying start under the Heath government with the legislation to construct the Loop and Link and the connection through to Garston along with electrification to Kirkby, with the requisite funding approvals. However, after that the wheels seemed to fall off for a while although subsequent extensions of electrified services to Hunts Cross, Hooton, Chester and Ellesmere Port occurred under Thatcher and Major.

I would refer you to the above post by CaramellDansen, which highlights the "big picture".

 

[Dr Hoo]

I would refer you to the above post by CaramellDansen, which highlights the "big picture".

Thank you. I can assure you that I have read (and re-read) the post by @CaramellDansen but I am afraid that his style of political rhetoric simply leaves me none the wiser. Specific things like locations, dates, project costs, reference to particular public bodies and organisations or to particular people can be very helpful - hence my often posting from this angle. However, I am still in the dark as to why 'Merseyside PTE' or successor bodies has never (apparently) made expansion of Liverpool Central Northern Line level a key priority. (I do, however, welcome the current installation of an additional lift and refurbishment of the toilets.)

 

[Djgr]

Thank you. I can assure you that I have read (and re-read) the post by @CaramellDansen but I am afraid that his style of political rhetoric simply leaves me none the wiser. Specific things like locations, dates, project costs, reference to particular public bodies and organisations or to particular people can be very helpful - hence my often posting from this angle. However, I am still in the dark as to why 'Merseyside PTE' or successor bodies has never (apparently) made expansion of Liverpool Central Northern Line level a key priority. (I do, however, welcome the current installation of an additional lift and refurbishment of the toilets.)

Well a quick googling will identify that they have but that this is an expensive and complex project.

In the real world funding for this depends on priorities at a national level and for a whole host of reasons (that are pretty obvious and could be summed up as "broken Britain") this is unlikely to be forthcoming at present.

 

[The exile]

Totally seriously.

This thread is about (non/partial/inadequate) implementation of a vision from the early 1970s. It stretches credibility beyond breaking point to see how a short-term 'privatised' Merseyrail Electrics franchise, let in December 1996, was somehow responsible for failure to deliver it more completely or even pay for the re-building of Liverpool Central Low Level in particular.

The vision got off to a flying start under the Heath government with the legislation to construct the Loop and Link and the connection through to Garston along with electrification to Kirkby, with the requisite funding approvals. However, after that the wheels seemed to fall off for a while although subsequent extensions of electrified services to Hunts Cross, Hooton, Chester and Ellesmere Port occurred under Thatcher and Major.

We also need to consider that the partial / non implementation of a vision for a transport network is hardly unique to Liverpool or indeed to the UK. Plenty of interesting examples - see Berlin, for example, where there have been “ghost” bits of underground stations waiting for their lines to be built for 50 years now.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Specific things like [...] reference to particular public bodies and organisations or to particular people can be very helpful - hence my often posting from this angle.

I don't mean to come across as aggressive or anything, but is this not you admitting a failing to see the proverbial forest for the proverbial trees?
I don't see how focusing on specific individuals', organisation's or laws' effects on our ability to provide transit for the working class will actually solve the existence of the systems that require, created and upholds these individuals, organisations and laws. Even if, by some miracle, we were able to dispose even one of these aforementioned social units, the system will simply replace them with another.
Removing Beeching from the situation that decimated our railways would not have removed the economic (capitalist) relations, inequalities and incentives that required Beeching's actions in the first place.

Also, I'm not a him. Don't make assumptions!

*uphold (there's always one mistake!! haha)

 

[Djgr]

We also need to consider that the partial / non implementation of a vision for a transport network is hardly unique to Liverpool or indeed to the UK. Plenty of interesting examples - see Berlin, for example, where there have been “ghost” bits of underground stations waiting for their lines to be built for 50 years now.

Also the world has moved on in unexpected ways and this has an impact in terms of the appropriateness of plans.

Fifty years ago people were being sent away to satellite towns such Runcorn and Skem. Now the emphasis is on new neighbourhoods within the city centre (e.g. Baltic Triangle)

Liverpool has moved from manufacturing and trade through unemployment blackspot to tourist hotspot. (Who would have thought that there would be something like 8 times the number of decent hotels in the city centre than 40 years ago? Compare to Stoke, for example). All the cruise ship visits now.

Also there has been huge growth at John Lennon Airport (remembering when there were about 6 planes a day!). All these people now needing to access the airport via the rail system.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't mean to come across as aggressive or anything, but is this not you admitting a failing to see the proverbial forest for the proverbial trees?
I don't see how focusing on specific individuals', organisation's or laws' effects on our ability to provide transit for the working class will actually solve the existence of the systems that require, created and upholds these individuals, organisations and laws. Even if, by some miracle, we were able to dispose even one of these aforementioned social units, the system will simply replace them with another.
Removing Beeching from the situation that decimated our railways would not have removed the economic (capitalist) relations, inequalities and incentives that required Beeching's actions in the first place.

Also, I'm not a him. Don't make assumptions!

*uphold (there's always one mistake!! haha)

Thank you for making your perspective and approach to considering the 1970 plans so clear.

Please accept my apologies for an unwarranted assumption.

 

[AndrewE]

Central Station and environs. Note I've indicated possible station expansion. Line B starts at Newington.
View attachment 153115
Ignore the pins, that's just something else.




Google My Maps.

Are you aware that the tunnelling has already been done for the start of a flying (burrowing?) junction just south of Central? It's around the area of the current turn-back siding.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Please accept my apologies for an unwarranted assumption.

No hard feelings!

 

[Mr. SW]

Are you aware that the tunnelling has already been done for the start of a flying (burrowing?) junction just south of Central? It's around the area of the current turn-back siding.

Very aware, thank you very much. Often spoken about elsewhere.

Look at this:

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-10-11/the-under-city-workers-bidding-to-keep-trains-running-in-a-victorian-tunnel

Scroll down and watch the video and you can see the unused 'Down' (West- to Northbound) tunnel under the main tunnel.
Now look at this:

Starting from 1:10:09, You will see the blank headwall for the 'Up' (South- to Eastbound) link on the left at about 1:11:00.

As for Central Station being expanded: this won't happen for a while (if at all).
The conditions for expansion are any or most of the following:
> Extension beyond Ormskirk, Headbolt Lane or Hunts Cross
> Extension via cut-and-cover tunnel to the Airport
> Connection to Edge Hill and beyond via Wapping Tunnel

As non-hard infrastructure solutions exist, such as capacity-enhancing advanced signalling systems, it would seem reasonable that people would be looking for cheaper alternatives like that before committing to hacking out lumps of sandstone. I had a go at seeing what would need to be done and I suspect that inserting an expanded station throat to the north will probably mean encroachment onto Ranelagh Street and into Church Street. This is not something anyone would take lightly.

A lighter look at Central:

New vision for Central Liverpool — Liverpolitan

As a youngster I’d often be dragged kicking and screaming into ‘town’ by my mother, first from Aigburth and later Speke on the 82 bus for a day of being trailed around central Liverpool.

www.liverpolitan.co.uk

Let's get Baltic station up and running first, which will take a certain amount of pressure of Central and maybe a more serious look at a station at Chadwick Street for Liverpool Waters/Vauxhall. That area's under serious developmental pressure (It was a dump when I first knew it!). Warehouses at Waterloo Dock are now apartments and there are serious moves being made on the Leeds Street and Pall Mall areas, although I've found at least one developer appears to have gone bust.

 

[CaramellDansen]

A lighter look at Central:

This is something Liverpool (especially Merseyrail) desperately needs: a vision, a plan.
No short-term stopgaps. No cheapest-bidder designs.
Build spaces around stations, and build stations around spaces.
Reserve land for future expansion and stop selling rail alignments to housing developers!
Stop building for now, and build for the future.
Don't build to accommodate your current passenger numbers, but build to expand it.
Get people out of cars. Cover more of Liverpool.
Run a Merseyrail service down the Mossley Hill/Ex-Speke line. GET TO THE BLOODY AIRPORT.

 

[TheSel]

Not sure whether this is the ideal place for this post (if not, mods please feel free to move), but the On-Line Liverpool Echo has an interesting feature today (5 March 2024) marking 150 years since the opening of the original Liverpool Central Station, complete with 20-odd pictures showing the station through the 20th century.

Extract:

"It's now been 150 years since Liverpool Central Station officially opened in the city.

Serving both the Wirral and Northern lines on the Merseyrail network, the city centre railway station opened in 1874 and has gone on to become the busiest station in Liverpool. Before the station was built, the area had been used as a large timber yard, but the site was identified by the Cheshire Lines Committee as the ideal location for a new terminus, the Liverpool ECHO recently reported.

The original Central Station high level terminal opened in 1874, but the station we know today was redeveloped and opened in 1977, replacing both high and low level terminal stations. As the station celebrates its 150th anniversary, we've revisited the archives to take a look back at these fascinating photographs of the site through the decades and its forgotten level.

[article continues ...]

Link to article here.