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Island Line Class 484 Reliability

W

Woods

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BigB said:
I guess the obvious question is what profile the TFW 230s have, and are they seeing a similar wear pattern on standard track?
Is anyone aware if these are also P8 or another profile?
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To answer this question, the TfW 230s, and the GWR 230, and the ex-WMT 230s, all have P8 wheel profiles. But none have suffered hollow wear to the extent found on the island.

RacsoMoquette said:
Just out of curiosity, could anybody relay information to what the former Vivarail employees are doing now? I seem to remember a handful went to work for Network Rail and some to GWR, but are the any at Ryde TMD overseeing maintenance of the 484s?
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None of the former Vivarail employees work for SWR, to my knowledge. But there is an excellent working relationship between the fleet engineers for the 484s, the TfW 230s, and the GWR 230, with lots of knowledge sharing still going on. And indeed sharing of spares - to a point! Ever since the collapse of Vivarail there has been a very supportive dynamic between the operators left holding the babies.
 
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kentrailman

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Local press now reporting the line is to revert to an hourly service from tomorrow, Thursday 29th Feb "Until further notice" using only one out of the five trains.Island echo. Island line to run hourly service. The article says this is to save the trains for the summer ! Presumably reading the above, this is to save the wheels for the summer ! Oh dear.

I have been riding them today, the last day of "full service" for a while it seems and they are largely carrying fresh air. Less than ten passengers per train on the trains I have been on between Ryde and shanklin in the middle of the day.
 
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Buzby

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Just had an enjoyable day on 003 and 004. I see there is a total shutdown for 4 days next week, it does seem a long time to be out of service (following a long period of er, bring out of service!). The services used were certaiBly not busy - and if it drops to hourly as a guard was explaining, it’ll only get worse.
 
RacsoMoquette

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I completely agree patronage is light, During all of my journeys on the Island Line In February 2024, it has only been me and two other family members plus between five to ten others. In all honesty maybe the hourly timetable implantation is a benefit due to it preserving the wheels by working the units less intensely. I doubt it will hinder ridership, seeing the figures makes an hourly service just a waste of time and money!
 
Chris125

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Buzby said:
Just had an enjoyable day on 003 and 004. I see there is a total shutdown for 4 days next week, it does seem a long time to be out of service (following a long period of er, bring out of service!). The services used were certaiBly not busy - and if it drops to hourly as a guard was explaining, it’ll only get worse.
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Looks like they are working on the bridge at Morton Common/Avenue Road north of Sandown, there'll be more closures for the bridges north of St Johns and Ryde Pier itself in the near future too. It's a shame more wasn't done during the upgrade.
 
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I have to say that the quarter to three arrival and departure at the Pier Head today were both quite busy.
 
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RedPostJunc

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RacsoMoquette said:
After a highly splendid recent trip to the Isle of Wight, utilizing the Island Line frequently I have became quite knowledgeable about the Class 484s. On my trip during between the 22nd and 25th February 2024. Meanwhile apart from them being extremely charming and well designed (At least for the passenger that is) I spoke to three different guards who were rather happy to have a detailed chat, Though they all had one straightforward answer, which was (These units are a nightmare) or (Let’s not get in to this conversation). The consensus is clear that reliability is woeful. During my visit the only units operating were 484003 and 484004. While the latter three were out of service due to failures of some variety. I am interested to understand if anyone may relay any information to what variety of failures the units are experiencing, seeing as the main bane of the 230s was the engines and insufficient cooling systems, which is not present on the 484s. on a more positive note I found the units to be quick of the mark and internal arrangements to be ideal. Unfortunately though ( As with the 230s) the doors are painfully slow to open and slam violently when closing. It can not do the bodyshells any good!
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The Isle of Wight County Press is reporting that the service is going to be reduced to one train per hour from tomorrow, because of the lack of serviceable units: https://www.countypress.co.uk/news/...il-service-cutting-service-train-maintenance/
 
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geoffk

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Perhaps the light rail option was the best one after all.......I rode the line in September and most of my photographs are of 003, although 004 and 005 were also out on different days. I assumed they would run double units during the peak holiday period, hence the need for five units.
 
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Carlisle

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geoffk said:
Perhaps the light rail option was the best one after all..
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Quite possibly but there always appears to be a multitude of reasons why such LRT schemes are virtually impossible to get off the ground, in the UK anyway.
 
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Gloster

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Although the article appears to be of a better quality than many such, except for the bogeys, I would point out that the writer was the partner of the former Conservative MP and is, I believe, still associated with the party.
 
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Invincible

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Gloster said:
Although the article appears to be of a better quality than many such, except for the bogeys, I would point out that the writer was the partner of the former Conservative MP and is, I believe, still associated with the party.
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Although not very complementary of Conservative transport policy.
Says the wheels are from "“a scrap metal merchant” after a senior official from the Department for Transport (DfT) told the railway company that “Minimising expenditure must be the focus" ".
But the wheels are actually a loan from GWR.
 
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wighty

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She's fallen out with the Conservatives since she parted from the MP - although they still seem to get on - they are sometimes seen together. The reference to scrap metal merchant is in quotes - I wonder where she got it.
 
43096

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Royston Vasey said:
Another Vivarail disaster. Best off cutting their losses and talking to TfL about the 1973 stock.
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I’d love to hear your explanation of how Vivarail are to blame for wheel wear brought on by the state of the track.
 
bramling

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Royston Vasey said:
Another Vivarail disaster. Best off cutting their losses and talking to TfL about the 1973 stock.
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Is this actually a Vivarail problem? Clearly the lack of parts may relate to their ceasing business (though shouldn’t this have been factored into the decision to go with Vivarail, and mitigations been considered?), however if there’s a wheel/rail interface problem then that’s more systems engineering.
 
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leslie

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wickham said:
Two points here: Someone has completely missed the point about GWR helping out SWR with the wheel wear problem - they are only loaning wheel sets (ie: Wheels and axles) NOT complete bogies or even carriages !!
The other point regarding getting long welded rails to the Isle of Wight - they are welded into long lengths on site. This applies to many works sites thoughout the country - long rails are often cut into the managable sizes and welded up into long lengths on site. Expansion joints are also made seperatly and welded into where they are required. It may sound daft to the leyman but this is regular practice.
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A report in yesterdays Isle of Wight Observer quotes a Freedom of information requst that they made on correspondence pertaining to the wheel wear problem. The FOI request brought forth a document which states the following; 'SWR noted that the wheel sets are the biggest issue faced for the Island line fleet however SWR have secured wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant which are being turned to use as spares.' Do you know whether the GWR - SWR wheelsets loan fell through?
 
WarrenTManager

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This article made me so angry. They are not from a scrapyard.
leslie said:
A report in yesterday’s Isle of Wight Observer quotes a Freedom of information requst that they made on correspondence pertaining to the wheel wear problem. The FOI request brought forth a document which states the following; 'SWR noted that the wheel sets are the biggest issue faced for the Island line fleet however SWR have secured wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant which are being turned to use as spares.' Do you know whether the GWR - SWR wheelsets loan fell through?
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Of course it didn’t. The wheels aren’t from a scrapyard. They are loaned from GWR to help turnover a change out of damaged wheels and get them overhauled.

They go on about automating trains so we don’t need drivers. I’d argue we could use AI and get better journalistic work produced as a higher priority.
 
Royston Vasey

Royston Vasey

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bramling said:
Is this actually a Vivarail problem? Clearly the lack of parts may relate to their ceasing business (though shouldn’t this have been factored into the decision to go with Vivarail, and mitigations been considered?), however if there’s a wheel/rail interface problem then that’s more systems engineering.
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I would be surprised if guards were describing them as "a nightmare" purely on the basis of wheels wearing down

RacsoMoquette said:
I was informed by a gaurd that the remainder of the fleet were out of service due to defects.
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Gloster

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Although my memory may be at fault as I didn‘t note the numbers, I think I travelled on both 002 and 005 this week. Supposedly they will be back to a two train service for three weeks starting tomorrow.
 
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leslie

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WarrenTManager said:
This article made me so angry. They are not from a scrapyard.

Of course it didn’t. The wheels aren’t from a scrapyard. They are loaned from GWR to help turnover a change out of damaged wheels and get them overhauled.

They go on about automating trains so we don’t need drivers. I’d argue we could use AI and get better journalistic work produced as a higher priority.
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I stated in the comments to the Observer article that the wheelsets were from GWR. The Observer replied and actually showed part of one of the documents released through the FOI request. If you look at the articles comments you will see the document and my responses. The document clearly states 'SWR noted that the wheel sets are the biggest issue faced for the Island line fleet however SWR have secured wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant which are being turned to use as spares.' Are you saying the Oserver have made this document up. Where is the evidence for the GWR loan. I am more than happy to go back to the Observer and tell them they are wrong. PS If they haven't made the document up that would suggest that SWR told the Dft that they got the wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant. The question then is why?

Below is part of the document that the Isle of Wight Observer claim they received as a result of their FOI request, written up apparently by the DfT. It clearly states 'scrap metal merchant'

FOI.jpg
 
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Chris125

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A strange article until I saw who wrote it. Safe to say she might not be totally objective...
 
Nym

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D365 said:
Would the wheelset situation be any different?
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Maybe would have been better to think about the wheel profiles rather than just do what everywhere else does…

Although vivarailing the units rather than direct from LU with some careful conversion work might have been better for so long as the 73TS is in service
 
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leslie said:
I stated in the comments to the Observer article that the wheelsets were from GWR. The Observer replied and actually showed part of one of the documents released through the FOI request. If you look at the articles comments you will see the document and my responses. The document clearly states 'SWR noted that the wheel sets are the biggest issue faced for the Island line fleet however SWR have secured wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant which are being turned to use as spares.' Are you saying the Oserver have made this document up. Where is the evidence for the GWR loan. I am more than happy to go back to the Observer and tell them they are wrong. PS If they haven't made the document up that would suggest that SWR told the Dft that they got the wheelsets from a scrap metal merchant. The question then is why?

Below is part of the document that the Isle of Wight Observer claim they received as a result of their FOI request, written up apparently by the DfT. It clearly states 'scrap metal merchant'

View attachment 154990
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Scratching my head.

It says
3 out of service,
2 of which are subject to brake testing,
leaves only 1 unit in service.
But there are five units so three must be in service.

So I would not read to much into that quoted piece.
 
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leslie

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Peter Sarf said:
Scratching my head.

It says
3 out of service,
2 of which are subject to brake testing,
leaves only 1 unit in service.
But there are five units so three must be in service.

So I would not read to much into that quoted piece.
Click to expand...

I think one of the points of the Observer piece is that the Dft note suggests one of the 484's has already been cannibalised. Thus if that thesis is accepted with 3 units out of service (2 on brake testing) that would leave just one unit in service. I can make no comment on that claim.

Just for information I follow a Facebook page dedicated to Island Line. Yesterday a current Island Line driver stated that in the last 5 weeks he had driven units 002,003,004,and 005. thus it would appear that at the moment 4 units are operational. with 001 presumably not.



 
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43096

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leslie said:
I think one of the points of the Observer piece is that the Dft note suggests one of the 484's has already been cannibalised. Thus if that thesis is accepted with 3 units out of service (2 on brake testing) that would leave just one unit in service. I can make no comment on that claim.

Just for information I follow a Facebook page dedicated to Island Line. Yesterday a current Island Line driver stated that in the last 5 weeks he had driven units 002,003,004,and 005. thus it would appear that at the moment 4 units are operational. with 001 presumably not.
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One set (001) has flood damage that requires repair.
 
Buzby

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Does anyone know why the current stock ticked all the boxes to be used as replacement stock on the Island Line? I didn’t pay much attention to the tendering process but I am aware that earlier LT stock provided service until the refurbishment. Having had a few journeys on the ‘new’ stock, I began to wonder if at a possible ‘bargain basement’ price this economy has come at the expense of reliability?

Surely also more appropriate traction with a wheel set that matched the existing platform heights and save on panels to raise the platforms of every station would have been the pragmatic approach, than have to shoe-horn a replacement train and build infrastructure around that?

Since services are again disrupted it is starting to gain the exasperation of the older stock in record time, a Shanklin resident told me she’s given up on the IL and now uses buses exclusively (due to their reliability and frequency). VivaRail’s demise kinda points to a ‘heritage’ solution that didn’t work, and I don’t think IoW residents need another one - and there won’t be any money to start again.
 
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