Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

sor said:

however there is the inefficiency of there not being a single unified IT system, instead individual trusts / GP groups can go and buy any of a number of approved systems (hmm that sounds VERY familiar doesn't it!)

basically, the government saw the success of gov.uk (which bucked the trend of endless layers of outsourcing in favour of more in house work and a holistic approach to user experience and software engineering) and ignored it

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You can argue either way: A unified in-house system might save duplication and the bureaucracy of outsourcing, but you lose the innovation that comes from multiple competing providers. When you have multiple systems out there being used, then different groups of developers can learn from what other companies are doing that works etc. And let's face, it, an appointments system isn't exactly rocket science: There must be dozens of functioning solutions already being used by different companies around the UK.

But the impression I have from my interactions with local hospitals and sugeries is that the NHS has managed to devise the worst of all worlds, with completely patient-unfriendly systems.

edwin_m said:

I think the problem here may be that a significant number of potential patients can't access online facilities, either due to not being techno-literate or maybe too ill to manage more than a phone call. Those people, whose need may be greatest, will be shut out if online bookers grab all the appointments.

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True. But if there is a decent an online system, then those people who who are happy to use it will do so - and I suspect these days that's most of the population. If - say - 30% of people making appointments still prefer to phone the surgery and talk to someone, that's still a big saving in staff time since someone only has to answer the phone for 30% of appointments instead of 100% of appointments.

DynamicSpirit said:

True. But if there is a decent an online system, then those people who who are happy to use it will do so - and I suspect these days that's most of the population. If - say - 30% of people making appointments still prefer to phone the surgery and talk to someone, that's still a big saving in staff time since someone only has to answer the phone for 30% of appointments instead of 100% of appointments.

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Where I am you have to call in on the dot of 0800, then listen to a lengthy (and largely irrelevant) recorded message before getting through to the human who can make your appointment, or more likely to the call queue. So it's not physically possible to get through until about 0802 and more to be quite a bit later. If there was an online system that opened at 0800 then all appointments would have gone by then. It would need some appointments to be held open for callers, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to judge that.

If I need an urgent appointment (that is to say that day) I have no problem with scrumming at 8am with everyone else to get one. It probably is the fairest way of doing it as it avoids the issues of those with problems accessing online booking platforms from nabbing all the appointments from those that need to call up. What gets me is that when I don't need an urgent appointment (which is most of the time) I cannot do this either online or by ringing the surgery an a quieter time of day. Most of the time when I need to speak to a doctor I would have no problem waiting a week or two (or even three!) as the issue will be something I want addressing but not something that I need addressing here and now. But for whatever reason that's not an option so the 8am scrum it is!

However are we not wandering a little off the topic? Anyone want to start a new thread for "my ideas to fix the NHS/GP Surgeries"?

ainsworth74 said:

However are we not wandering a little off the topic? Anyone want to start a new thread for "my ideas to fix the NHS/GP Surgeries"?

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I fear the subject is just too wide to make a single thread address both. 'Fix the NHS' has been covered so many times here and it usually breaks down into arguments between those who actually need the NHS to function and those who hardly need it at all (mostly younger and healthy members) thinking that fixing it would be 'wasting their tax contributions'!
It just becomes yet another discussion on why posters pay their tax, (often ignoring the absolute fact that we pay them because the law requires us to).

ainsworth74 said:

If I need an urgent appointment (that is to say that day) I have no problem with scrumming at 8am with everyone else to get one. It probably is the fairest way of doing it as it avoids the issues of those with problems accessing online booking platforms from nabbing all the appointments from those that need to call up. What gets me is that when I don't need an urgent appointment (which is most of the time) I cannot do this either online or by ringing the surgery an a quieter time of day. Most of the time when I need to speak to a doctor I would have no problem waiting a week or two (or even three!) as the issue will be something I want addressing but not something that I need addressing here and now. But for whatever reason that's not an option so the 8am scrum it is!

However are we not wandering a little off the topic? Anyone want to start a new thread for "my ideas to fix the NHS/GP Surgeries"?

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It's not really fair on people who work shifts, particularly evening ones, and it's absolutely terrible for any medical conditions which make it difficult to sleep. I have a friend who regularly needs to visit the doctor, but in order to be awake for the 8am calling window has to stay up all night the night before, which in itself plays absolute havoc with his health. I don't think it's viable to run a "system which works okay for most people and not at all for a few people" when the people most in need of help are often in the not-at-all camp.

Small boats crossing are now at the highest ever level. Poor Rishi can't seem to get anything right

DC1989 said:

Small boats crossing are now at the highest ever level. Poor Rishi can't seem to get anything right

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One thing he isn’t, is poor.

edwin_m said:

Where I am you have to call in on the dot of 0800, then listen to a lengthy (and largely irrelevant) recorded message before getting through to the human who can make your appointment, or more likely to the call queue. So it's not physically possible to get through until about 0802 and more to be quite a bit later. If there was an online system that opened at 0800 then all appointments would have gone by then. It would need some appointments to be held open for callers, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to judge that.

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The “0800 scrum” used to be the way with my GP, but last time I wanted an appointment they were pushing a web based app where you described symptoms (it seemed well designed as it took you through the steps), which they then triaged and booked appointments based on urgency. Big improvement on the old system to be fair, though not sure what they do for those not tech-literate.

Cowley said:

One thing he isn’t, is poor.

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It's all relative, but he doesn't like them mentioned.

When will the next election be?

Dunno. Either May, if not this Autumn coming.

By the way, something that nobody has yet mentioned, Chancellor’s Budget takes place tomorrow

Yeah that's what got me thinking. Are they going to scrap Income Tax and call the election the week after?

Scrap income tax?

Darandio said:

Scrap income tax?

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I bet it we had a referendum on that, it would pass. Definitely no down sides if it's the will of the people.

I think they would win if they introduced that. Not saying it's a good idea!

telstarbox said:

I think they would win if they introduced that. Not saying it's a good idea!

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Especially if they offered free cake too.

DynamicSpirit said:

You can argue either way: A unified in-house system might save duplication and the bureaucracy of outsourcing, but you lose the innovation that comes from multiple competing providers. When you have multiple systems out there being used, then different groups of developers can learn from what other companies are doing that works etc. And let's face, it, an appointments system isn't exactly rocket science: There must be dozens of functioning solutions already being used by different companies around the UK.

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How much innovation is there to be had in what is basically an appointment booking system? It's such a common and generic technology that I struggle to see what sorts of developments could lead to benefits that outweigh the costs of developing multiple systems, and the ongoinng training costs of training staff to use the systems when they move between placements. That's a very real cost to weigh against the abstract hope of some free market competition, when realistically the budget for improvements after initial application development is likely to be low.

Yew said:

How much innovation is there to be had in what is basically an appointment booking system?

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There are probably a near-infinite variety of different visual ways to present a calendar of available slots to the user, as well as the question of how you do it on a small phone screen. There are questions of how you order the appointments - chronological vs. preferentially showing the timeslots that past experience shows that particular customer is likely to prefer. There's also a difficult problem of how you deal with users simultaneously trying to book the same slot, but only one can actually take that slot - that requires very careful thought for how you design the messaging so you don't really annoy or confuse people. Then there are questions about making the app accessible to visually impaired people etc., but without completely losing non-accessible graphics etc. that actually make the app much easier to use for those who are not visually impaired. If you being really forward thinking, you could release an API that apps could connect to, so that anyone could develop an app that hooks into the NHS booking system, and users could choose the app/UI that they most liked.

So yes, I would say there is lots of scope for innovation in how you write a booking system. As a customer of lots of places that have booking systems, I've seen some really good ones and some really terrible ones. But if you don't allow competition, you have no way to gradually lose the terrible ones.

For another example, look at train booking/timetabling systems. Admittedly a more complex set of information to display, but think how making that data open so anyone can write an app that displays timetables has lead to a huge and rich ecosystem where different websites innovate to display data in different ways that suit different people.

A counter-example is the online self-assessment tax system, which is Government-controlled, monolithic and very obviously closed to innovation - as user I haven't seen any significant change in the front-end UI in years. And I'd argue that although the system is good in some ways (robust, never loses data you type in) in many other ways it's utterly awful. Hard to navigate, often presents questions in technical language that people might not understand, and worst of all - when you've completed your online assessment - it is incapable of doing the most basic and crucial thing: Telling you how much money you actually need to pay HMRC before the deadline. I'd bet if you let some private companies in to innovate and write alternative systems, they'd run rings around HMRC's website in basic usability.

DynamicSpirit said:

There are questions of how you order the appointments - chronological vs. preferentially showing the timeslots that past experience shows that particular customer is likely to prefer

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As an aside, that's an interesting example to me, and has parallels with stuff I've worked on in retail supply chain. Chronological is probably the often-called "minimum viable product", and could be delivered far more easily than your other example, which includes some "nice to have" features. Far too many businesses seem to get bogged down and end up doing nothing until they can do everything, often on the grounds of user-friendliness when of course delaying delivery of anything is the most customer unfriendly thing of all

Meanwhile, a minister has paid out damages after falsely claiming that an academic was a Hamas supporter.

Or, to be more accurate, the taxpayer has paid out.

Cabinet minister Michelle Donelan has paid an undisclosed sum and apologised to a professor after falsely suggesting she supported Hamas.
The science secretary made the claim about Prof Kate Sang, an academic at Heriot Watt University, in a letter posted on social media in October.
The sum paid was covered by taxpayers to prevent prolonged legal costs, the BBC has been told.
Prof Sang said Ms Donelan had attacked her to make a "cheap political point".

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Is there anything at all that constitutes a resignation matter for a Government minister these days?

DynamicSpirit said:

I'd bet if you let some private companies in to innovate and write alternative systems, they'd run rings around HMRC's website in basic usability.

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I bet they'd also run rings around the people who were contracting them to deliver the service, end up charging them far more to provide a system which is either no better or worse than what HMRC is already providing itself! I have absolutely no faith that Government departments are capable of outsourcing properly anymore. Everything seems to end up coming crashing down around people's ears these days. I suspect in part because most Government departments seem to have slowly and steadily been denuded of people with the skills and knowledge to let them actually oversee contracts of this nature and ensure value for money from the product that is eventually delivered.

It would seem like something that Government Digital Service (the people behind gov.uk) should be getting involved with really seeing as gov.uk is generally excellent rather than private companies. At least first of all anyway. That being said I do agree that HMRCs digital presence in general feels extremely clunky especially compared to other Government online services that have been handed over fully to gov.uk.

DynamicSpirit said:

A counter-example is the online self-assessment tax system, which is Government-controlled, monolithic and very obviously closed to innovation - as user I haven't seen any significant change in the front-end UI in years. And I'd argue that although the system is good in some ways (robust, never loses data you type in) in many other ways it's utterly awful. Hard to navigate, often presents questions in technical language that people might not understand, and worst of all - when you've completed your online assessment - it is incapable of doing the most basic and crucial thing: Telling you how much money you actually need to pay HMRC before the deadline. I'd bet if you let some private companies in to innovate and write alternative systems, they'd run rings around HMRC's website in basic usability.

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Again, interesting.

I'd argue that for something as important (to both HMG and users) as the online tax system, robustness is the single most important criterion and as you say they hit the nail squarely on the head.

The way questions are presented is really a minor thing from a technical perspective, as they'll just be text fields, so it should be easy enough to rewrite them into more simple language.

I have been told - but can't remember who by, so it may be hearsay - the reason you don't immediately get a balance owing / refund due is that there's some sort of validation carried out behind the scenes to spot outliers / potentially erroneous data

SteveM70 said:

Is there anything at all that constitutes a resignation matter for a Government minister these days?

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Ambition.

DynamicSpirit said:

A counter-example is the online self-assessment tax system, which is Government-controlled, monolithic and very obviously closed to innovation - as user I haven't seen any significant change in the front-end UI in years. And I'd argue that although the system is good in some ways (robust, never loses data you type in) in many other ways it's utterly awful. Hard to navigate, often presents questions in technical language that people might not understand, and worst of all - when you've completed your online assessment - it is incapable of doing the most basic and crucial thing: Telling you how much money you actually need to pay HMRC before the deadline. I'd bet if you let some private companies in to innovate and write alternative systems, they'd run rings around HMRC's website in basic usability.

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The online self-assessment system is probably about as easy as it can be made in the parameters of the information they are trying to collect, and the requirement not to provide advice. Arguably the rules around personal taxation are unduly complicated, but the self-assessment system isn't to blame for that. From talking to people in other countries where it is common for people to have to fill out a tax return, our system is jaw-dropping simple and low effort, and even more so considering that only a pretty small proportion of the population have to use it at all.

As I understand it anyway you are going to get your wish, since the plan under Making Tax Digital appears to be concentrating on providing a basic API so that people have to use a costly accountancy package to file instead of a relatively simple online form.

I complete an online self-assessment every year on 6 April, and it seems to work reasonably well. It probably takes me an hour to collect all the data and enter it.

SteveM70 said:

I'd argue that for something as important (to both HMG and users) as the online tax system, robustness is the single most important criterion and as you say they hit the nail squarely on the head.

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Agreed, I think they've focused on robustness to the detriment of user experience. I suspect the other thing is, to the extent that they think about user experience at all, they are thinking about professional accountants and people who use the system on a daily basis and therefore will become quite comfortable with all its quirks. But that's unhelpful to the vast majority who basically login once a year to complete their tax return - so infrequently that they will never really become used to the site, so they need something that is completely intuitive to non-professionals and 'newbies'.

SteveM70 said:

I have been told - but can't remember who by, so it may be hearsay - the reason you don't immediately get a balance owing / refund due is that there's some sort of validation carried out behind the scenes to spot outliers / potentially erroneous data

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I don't think it can be that - because the system does immediately tell you how much tax in principle you owe for the tax year you've just filled in - and if it was waiting to spot outliers/etc., it wouldn't be able to tell you even that.

The problem is that, in order to see how much you have to pay, you need to subtract anything that you've already paid (most obviously, tax on account from the previous July) and add on the next year's estimate of tax on account. That information should be immediately available to HMRC, but the page just won't do that calculation for you. There are separate pages on the HMRC site that will tell you your transaction history etc. but they aren't linked to from the self-assessment calculation page, so I always find I'm wasting 5 minutes scrabbling about trying to find those pages so I can work out how much I actually owe.

The other thing that seems to me incredibly badly designed is that, when you do find the page that shows your balance, if I don't owe HMRC money with a deadline of today then the website always tells me that I have nothing to pay. I could owe £10K with a deadline of tomorrow, but if I login today the site will still say, nothing to pay (I'm guessing, on the basis that there's nothing that legally has to be paid today). To my mind, that's totally misleading.

Quelle surprise - fuel duty frozen yet again in the Budget whilst rail users get bent over a table.

Sheer bare faced populism from the Tories

BAFRA77 said:

Quelle surprise - fuel duty frozen yet again in the Budget whilst rail users get bent over a table.

Sheer bare faced populism from the Tories

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They opened a Pandora's Box with that measure. The 5p cut did almost nothing to help motorists, or the government for that matter, but now if they have to put it up again they instantly hit motorists very hard. One advantage though of being booted out soon is this matter is now something Labour have to very trickily navigate.

Page 34 of the March 6th 2024 Budget Red Book says:

2.23 These plans will be developed over the coming months ahead of the next Spending Review. That Spending Review – which will come after the General Election – will put in place a robust and comprehensive strategy for improving public sector productivity, putting these improvements at the heart of departmental settlements.

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On Twitter, Pippa Crerar from the Guardian wrote:

Nugget for election watchers: budget red book states there will not be another spending review before next election

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