Sun Chariot
Established Member
Covent Garden site offers far more family-engaging things than that; at least, it certainly did so when I regularly visited it during my 12 years' London living.
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Class 503 disposal
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Why are you assuming an EMU museum could not do so?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Because - as you've rightly said - no EMU focused museum exists. Coventry site closed.
If such a proposition is so commercially compelling, I would expect at least one.
I'm no EMU expert but I cannot see why the average family will be engaged by it.
Where did I say an EMU museum would be profitable?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
And, in your EMU museum, how exactly will its Total Cost of Ownership will be met?
The best we could perhaps hope for might be something like an additional building attached to Shildon or the NRM housing an electric train display. I do think that’d be a worthy and interesting feature, alas I also think it’s very highly unlikely! In any case, you’d most likely be limited to mostly single driving cars with perhaps one or two AC and DC units maintained in a fit state for occasional mainline running; clearly you’re very unlikely to have any sort of electrification within any museum site.
You do appreciate that most museums (and indeed preserved railways) are not "profitable" in the conventional sense?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
I absolutely agree with your view on that
Indeed I do
and I appreciate that the UK general public are highly likely to give their hard-earned income to an engaging experience such as Duxford, Yeovilton and Beaulieu. Moreso than they are to sitting in or looking at a 304, a 305, a 308....
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Ashley Hill
Established Member
As I said upthread the 503 should have been considered important enough to have been fully preserved,however we now see umpteen numbers of pacers preserved which is what the current generation of enthusiasts remember. Will there be such support for a 777 in a couple of decades whils a 507 rots in a siding?
The problem is everyone agrees these things are nice to save and probably even important for telling the story of railways in their area.
Unfortunately for preservation of trains this counts for diddly squat.
Plenty of projects have tried to or do bump along asking for money now and then but it's not a recipe for success.
Either you need a lot of people willing to participate and lose a varying amount of money, or alternatively a few people with a lot of money, all organised in advance.
If the people behind the project don't have the money or a guaranteed safe haven whilst they raise it chances of success are slim.
I've put thousands into preservation - the thing is I know it's sunk money. The most recent project 20 of us put a 4 figure sum in, each, just as a start.
Unfortunately for preservation of trains this counts for diddly squat.
Plenty of projects have tried to or do bump along asking for money now and then but it's not a recipe for success.
Either you need a lot of people willing to participate and lose a varying amount of money, or alternatively a few people with a lot of money, all organised in advance.
If the people behind the project don't have the money or a guaranteed safe haven whilst they raise it chances of success are slim.
I've put thousands into preservation - the thing is I know it's sunk money. The most recent project 20 of us put a 4 figure sum in, each, just as a start.
There’s also the complete 2-HAP and class 306 units at Shildon; and the 4-SUB, 4-COR and LNWR DC driving motors.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Thanks for that. I couldn't remember whether SUB 4732 was National Collection.
Ditto the COR and LSWR driving motiors - I have photos of them both, about 35 years ago.
The 306 (I also photographed in the latter 1980s) I thought was privately preserved; I hadn't not realised it's in the N.C.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. 4732 isn't part of the National Collection, I was referring to the driving motor 8143, from an earlier generation 4-SUB, which is in the great hall at York.
Mountain Man
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I see a massive difference. The London transport museum has broad mass market appeal, and in part about the story of London in general social history. EMUs simply aren't equivalent
It also happens to be in heart of London in one of the busiest to tourist areas. You ain't building an EMU museum is anything like as good a location.
Look at a similar type of museum in London, in the sense you need large space for vehicles, the RAF museum. It's out in zone 3/4, and despite being one of the best museums in London, it still has to fight to get numbers through the door.
Because EMUs simply don't have mass market appeal. They are an element of a transport network.
A pacer is far simpler preservation. They are also far more iconic and have far wider national recognition
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Class15
On Moderation
Yes, but with so many pacers preserved, could 1 pacer of many be sacrificed to save a unique unit? I would say so.
Mountain Man
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So which Pacer saved was in a position where it was a choice? Which actual situation of the Pacers preserved was there, when the business and use case that merited the Pacer preservation also applied to an EMU unit?
I would suggest it simply isn't the case where there was a choice of a simple diesel pacer Vs an EMU.
Units are preserved for a reason and with a set of circumstances. You can't just swap in one unit Vs another
The key question to my mind is if the current 507 effort can get it safely under cover.
I guarantee you the general public is not visiting the LTM for social history.
This idea would seem to be incompatible with the large numbers of railway museum and heritage railways in the UK.
Any pacer that's got Merseyrail seating would be an excellent candidate for scrapping. That variety should all have been scrapped!
That said I have to agree with you, heritage railways will always go with something they can run/use. Sad but true.
The_Train
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Have any of the carriages actually left Cockshute yet?
Yes the centre car left on Friday I have been told.
The_Train
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Did it go to J Watson & Sons in Stafford do we know?
thedbdiboy
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What you're suggesting isn't like-for-like. A Pacer can be used on most heritage railways as a cheap unit to operate on quiet days or to ferry volunteers. For all practical purposes, any EMU is just an ornament, albeit one that needs a lot of time and expense if it isn't going to rot away. A small number of well cared for EMUs are likely to attract sufficient interest to create a sustainable exhibit but for that to happen most of the remainder have to go to scrap. There's certainly no prospect of 'one example of each class' ever being a long term viable option.
Which is why I continue suggesting trying to find a way to make them not ornaments...
43096
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That all depends on volunteers being interested in them sufficiently to devote time and money to do that. Not surprisingly, volunteers are going to want to spend their own time on things that are of interest to them. Demonstrably, EMU preservation isn't it. And the railways themselves aren't that interested either - there has been a gradual attrition of the slam-door EMUs that were preserved. Those EMUs are, relatively, more useful as they have buffers and screw coupler compatibility (if air braked) - things like the 315 or 507 are utterly useless in that regard.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Much as I'd genuinely love to see a maroon AM9 / blue AM3 operating upon the main line or a dedicated heritage railway, the sad reality is that the scale of investment, versus the RoI, just doesn’t add up.
Hence my earlier posts regarding viability of preservation,.in years to come.
Perhaps not in my lifetime, but maybe in generations hence, the average paying public won't care what they see or ride on.
"Preservation in 2080" might be EV vehicles sporting pseudo 20th century train bodies.
On the plus side, a 3D printed high fidelity 503 might appear.
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D6130
Established Member
Perhaps some of the EMU car bodies could be taken off their bogies and either sold or donated for various community uses - school or nursery school rooms, sports field changing rooms, tourist information kiosks, etc. - as has happened with many of the Pacer car bodies. then the costa of upkeep and maintenance would fall upon their new owners.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
I am 30 minutes from Selsey, West Sussex, where I still see LBSCR-era Pullman cars in use as permanent homes.
So... it's not impossible to conceive a similar idea with EMU bodies.
That I can’t confirm as I’ve not handled that element of the project.
Bit in bold - but why? What made the 503 special or unique ? It's similar to the Class 502 which seems to be in safe hands now, but has suffered similar threats to its future.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
I’d like to think that at least one of everything could have been preserved. Wishful thinking I know ,but if only someone had thought to buy one of the early diesels instead of yet another 8F. Instead we have multiples of several classes but none of others. Many DMUs look very similar but loads have preserved.