Failed Unit
Established Member
correct, the trains where coaches were dropped off on route did run back to London ESC, they got added to other services so the unit was more productive
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Great Northern Fleet - 379s
- Thread starter Mollman
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Pre 2018 the Cambridge peak stoppers went fast from Welwyn Garden City to Finsbury Park, though I think 1 also called at Hatfield.
The morning stoppers used to couple at Royston then changed later so they were 8 coaches with rear 4 out of use until Royston due to the 4 coach platforms at the village stations.
In the evening the rear unit of a couple of the Cambridge stoppers split off at Letchworth and returned ECs to Kings Cross to lengthen another service.
The 0720 Letchworth to Kings cross stopper skipped Knebworth and Welwyn North but also called at New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate. It was generally 2x313 but later 2x317 or if we were lucky 2x365. A bad day would be a single 313 turn up! Quite a number of us used this service as it was the only one in the morning peak that called at Potters Bar.
This was the FCC fleet from 2009, apart from the class 313s were 44 units not 45.
The number of SX diagrams were 38, 12, 10 and 41 respectively.
The class 387s were cascaded in and class 321/317 cascaded out in late 2016 and early 2017. Class 387s finished on "old" Thameslink in February 2017 almost coincidentally with the class 321s finishing on the GN. The class 317s finished on the GN in April 2017. The class 321/317 fleet and the class 387 fleet were never fully in traffic on the GN at the same time,
The Fen Line service switched overnight from class 365s to class 387s in May 2017. 8 car trains in the Fens and taking over ex GA paths north of Cambridge has subsequently increased the unit requirement, things that happened during/since covid.
The toilet retrofit provision is in the wheelchair vehicle (3rd). Any news on how the 100mph work for them is going?
I'd expect a bit more complex than a straight loss of 4-car units, e.g Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross are all 10-car Networker diagrams so I wouldn't be surprised if some 5-car 377s were sent across to SE and 2x3 car reallocated ot the 5 car metro diagrams.
Halish Railway
Established Member
Aren’t the 5 carriage 377s different enough from the first generation 375s/377s that a conversion course would be required for any staff that would work them?
Also the 5 carriage 377s were fairly specifically ordered to be provide an uplift over an 8 carriage formation whilst being able to split into two equally sized portions for portion workings to Caterham and Tattenham Corner.
scrapthe503
On Moderation
Last check there’s barely any 10 car on SE Metro or Tunbridge Wells is there? It’s now more a case of a few 6s on the Maidstone.
brad465
Established Member
10 car Networkers are plentiful. All Tunbridge Wells' extras are, and some of the metro lines have them all day in addition to 10 car 707/376s.
Agreed plenty of 10car 465+466 combinations at the moment
whoosh
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Sep 2008
- Messages
- 1,375
What 717s were ordered for, was for:
4tph Moorgate to Welwyn,
2tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North,
2tph Moorgate to Hertford North,
(and I think)
2tph Moorgate to Gordon Hill
That was the plan for off peak Monday to Saturday.
Currently it's 2tph to Stevenage and 2tph to Welwyn.
Whilst most trains are driven manually through the Core currently, the number of drivers trained on ETCS and ATO is steadily increasing.
717s have not got ATO.
I think this would put it in the "unlikely" pile.
717s are being tested to raise their maximum speed from 85mph to 100mph. You have seen a train on a test run.
They are looking at Letchworth to Kings Cross additional peak trains from December 2024. I suppose these could be run with 717s, especially if they do get cleared for 100mph. It's a short enough trip for lack of toilets not to be a big problem.
The last I heard, it was a reliable clean and sweep of the windscreen with washers and wipers at 100mph that was being fine-tuned. That was quite a long time ago though, so there must be other issues to iron out as well.
In relation to this thread's title and purpose, additional Peterborough to Kings Cross peak trains are planned from June this year, "but may be delayed pending the availability of proposed rolling stock"!
379s? It's not been confirmed, but it keeps us talking doesn't it?!
bramling
Veteran Member
I thought the extra Gordon Hill services were planned for the peaks? I could be misremembering though.
6 cars wouldn’t be ideal, though I guess they could run as a 12 providing they don’t stable at Letchworth. Perhaps this might be why they might be looking at Letchworth rather than Baldock?
I wish I’d laid a bet on these extra services being dubious from a rolling stock point of view. 31 out of 39 387s is quite feasible to resource two additional 8-car services, but not if units are going south of the river, as I believe is intended to happen with the GWR units?
The planned additional (or rather putting back more pre-covid) Southern services from December will need some more rolling stock so there will need to be a reasonably sized net increase at south of the river...
whoosh
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Sep 2008
- Messages
- 1,375
I got it slightly wrong.
Yes, you are right, it was:
2tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford,
4tph Moorgate to Hertford,
4tph Moorgate to Welwyn.
That was off peak, Monday to Saturdays. So there were Gordon Hill terminators planned for the peak.
Here's the original plans: https://www.pgweb.uk/images/2016/documents/2018_timetable_consultation.pdf
brad465
Established Member
Does this mean if Southern receive anything from this potential cascade that Southeastern don't receive anything, or if they do it's notably less in number than what Southern receive from GN? Apparently SE have been having 377/5 reliability issues as well which may complicate what happens with the latter operator's stock.
Soon there might be more as they begin the ETCS trials between Welwyn and Hitchin, given the 717s are already setup for this (on the NCL)?
I do think they should be aiming to either restore 4tph WGC to Moorgate all day, or at least 3tph, as the services can get very busy once they've arrived/departed New Barnet. Plus, 2tph may be putting people off travel as a 30 minute wait is far from a turn up and go frequency. Even 20 minutes wait is quite long, which is why 4tph could help stimulate growth again.
People at Oakleigh Park, New Southgate etc most likely avoid the train at off peak times, and certainly you can see that when Arsenal are at home, very few fans still use the trains as they once did. I assume they're going from Cockfosters instead. Weekend services are pretty abysmal in terms of frequency, and I'd sooner have 717s running longer distance more often to make more efficient use of the fleet than longer trains running half-hourly, and even hourly at times (and I don't just mean during engineering works).
Should some 717s end up destined for longer distance work all the time, I would also seriously consider fitting the disabled toilet to some of the fleet too. But then I'm not the DfT!
What have us poor souls in Ely done to the railway gods to deserve that? We've already had most of our Saturday terminators switched from 387s to 700s, I can't say I'd appreciate the same happening on weekdays too.
Why? They would still be able to get value out of the newer interiors and hardware mods whichever lines they're working on. Southern passengers will still be enjoying more modern trains with charging sockets and WiFi etc than before classes 313 and 455 were retired. Southeastern (or any other) operator would get value too.
In the open data, the 0635 departure from Peterborough is now showing (from Stevenage 0720). The 0734 departure (from Stevenage at 0822) is also showing under runs as required.
Last edited:
RacsoMoquette
Member
I personally think that the Great Northern suburban services out of Moorgate should pass to London Overground with the Class 717s also being transferred to the LO fleet, seeing as London Overground are contemplating operating suburban services out of London Bridge, I should not see why they do not contemplate the latter also?
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Agreed but then that should happen for all the inner suburban services
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 31,442
Apparently that’s not happening now, it’s just been posted in another thread.
The linked article here includes a link to a TfL briefing paper, which explains SN are reinstating more services in 2025.
London Overground class 378s at London Bridge this Sunday 25/02/2024, and Easter Sunday 31/03/2024
Mods please feel free to move if this has been posted in the wrong forum According to the Branch Line Society and confirmed on RTT, a London Overground class 378 is due to make a test run from Crystal Palace to London Bridge this Sunday 25/02/2024, arriving at 10:34 and departing at 10:54 This...
www.railforums.co.uk
scrapthe503
On Moderation
Hard disagree. LO works because it takes on routes that nobody else wants, and which are relatively self-contained. Even in the case of the Lea Valley and Chingford, those lines had their own driver depot at Chingford, and they only need a proportion of the old West Anglia train crew at Liverpool Street. The outers were done from Liverpool Street, Bishops Stortford and Cambridge - and work well.
Southern Metro just needs to be specified better, and TfL need to act as a "PTE" to demand better stock, services, stations and staffing. It works perfectly well outside of London. A lot of Southern metro trains are run by crew from places like Horsham or Redhill - well outside what you might expect. Southeastern is the same, with crew from as far afield as Dover (?) I believe having linked work on the stopping services between Orpington and Victoria or Gillingham and Faversham drivers working stuff from Dartford. This keeps their traction and route knowledge up, which is good for folk further out if there's disruption as they will divert; its also good for people in the metro area as a Faversham spare driver could reasonably be sped up the A2 in a taxi to work the first Dartford to Cannon Street via Greenwich or something daft if it avoids a cancellation.
Great Northern Metro's only favourable reason would be its a specific fleet, but even then, the train crew are usually not just on 717s. An alternative would be to brand it up as London Overground but make the contractor the wider TL/GN operator so that train crew and existing depot facilities are kept. But given what we've just said about 717s being potentially capable of working some services into/out of Kings Cross in future, that would mean LO branded trains with GN drivers on GN services. Doesn't really work.
Of what is left that isn't currently within LO, the only thing that seems plausible is Croydon to Watford via Shepherds Bush, and ever-so-slightly possibly the Chiltern Metro, using Aylesbury-based units and crew somewhat deliberately? But that has just as many negatives based on interworked diagrams and crew.
They could use 717's, or 387 101. I don't think we'll be seeing trials during normal operating hours for a while though, unless I have missed a major development.
It should happen when the residents of Stevenage, Hertford, Welwyn and Hatfield get the right to vote for the Mayor of London. Which is never. But that is a discussion for another thread.
Re your first two paras, firstly the scale of London "Metro" services are orders of magnitude higher than anywhere else in the country. Indeed probably significantly higher than those in the rest of the country combined. Secondly l would have to, given the level of complaints seen on here and wider social media, seriously question if a "franchising" model "works perfectly well outside London". Finally some people made very similar arguments with respect to London buses. Thankfully those views were ignored.
87015
Established Member
Chingford depot was set up for devolution, wasn’t self contained before - let alone you’d think such a GTR insider would know the Lea Valley is still GA - with full affected on a staff opt-in basis. They appear to have played a blinder in calling GTR’s bluff on London Bridge as well.
I have been subtly hinting in this thread for while including this page...
Obviously a bit too subtle.
Earlier in this thread it was stated that the introduction of Class 379s on GN services would start at cascade ending with the withdrawal of the Metro-Cammell built Networkers from South Eastern. Does this mean the 465/9s currently in service or the 465/2s currently stored at Ely, or are these already regarded as withdrawn ?
scrapthe503
On Moderation
Anything stored, will be joined by anything still in service. There will be no 465/2, 465/9 or 466 in use at the December timetable change.
