Failed Unit
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correct, the trains where coaches were dropped off on route did run back to London ESC, they got added to other services so the unit was more productive
Pre 2018 the Cambridge peak stoppers went fast from Welwyn Garden City to Finsbury Park, though I think 1 also called at Hatfield.I'm trying to think of the old timetable, pre-Covid and 700s?
Half-hourly Cambridge stopper, which I think split a unit off the back at Letchworth or Welwyn.
Half-hourly Royston fast, often 317s. Welwyn North, not Knebworth.
Half-hourly Kings Lynn.
Half-hourly Peterborough semi-fast with the Knebworth stop.
Half-hourly Peterborough flyer.
Half-hourly Welwyn, fast from Finsbury to New Southgate.
Which was resourced with a fleet comprising 12 317s, 13 321s, 40 365s and 29 387s, for a vehicle total of 376.
With 120 vehicles of 379, and a large amount of rolling stock coming from the 700 fleet, what more units do you actually need? In future, there would still be fleet capacity for some service restoration.
This was the FCC fleet from 2009, apart from the class 313s were 44 units not 45.From memory the GN fleet from early GTR days was
40x 365
13x 321
12x 317
45x 313
The class 387s were cascaded in and class 321/317 cascaded out in late 2016 and early 2017. Class 387s finished on "old" Thameslink in February 2017 almost coincidentally with the class 321s finishing on the GN. The class 317s finished on the GN in April 2017. The class 321/317 fleet and the class 387 fleet were never fully in traffic on the GN at the same time,The 29 x 387 replaced the 317 and 321 fleets.
The Fen Line service switched overnight from class 365s to class 387s in May 2017. 8 car trains in the Fens and taking over ex GA paths north of Cambridge has subsequently increased the unit requirement, things that happened during/since covid.2tph KX to Cambridge, with one extended to Kings Lynn.
The toilet retrofit provision is in the wheelchair vehicle (3rd). Any news on how the 100mph work for them is going?The issue with using 717s is the lack of toilets, even on a peak time limited stop Peterborough train
I'd expect a bit more complex than a straight loss of 4-car units, e.g Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross are all 10-car Networker diagrams so I wouldn't be surprised if some 5-car 377s were sent across to SE and 2x3 car reallocated ot the 5 car metro diagrams.So the gains and losses will be something like this? Assuming SN loose 40 377/1s.
GN
+ 120, - 156, Loss of 36, 9 units
+ 379/0 - 30 x 4 = 120
- 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
- 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
- 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
GTR
+ 156, - 160, Loss of 4, 1 unit
+ 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
+ 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
+ 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
- 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
SE
+ 160, - 158, Loss of 2 coaches
+ 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
- 465/9 - 25 x 4 = 100
- 466/0 - 29 x 2 = 58
Aren’t the 5 carriage 377s different enough from the first generation 375s/377s that a conversion course would be required for any staff that would work them?I'd expect a bit more complex than a straight loss of 4-car units, e.g Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross are all 10-car Networker diagrams so I wouldn't be surprised if some 5-car 377s were sent across to SE and 2x3 car reallocated ot the 5 car metro diagrams.
Last check there’s barely any 10 car on SE Metro or Tunbridge Wells is there? It’s now more a case of a few 6s on the Maidstone.The toilet retrofit provision is in the wheelchair vehicle (3rd). Any news on how the 100mph work for them is going?
I'd expect a bit more complex than a straight loss of 4-car units, e.g Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross are all 10-car Networker diagrams so I wouldn't be surprised if some 5-car 377s were sent across to SE and 2x3 car reallocated ot the 5 car metro diagrams.
10 car Networkers are plentiful. All Tunbridge Wells' extras are, and some of the metro lines have them all day in addition to 10 car 707/376s.Last check there’s barely any 10 car on SE Metro or Tunbridge Wells is there? It’s now more a case of a few 6s on the Maidstone.
Agreed plenty of 10car 465+466 combinations at the moment10 car Networkers are plentiful. All Tunbridge Wells' extras are, and some of the metro lines have them all day in addition to 10 car 707/376s.
The 717 utilisation borders on ridiculous. I forget the numbers, but a massive proportion of the fleet goes away between the peaks, in the evenings and at weekends. And a good number don’t even leave the depot each day at all.
They’d probably be more suitably deployed on peak Peterborough services as 12 cars compared to Letchworth or Cambridge though.
ISTR the fleet was sized for the full 2018 inners timetable, with the intention of some further peak extras appearing at some point.
Whilst most trains are driven manually through the Core currently, the number of drivers trained on ETCS and ATO is steadily increasing.Use them on Welwyn to Sevenoaks services if you have to - I doubt you need 8 coaches at high peak through the core on a Sevenoaks when the Orpington trains run as well. That's entirely speculative, but I remember 313s couldn't go beyond St Neots (?) with the tripcock equipment, nor I don't think north of Royston, so who knows.
717s are being tested to raise their maximum speed from 85mph to 100mph. You have seen a train on a test run.I commute on GN outer suburban regularly - it is desperately necessary. People being left behind is generally a good indication of more capacity being needed.
It is conceivable that that can be achieved without additional rolling stock - the number of 465 and 466 diagrams has been cut by roughly 20% in December 2023. Withdrawing the Met-Cam units would represent a 30% reduction in the networker fleet.
They are coming back in June.
I have seen some 717's running ECS towards Peterborough recently...
Agreed. Rather than the discourse being essentially “how much can we squeeze out of the rolling stock”, it should really be about restoring lost services, notably the Baldocks. Realistically sadly it seems to be the first of those though.
I think we are still one service down each peak. Also worth remembering all but one of the current services are 8-cars, and my belief is the services being reintroduced in June will be 8-cars as well. And I think it’s fair to speculate that I wouldn’t be laying money on it being 100% certain these two extra services will actually materialise, as it isn’t at all clear where the stock comes from.
The toilet retrofit provision is in the wheelchair vehicle (3rd). Any news on how the 100mph work for them is going?
What 717s were ordered for, was for:
4tph Moorgate to Welwyn,
2tph Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North,
2tph Moorgate to Hertford North,
(and I think)
2tph Moorgate to Gordon Hill
That was the plan for off peak Monday to Saturday.
They are looking at Letchworth to Kings Cross additional peak trains from December 2024. I suppose these could be run with 717s, especially if they do get cleared for 100mph. It's a short enough trip for lack of toilets not to be a big problem.
In relation to this thread's title and purpose, additional Peterborough to Kings Cross peak trains are planned from June this year, "but may be delayed pending the availability of proposed rolling stock"!
379s? It's not been confirmed, but it keeps us talking doesn't it?!
The planned additional (or rather putting back more pre-covid) Southern services from December will need some more rolling stock so there will need to be a reasonably sized net increase at south of the river...In relation to this thread's title and purpose, additional Peterborough to Kings Cross peak trains are planned from June this year, "but may be delayed pending the availability of proposed rolling stock"!
379s? It's not been confirmed, but it keeps us talking doesn't it?!
I thought the extra Gordon Hill services were planned for the peaks? I could be misremembering though.
Does this mean if Southern receive anything from this potential cascade that Southeastern don't receive anything, or if they do it's notably less in number than what Southern receive from GN? Apparently SE have been having 377/5 reliability issues as well which may complicate what happens with the latter operator's stock.The planned additional (or rather putting back more pre-covid) Southern services from December will need some more rolling stock so there will need to be a reasonably sized net increase at south of the river...
I have seen some 717's running ECS towards Peterborough recently...
You'd then only want to use about 6 of the remaining 8 car 700s, which would be the Ely fast / Cambridge slow diagrams bar one.
Why? They would still be able to get value out of the newer interiors and hardware mods whichever lines they're working on. Southern passengers will still be enjoying more modern trains with charging sockets and WiFi etc than before classes 313 and 455 were retired. Southeastern (or any other) operator would get value too.It seems a bit wasteful for Southern to refurbish some of the 377/1s only to send them off to Southeastern
In the open data, the 0635 departure from Peterborough is now showing (from Stevenage 0720). The 0734 departure (from Stevenage at 0822) is also showing under runs as required.That's good to hear. Hopefully these will call at Stevenage at 07:21 and 08:21 to complement the 06:51 and 07:51.
Agreed but then that should happen for all the inner suburban servicesI personally think that the Great Northern suburban services out of Moorgate should pass to London Overground with the Class 717s also being transferred to the LO fleet, seeing as London Overground are contemplating operating suburban services out of London Bridge, I should not see why they do not contemplate the latter also?
Apparently that’s not happening now, it’s just been posted in another thread.I personally think that the Great Northern suburban services out of Moorgate should pass to London Overground with the Class 717s also being transferred to the LO fleet, seeing as London Overground are contemplating operating suburban services out of London Bridge, I should not see why they do not contemplate the latter also?
Hard disagree. LO works because it takes on routes that nobody else wants, and which are relatively self-contained. Even in the case of the Lea Valley and Chingford, those lines had their own driver depot at Chingford, and they only need a proportion of the old West Anglia train crew at Liverpool Street. The outers were done from Liverpool Street, Bishops Stortford and Cambridge - and work well.I personally think that the Great Northern suburban services out of Moorgate should pass to London Overground with the Class 717s also being transferred to the LO fleet, seeing as London Overground are contemplating operating suburban services out of London Bridge, I should not see why they do not contemplate the latter also?
They could use 717's, or 387 101. I don't think we'll be seeing trials during normal operating hours for a while though, unless I have missed a major development.Soon there might be more as they begin the ETCS trials between Welwyn and Hitchin, given the 717s are already setup for this (on the NCL)?
It should happen when the residents of Stevenage, Hertford, Welwyn and Hatfield get the right to vote for the Mayor of London. Which is never. But that is a discussion for another thread.I personally think that the Great Northern suburban services out of Moorgate should pass to London Overground with the Class 717s also being transferred to the LO fleet, seeing as London Overground are contemplating operating suburban services out of London Bridge, I should not see why they do not contemplate the latter also?
Re your first two paras, firstly the scale of London "Metro" services are orders of magnitude higher than anywhere else in the country. Indeed probably significantly higher than those in the rest of the country combined. Secondly l would have to, given the level of complaints seen on here and wider social media, seriously question if a "franchising" model "works perfectly well outside London". Finally some people made very similar arguments with respect to London buses. Thankfully those views were ignored.Hard disagree. LO works because it takes on routes that nobody else wants, and which are relatively self-contained. Even in the case of the Lea Valley and Chingford, those lines had their own driver depot at Chingford, and they only need a proportion of the old West Anglia train crew at Liverpool Street. The outers were done from Liverpool Street, Bishops Stortford and Cambridge - and work well.
Southern Metro just needs to be specified better, and TfL need to act as a "PTE" to demand better stock, services, stations and staffing. It works perfectly well outside of London. A lot of Southern metro trains are run by crew from places like Horsham or Redhill - well outside what you might expect. Southeastern is the same, with crew from as far afield as Dover (?) I believe having linked work on the stopping services between Orpington and Victoria or Gillingham and Faversham drivers working stuff from Dartford. This keeps their traction and route knowledge up, which is good for folk further out if there's disruption as they will divert; its also good for people in the metro area as a Faversham spare driver could reasonably be sped up the A2 in a taxi to work the first Dartford to Cannon Street via Greenwich or something daft if it avoids a cancellation.
Great Northern Metro's only favourable reason would be its a specific fleet, but even then, the train crew are usually not just on 717s. An alternative would be to brand it up as London Overground but make the contractor the wider TL/GN operator so that train crew and existing depot facilities are kept. But given what we've just said about 717s being potentially capable of working some services into/out of Kings Cross in future, that would mean LO branded trains with GN drivers on GN services. Doesn't really work.
Of what is left that isn't currently within LO, the only thing that seems plausible is Croydon to Watford via Shepherds Bush, and ever-so-slightly possibly the Chiltern Metro, using Aylesbury-based units and crew somewhat deliberately? But that has just as many negatives based on interworked diagrams and crew.
Chingford depot was set up for devolution, wasn’t self contained before - let alone you’d think such a GTR insider would know the Lea Valley is still GA - with full affected on a staff opt-in basis. They appear to have played a blinder in calling GTR’s bluff on London Bridge as well.Hard disagree. LO works because it takes on routes that nobody else wants, and which are relatively self-contained. Even in the case of the Lea Valley and Chingford, those lines had their own driver depot at Chingford, and they only need a proportion of the old West Anglia train crew at Liverpool Street. The outers were done from Liverpool Street, Bishops Stortford and Cambridge - and work well.
Southern Metro just needs to be specified better, and TfL need to act as a "PTE" to demand better stock, services, stations and staffing. It works perfectly well outside of London. A lot of Southern metro trains are run by crew from places like Horsham or Redhill - well outside what you might expect. Southeastern is the same, with crew from as far afield as Dover (?) I believe having linked work on the stopping services between Orpington and Victoria or Gillingham and Faversham drivers working stuff from Dartford. This keeps their traction and route knowledge up, which is good for folk further out if there's disruption as they will divert; its also good for people in the metro area as a Faversham spare driver could reasonably be sped up the A2 in a taxi to work the first Dartford to Cannon Street via Greenwich or something daft if it avoids a cancellation.
Great Northern Metro's only favourable reason would be its a specific fleet, but even then, the train crew are usually not just on 717s. An alternative would be to brand it up as London Overground but make the contractor the wider TL/GN operator so that train crew and existing depot facilities are kept. But given what we've just said about 717s being potentially capable of working some services into/out of Kings Cross in future, that would mean LO branded trains with GN drivers on GN services. Doesn't really work.
Of what is left that isn't currently within LO, the only thing that seems plausible is Croydon to Watford via Shepherds Bush, and ever-so-slightly possibly the Chiltern Metro, using Aylesbury-based units and crew somewhat deliberately? But that has just as many negatives based on interworked diagrams and crew.
The planned additional (or rather putting back more pre-covid) Southern services from December will need some more rolling stock so there will need to be a reasonably sized net increase at south of the river...
I have been subtly hinting in this thread for while including this page...Apparently that’s not happening now, it’s just been posted in another thread.
The linked article here includes a link to a TfL briefing paper, which explains SN are reinstating more services in 2025.
London Overground class 378s at London Bridge this Sunday 25/02/2024, and Easter Sunday 31/03/2024
Mods please feel free to move if this has been posted in the wrong forum According to the Branch Line Society and confirmed on RTT, a London Overground class 378 is due to make a test run from Crystal Palace to London Bridge this Sunday 25/02/2024, arriving at 10:34 and departing at 10:54 This...www.railforums.co.uk
Anything stored, will be joined by anything still in service. There will be no 465/2, 465/9 or 466 in use at the December timetable change.Earlier in this thread it was stated that the introduction of Class 379s on GN services would start at cascade ending with the withdrawal of the Metro-Cammell built Networkers from South Eastern. Does this mean the 465/9s currently in service or the 465/2s currently stored at Ely, or are these already regarded as withdrawn ?
(I may have completely missed this being discussed)