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Worst examples of BR era "vandalism"?

WesternLancer

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I searched GNR Royal Saloon and yielded no suitable result. :) And, yes, I spend far too many hours absorbed in Steve's site. :D
I just tried that and got this extra image - not sure how images on twitter are catalogued really - but if the link works it's worth a look as it's a colour image from 1970 from the same vantage point but by this time showing the carriages in decay having been ravaged by weather I would think, and probably much glazing gone.


caption says as below tho no source for the grounding date of 1960 so that may be wrong

Great Northern Railway Royal Saloon Coach 2408 became Engineers Staff Coach 972002 in LNER days. Grounded at Gatehouse of Fleet station 1960. Pic'd 1/10/70.
 
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WesternLancer

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Thanks.. My search engine must hate railway coaches then! :D
Great photo - now that's a weathering project for modellers. ;)
I must be on a roll - found this with about 12 pics including interior with a service going on - plus some more colour with local people - some maybe copies from book mentioned perhaps (don't think images are credited) - towards bottom of the web page


Since 1947 people living in the vicinity of Gatehouse Station had been provided with a "church, village hall and social centre" in the form of an old disused 3rd class railway carriage that was sited close to the tracks at Dromore Station. By the mid-1960s this carriage had become derelict and was scrapped.
An application to British Rail resulted in the provision of a second, now disused, carriage. This carriage was not 3rd class, having been built in 1889 to be used by the Prince of Wales (later King Edward VII) to travel between London and Scotland via the West Coast route. After Queen Victoria died, the coach ceased to have a royal function, and it became an inspection vehicle used by BR senior staff (albeit after significant modifications).
BR re-organisations meant that by 1965 the carriage, which had been kept at Edinburgh's Waverley Station, was redundant and BR agreed to donate it to the people of Gatehouse.


That leads to a link to an interesting essay about the site - which details this was a replacement for a previous coach - with more pics inside and out as well as the installation, and lots of info in the essay - I can't see a date of the essay:


at the end it describes the fate of the carriage as recalled by its owner, who admits to the reluctant 'vandalism':

The demise of the vehicle is described in a letter from Christopher Letcher, via Bill Shannon of the Scottish Railway Preservation Society.

In the 1960s my wife and I hired a holiday caravan which was permanently parked at a farm about halfway between Gatehouse-of-Fleet and Gatehouse station. The station had been bought from BR by a Mr & Mrs Musson, and in the summer of 1968 we bought it from them. It was in a derelict state and we set about restoring it.

The ex-railway saloon had been damaged by Boy Scouts who, while camping in it, had lit a fire. It was becoming vandalised and I was afraid that the vandalism would extend to the station when it was unoccupied (we lived at Winchester at the time). Therefore although I was conscious that it would itself be an act of vandalism, in around 1972 I made an effort to buy the coach in order to demolish it.

The church accepted my offer although I now have no record of how much I paid - it was £5 or £10. My cousin and I took it apart and I sold some of it to a Mr Hinchcliffe, a builder and timber merchant of Creetown, and used the rest myself. Some of it was Jarrah wood which is now in the floor of the former waiting room of the station. The sawmill people grumbled because the Jarrah was so hard it ruined the saw blade.

In 1974 due to changes in my personal circumstances I sold the station to a Mr & Mrs Bergstrom, who were (and still are) personal friends, and who still live there. A section of the interior panelling from the coach is now in the Creetown Heritage Exhibition, as is the organ used for the services.
 
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gg1

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Although it is understandable that post-nationalisation, and in an era of perceived rail decline, BR had no need for two competing routes between Birmingham and Wolverhampton

Beeching disagreed, Snow Hill to Wolves LL was one of a small number of routes he advised should remain open which ended up closing anyway.
 

Sun Chariot

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A different slant: an act of British Railways "vandalism", was their experimental purple (closer to GER blue) and khaki-ish green. It did not suit the A4 or Jubilee; and I can't imagine it would have suited any loco.

I forgive them for the pre-Brunswick blue; it was a fine livery and suited the larger locos very well.
 

gg1

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A different slant: an act of British Railways "vandalism", was their experimental purple (closer to GER blue) and khaki-ish green. It did not suit the A4 or Jubilee; and I can't imagine it would have suited any loco.

I forgive them for the pre-Brunswick blue; it was a fine livery and suited the larger locos very well.
If you're thinking of the Hornby purple A4, there's a question mark around the accuracy of the shade of purple they've used, I've seen it suggested that the real livery may have been somewhat darker and more subdued than the garish shade Hornby have chosen..
 

Sun Chariot

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If you're thinking of the Hornby purple A4, there's a question mark around the accuracy of the shade of purple they've used, I've seen it suggested that the real livery may have been somewhat darker and more subdued than the garish shade Hornby have chosen..
Agree. My understanding is that the "purple" was closer to GER blue but British Railways' choice of lining - in my view - spoiled what is a fine base colour (albeit I have only seen photos of it on small locos; and although I saw 08833 in its "GER lined blue", I'm unsure how close a match it was.
 

Rescars

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I must be on a roll - found this with about 12 pics including interior with a service going on - plus some more colour with local people - some maybe copies from book mentioned perhaps (don't think images are credited) - towards bottom of the web page


Since 1947 people living in the vicinity of Gatehouse Station had been provided with a "church, village hall and social centre" in the form of an old disused 3rd class railway carriage that was sited close to the tracks at Dromore Station. By the mid-1960s this carriage had become derelict and was scrapped.
An application to British Rail resulted in the provision of a second, now disused, carriage. This carriage was not 3rd class, having been built in 1889 to be used by the Prince of Wales (later King Edward VII) to travel between London and Scotland via the West Coast route. After Queen Victoria died, the coach ceased to have a royal function, and it became an inspection vehicle used by BR senior staff (albeit after significant modifications).
BR re-organisations meant that by 1965 the carriage, which had been kept at Edinburgh's Waverley Station, was redundant and BR agreed to donate it to the people of Gatehouse.


That leads to a link to an interesting essay about the site - which details this was a replacement for a previous coach - with more pics inside and out as well as the installation, and lots of info in the essay - I can't see a date of the essay:


at the end it describes the fate of the carriage as recalled by its owner, who admits to the reluctant 'vandalism':

The demise of the vehicle is described in a letter from Christopher Letcher, via Bill Shannon of the Scottish Railway Preservation Society.

In the 1960s my wife and I hired a holiday caravan which was permanently parked at a farm about halfway between Gatehouse-of-Fleet and Gatehouse station. The station had been bought from BR by a Mr & Mrs Musson, and in the summer of 1968 we bought it from them. It was in a derelict state and we set about restoring it.

The ex-railway saloon had been damaged by Boy Scouts who, while camping in it, had lit a fire. It was becoming vandalised and I was afraid that the vandalism would extend to the station when it was unoccupied (we lived at Winchester at the time). Therefore although I was conscious that it would itself be an act of vandalism, in around 1972 I made an effort to buy the coach in order to demolish it.

The church accepted my offer although I now have no record of how much I paid - it was £5 or £10. My cousin and I took it apart and I sold some of it to a Mr Hinchcliffe, a builder and timber merchant of Creetown, and used the rest myself. Some of it was Jarrah wood which is now in the floor of the former waiting room of the station. The sawmill people grumbled because the Jarrah was so hard it ruined the saw blade.

In 1974 due to changes in my personal circumstances I sold the station to a Mr & Mrs Bergstrom, who were (and still are) personal friends, and who still live there. A section of the interior panelling from the coach is now in the Creetown Heritage Exhibition, as is the organ used for the services.
Andrew Swan writes that the coach in question, no SC972002E, was originally built for the Prince of Wales. It was modified in 1901, became a directors' saloon for the LNER in 1923 and ended up as a district officers' inspection saloon in Scotland. It was apparently 61 feet long and weighed 32 tons.

As noted above it was a successor to an ex Caledonian third class coach which had served a similar function since 1939. Some of the photos show the end of this coach also, which was retained because it continued to provide service as the local telephone box!
 
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Mat17

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Agree. My understanding is that the "purple" was closer to GER blue but British Railways' choice of lining - in my view - spoiled what is a fine base colour (albeit I have only seen photos of it on small locos; and although I saw 08833 in its "GER lined blue", I'm unsure how close a match it was.
It looks okay to my eyes, but then I like purple and blue colours.

Funny how I have never liked Brunswick Green, so drab. LNER apple green was nice though.
 

yorksrob

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It’s a fair point that a lot of BR closures didn’t exist in a vacuum. When Birmingham City Council had pulled down most of the outer city centre to build the Queensway, and had made it abundantly clear they were all for building a city centred on cars, you can see why BR would follow suit.

Indeed. A supportive PTE might have tipped the balance.
 

yorksrob

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Moor street had enough capacity to serve the GWR lines serving the suburbs to South of Birmingham.

Apart from the service to Wolverhampton low level, the remaining GWR services could be dealt with at New Street. So from 1967 Show Hill was,reduced to one service to low level.

Even the Paddington services could be served from New Street. Anyway we are off on a tangent as the thread is about "vandalism"

That's basically a lot of tenuous justifications to close a route that would be back a few years later
 

Scouseinmanc

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Just to keep on topic
Thought of another & another local(ish) one, Birkenhead Woodside. Demolished in October ‘68, despite being the only listed terminus in Merseyside.
Sadly, the wind up of services to Paddington, Wales & the West Country 18 months earlier was the start of Birkenhead’s long decline.
 

John Luxton

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Fort William has been mentioned, and for me it was not only the architectural issue, but the moving of the station much further out of the centre of town that stung.
Shortening of lines appeared to happen in a few places, making passengers walk further is a great disincentive to getting them to use the railway rather than the car.

Also rationalisation of freight could have made for improved passenger only facilities.

Two Western Region lines which I think got it wrong were Looe and St Ives.

Whilst Looe station remains where it always was (and a good 5 minute walk into town) the area between the station and bridge used to be the freight yard. The line could have been extended to the bridge and the edge of the Town Centre. As it would have just been single track much of the freight yard which was subsequently built on could still have been built on.

Similarly the way St Ives was remodelled. I first travelled on the St Ives line as a youngster. It was shortly after the running track had been cut back to the old station building. Cars were being allowed to park on the track bed between the station building and the original buffers much closer to the town. With a bit of the track could have been slewed closer to the sea taking up the space of the run round but the line could have continued to run up to the townward end of the original platform. This would have still freed up space for car parking but passengers would have been that bit nearer the town.

A more radical cut back was at Fleetwood where the original terminal was closed and Wyre Dock was rebuilt at a two platform terminus which only remained open for around a further four years.
 

Mag_seven

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This thread is about BR Era "Vandalism" i.e. actual decisions that BR made to close lines, demolish buildings or whatever. It would be good if we could stick to examples of these please. Thanks.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Far more troubling are the full demolitions - Bradford Exchange, Birmingham Snow Hill etc.

Snow Hill station Birmingham. Although a bit of a wind tunnel it was very impressive for it's lengthy platforms and canopy. The present station is equally windswept but under a multistorey car park....
With regards to Birmingham Snow Hill let's have another go at the surrounding context. (I lived and was brought up in Birmingham and around the Black Country in the 1950s to 1970s.)
Was that one not falling down by itself?
Yes it was. The former road - the very Snow Hill that the station was named after - disappeared as part of redevelopment and construction of the Inner Ring Road. Excavation of the St Chad's Underpass/Road Tunnel must have affected the water table and the north side of the station (where the former parcels office had been) started to subside. I remember walking along the side and seeing cracks opening up.
I've not seen any evidence that a bit of remedial work couldn't have stabilized it, particularly if it hadn't been let slide for several years.
The station wasn't demolished until well after the complete closure, after functioning as a car park for several years. There was no obvious way in which the two separate ranges of buildings could be re-used given that they were below what would be regarded as 'street level' in Colmore Row. The central gap in the roof which had always been there had been allowing rain to fall onto what was basically the top of a wide viaduct throughout its life. The Edwardian structure of the station had been built with riveted girders (just like the Titanic) and was completely obsolete in structural engineering terms.
Given the situation of Birminghams railways at the time, the entire closure could be considered an act of vandalism.
Would this be the 'situation' that saw not one but two electrified routes between Birmingham and Wolverhampton with 4-aspect signalling (Stour Valley and Grand Junction)? Not to mention numerous well-equipped steel terminals, Dudley Freightliner, new Bescot computerised marshalling yard, Curzon Street Express Parcels Depot, etc.
Because it ripped the heart out of the whole former Western Region group of routes (a heart that had to be put back expensively not long after).
Would this be the network that had struggled since the Edwardian era against Britain's most extensive network of 3' 6"-gauge electric tramways that duplicated the entire set-up apart from Smethwick to Old Hill (and that bit never closed but actually got faster and better integrated services to New Street). The original GW Oldbury branch had closed to passengers in 1915: other bits struggled on with irregular services by rail motors or single diesel railcars. Even the 1954 timetable drew attention to 'frequent Midland Red bus services' in the district. The GW's attempt to introduce a passenger service on the new Oxley-Tettenhall-Stourbridge line was given up after only seven years in 1932 (admittedly not a direct Snow Hill service).
To be fair, a lot of the Snow Hill debacle had to do with the PTE's obsession with buses. Would Snow Hill closure have been pursued had there not have also been plans to shut the direct line to Stratford as well for example.

I suspect that BR might have put the cart before the horse and closed Snow Hill in expectation of more closures of local services than materialised.
At the end it was entirely down the PTE. The 1968 Transport Act squarely put responsibility for local suburban rail services in their areas in their hands. BR would get no subsidy other than via the PTE. They were offered the Snow Hill-Wolverhampton Low Level line (and limited link to Langley Green) and explicitly refused to take it on. Their first unifying act to bring together Birmingham, West Bromwich and Wolverhampton Corporation bus services was the new Route 79, precisely paralleling the Snow Hill line. (Just so that Walsall Corporation didn't feel missed out they summarily withdrew the trolleybuses, introduced a new express Birmingham-Walsall bus service via the Aston Expressway and M6 and planned to scrap the newly-electrified Birmingham-Walsall EMU service. The wouldn't even have signs between Walsall Bus Station and the railway station 'because it's going to close anyway'.)
Indeed. A supportive PTE might have tipped the balance.
A masterly understatement!

It should perhaps also be mentioned that the 1968 Transport Act also introduced 'Surplus Track Capacity Grants'. This was time-limited investment cash that had to be spent on rationalising lines.

There may well have been vandalism 'in the BR era' but it is far from clear that BR/Beeching/Marples/whoever were the real vandals.
 
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edwin_m

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Equally there were lines in the Beeching era where a bit more "vandalism", getting rid of expensive redundant assets, might have allowed them to survive by reducing costs. Gerry Fiennes's work springs to mind.
 
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Equally there were lines in the Beeching era where a bit more "vandalism", getting rid of expensive redundant assets, might have allowed them to survive by reducing costs. Gerry Fiennes's work springs to mind.
Like singling Salisbury to Exeter - it has been disaster ever since? And reducing stations to the barest minimum (including closing Yeovil Jcn, until he was abused of the notion)?
 

eldomtom2

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Like singling Salisbury to Exeter - it has been disaster ever since? And reducing stations to the barest minimum (including closing Yeovil Jcn, until he was abused of the notion)?
Considering that Beeching didn't see much of a future for Salisbury-Exeter at all...
 

yorksrob

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With regards to Birmingham Snow Hill let's have another go at the surrounding context. (I lived and was brought up in Birmingham and around the Black Country in the 1950s to 1970s.)

Yes it was. The former road - the very Snow Hill that the station was named after - disappeared as part of redevelopment and construction of the Inner Ring Road. Excavation of the St Chad's Underpass/Road Tunnel must have affected the water table and the north side of the station (where the former parcels office had been) started to subside. I remember walking along the side and seeing cracks opening up.

Well, I suppose there was a lot of dodgy concrete work undertaken in the 60's & 70's. I daresay if the area had continued to be permanent way, BR would have had to have paid more attention to it.

The station wasn't demolished until well after the complete closure, after functioning as a car park for several years. There was no obvious way in which the two separate ranges of buildings could be re-used given that they were below what would be regarded as 'street level' in Colmore Row. The central gap in the roof which had always been there had been allowing rain to fall onto what was basically the top of a wide viaduct throughout its life. The Edwardian structure of the station had been built with riveted girders (just like the Titanic) and was completely obsolete in structural engineering

I think the point is that the station should never have been closed in the first place. The gap in the roof was a design feature and I find it hard to believe that the Great Western at the time wouldn't have accounted for rain through that hole.

As for being a rivetted structure, yes the Titanic was riveted but so was the Eiffel Tower. That seems to be doing ok.


Would this be the 'situation' that saw not one but two electrified routes between Birmingham ham and Wolverhampton with 4-aspect signalling (Stour Valley and Grand Junction)? Not to mention numerous well-equipped steel terminals, Dudley Freightliner, new Bescot computerised marshalling yard, Curzon Street Express Parcels Depot, etc.

Not sure what your point is here. Hastings had a magnificent electric route from Victoria in the 1960's. That would have been no excuse for closing the diesel route from Charing Cross.

Would this be the network that had struggled since the Edwardian era against Britain's most extensive network of 3' 6"-gauge electric tramways that duplicated the entire set-up apart from Smethwick to Old Hill (and that bit never closed but actually got faster and better integrated services to New Street). The original GW Oldbury branch had closed to passengers in 1915: other bits struggled on with irregular services by rail motors or single diesel railcars. Even the 1954 timetable drew attention to 'frequent Midland Red bus services' in the district. The GW's attempt to introduce a passenger service on the new Oxley-Tettenhall-Stourbridge line was given up after only seven years in 1932 (admittedly not a direct Snow Hill service).

Well the trams may have been an issue while they were there. However I think a more relevant example was the fact that they tried to close the main route to Stratford and were rejected. This points to the closure of the central section being fundamentally ill conceived.

At the end it was entirely down the PTE. The 1968 Transport Act squarely put responsibility for local suburban rail services in their areas in their hands. BR would get no subsidy other than via the PTE. They were offered the Snow Hill-Wolverhampton Low Level line (and limited link to Langley Green) and explicitly refused to take it on. Their first unifying act to bring together Birmingham, West Bromwich and Wolverhampton Corporation bus services was the new Route 79, precisely paralleling the Snow Hill line. (Just so that Walsall Corporation didn't feel missed out they summarily withdrew the trolleybuses, introduced a new express Birmingham-Walsall bus service via the Aston Expressway and M6 and planned to scrap the newly-electrified Birmingham-Walsall EMU service. The wouldn't even have signs between Walsall Bus Station and the railway station 'because it's going to close anyway'.)

A masterly understatement!

It should perhaps also be mentioned that the 1968 Transport Act also introduced 'Surplus Track Capacity Grants'. This was time-limited investment cash that had to be spent on rationalising lines.

There may well have been vandalism 'in the BR era' but it is far from clear that BR/Beeching/Marples/whoever were the real vandals.

This is true. I would say that the mistakes at Snow Hill were a combination bad ideology from the PTE, BR and Government.

They conspired to make dreadful decisions.
 

Dr Hoo

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I think the point is that the station should never have been closed in the first place. The gap in the roof was a design feature and I find it hard to believe that the Great Western at the time wouldn't have accounted for rain through that hole.
I am totally unclear about what (if any) services would have used the station had its 'magnificent' 12 long platforms (8 double-length along the two islands and four north-facing bays) been retained. The 'main line' services from Paddington to Birkenhead had been supplanted by completion of the WCML electrification in 1967 and transfer of links to New Street (and Wolverhampton High Level). The Stourbridge Line had been directly linked to New Street. The Leamington and North Warwickshire lines could be handled at Moor Street (and it would have been up to the PTE to have specified and subsidised continued operation from Snow Hill in that direction). The Wolverhampton Low Level line had been explicitly dumped and bustituted by the PTE (quite apart from the many industrial, social, economic and transport changes in the Black County that had 'hollowed out' traffic prospects). Parcels traffic had been concentrated at Curzon Street. Through freight traffic had gone to Bescot Yard, Dudley Freightliner and various specialist steel and general freight terminals, with closure of yards and depots like Small Heath and Hockley.
 

yorksrob

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I am totally unclear about what (if any) services would have used the station had its 'magnificent' 12 long platforms (8 double-length along the two islands and four north-facing bays) been retained. The 'main line' services from Paddington to Birkenhead had been supplanted by completion of the WCML electrification in 1967 and transfer of links to New Street (and Wolverhampton High Level). The Stourbridge Line had been directly linked to New Street. The Leamington and North Warwickshire lines could be handled at Moor Street (and it would have been up to the PTE to have specified and subsidised continued operation from Snow Hill in that direction). The Wolverhampton Low Level line had been explicitly dumped and bustituted by the PTE (quite apart from the many industrial, social, economic and transport changes in the Black County that had 'hollowed out' traffic prospects). Parcels traffic had been concentrated at Curzon Street. Through freight traffic had gone to Bescot Yard, Dudley Freightliner and various specialist steel and general freight terminals, with closure of yards and depots like Small Heath and Hockley.

You're basically describing the ill conceived drive to eliminate duplicate routes.

The great electrification scheme of the WCML relied on duplicate routes to carry passengers while lines were upgraded, so the even at the time the concept of eliminating duplicate routes was unsustainable nonsense.
 

Dr Hoo

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You're basically describing the ill conceived drive to eliminate duplicate routes.

The great electrification scheme of the WCML relied on duplicate routes to carry passengers while lines were upgraded, so the even at the time the concept of eliminating duplicate routes was unsustainable nonsense.
Well, in the West Midlands it was triplicate, of course.

But the Victorian era had left a legacy of multiple (competing) routes in many industrial areas in particular; from South Wales and the West Midlands, through the East Midlands, to Yorkshire, Lancashire and up to the Scottish Central Belt.

Transport had been nationalised in 1948 specifically to be more ‘efficient’ and ‘integrated’ across all land-based modes than the old privately-owned set up. Well - look what happened. Surprise, surprise.
 

yorksrob

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Well, in the West Midlands it was triplicate, of course.

But the Victorian era had left a legacy of multiple (competing) routes in many industrial areas in particular; from South Wales and the West Midlands, through the East Midlands, to Yorkshire, Lancashire and up to the Scottish Central Belt.

Transport had been nationalised in 1948 specifically to be more ‘efficient’ and ‘integrated’ across all land-based modes than the old privately-owned set up. Well - look what happened. Surprise, surprise.

Oh, I see it's become a nationalisation/privatisation debate now.

Has it slipped your mind that it was NSE that reopened Snow Hill ?

Bad policy is bad policy whoever manages the railway.
 

Dr Hoo

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Oh, I see it's become a nationalisation/privatisation debate now.

Has it slipped your mind that it was NSE that reopened Snow Hill ?

Bad policy is bad policy whoever manages the railway.
I think that you need to brush up. Snow Hill was re-opened (as a terminus from Moor Street) in 1987, specifically funded by the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (with a European Regional Development Fund contribution). Nothing to do with NSE. It was part of 'Provincial' then, for what it's worth, but it wasn't a BR decision.

The whole point is that if local transport bodies receive delegated powers over the rail network, they take the decisions and are free to change their minds. Obviously the original PTEs are gone now but we still see local politicians and bodies wanting to run things, convert to metro or tram-train or whatever; e.g. Manchester or Teesside.

And where did I mention 'privatisation'? (Assuming that you don't really mean the simple fact that the L&NWR, GWR and so on were private companies in the 19th Century.)

But we can agree that 'bad policy' has had various significant effects on Britain's (and Northern Ireland's) railways ever since 1945 at least.
 

yorksrob

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I think that you need to brush up. Snow Hill was re-opened (as a terminus from Moor Street) in 1987, specifically funded by the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (with a European Regional Development Fund contribution). Nothing to do with NSE. It was part of 'Provincial' then, for what it's worth, but it wasn't a BR decision.

The whole point is that if local transport bodies receive delegated powers over the rail network, they take the decisions and are free to change their minds. Obviously the original PTEs are gone now but we still see local politicians and bodies wanting to run things, convert to metro or tram-train or whatever; e.g. Manchester or Teesside.

And where did I mention 'privatisation'? (Assuming that you don't really mean the simple fact that the L&NWR, GWR and so on were private companies in the 19th Century.)

But we can agree that 'bad policy' has had various significant effects on Britain's (and Northern Ireland's) railways ever since 1945 at least.

You didn't mention Privatisation. You mentioned Nationalisation "surprise surprise" and the implication was clear.

I think we've concluded that WMPTE must have been out of its tiny mind at the time.
 

Dr Hoo

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You didn't mention Privatisation. You mentioned Nationalisation "surprise surprise" and the implication was clear.

I think we've concluded that WMPTE must have been out of its tiny mind at the time.
You are still somehow missing the point that if the statutory framework (whether the British Transport Commission under the 1947 act or the PTEs under the 1968 act) have a duty to pursue integration or efficiency it is likely that duplicate lines, services between two communities split across two different sets of terminals, the concentration of traffic over fewer routes to justify electrification and track rationalisation are likely to follow. Similarly, in a multi-modal context, linking together three discontinuous bus services to provide a through link from Bilston to Birmingham or Handsworth to Wolverhampton without having to change twice and pay three (summated) fares (quite apart from improving vehicle and crew utilisation) is likely to occur, even if the operators are publicly owned.
 

yorksrob

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You are still somehow missing the point that if the statutory framework (whether the British Transport Commission under the 1947 act or the PTEs under the 1968 act) have a duty to pursue integration or efficiency it is likely that duplicate lines, services between two communities split across two different sets of terminals, the concentration of traffic over fewer routes to justify electrification and track rationalisation are likely to follow. Similarly, in a multi-modal context, linking together three discontinuous bus services to provide a through link from Bilston to Birmingham or Handsworth to Wolverhampton without having to change twice and pay three (summated) fares (quite apart from improving vehicle and crew utilisation) is likely to occur, even if the operators are publicly owned.

But history simply hasn't borne this out (as the reopening of Snow Hill has illustrated).

Ultimately the best solution to combine the two networks was the construction of interchange platforms at Moor street.
 

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