It can go via Selly Oak or via Camp Hill as timetabling requires. The first routeing requires a reversal because it enters New Street from the west. The second doesn't need a reversal because it enters New Street from the east.Why sometimes this service needs to change direction at Birmingham but sometimes not?
Presumably it can (if necessary) also go via Duddeston as well as via Soho - thus giving 4 permutations.It can go via Selly Oak or via Camp Hill as timetabling requires. The first routeing requires a reversal because it enters New Street from the west. The second doesn't need a reversal because it enters New Street from the east.
Most of them do it on a WTT basis.Over many past years I never recall any mainstream service from the Bristol line going via Camp Hill.
I would say most of the Bristol-Manchester trains I've been on were via Camp HillIs this like the approach to Victoria, which can go either via Herne Hill or via Catford, depending on what stopping train is ahead, and is determined by the minute on approach rather than sticking to the working timetable? Over many past years I never recall any mainstream service from the Bristol line going via Camp Hill.
I think a more important factor for Bristol-bound trains as accommodating the Hereford service.The original logic for the Cross-country timetable was for Trains from Bristol heading to Manchester went via Camp Hill, and Bristol trains heading to Leeds went via Selly Oak, so neither route had to reverse. But it doesn't seem to have kept to that, i guess.
This discussion has taken place quite a few times since the 2007 changes to the XC network that established the current standard pattern, and IIRC there has almost always been a difference between what the WTT shows and what actually happens on the day, especially in the northbound direction.The original logic for the Cross-country timetable was for Trains from Bristol heading to Manchester went via Camp Hill, and Bristol trains heading to Leeds went via Selly Oak, so neither route had to reverse. But it doesn't seem to have kept to that, i guess.
But going the other way they go via the Camp Hill line. The pathing of the Hereford to Birmingham service heading towards Birmingham is a bit different than going the other way as it is flighted immediately behind the Plymouth to Edinburgh services from Stoke Works Junction, so doesn't get in the way of the Bristol to Manchester services.Today we have all of them reversing at New Street:
Realtime Trains | Departures from Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024
Train information at Bristol Temple Meads all day on 23/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.www.realtimetrains.co.uk
IIRC back in the locomotive hauled days Cross City trains ran every 15 minutes compared to every 10 minutes as was the case up until the pandemic.Back in loco hauled days, services heading towards Manchester or Liverpool required a loco change, much easier to drop the new loco on the back than swap locos on the front at such a busy location. This was the main reason for routing them via Selly Oak.
Yes.I did see somewhere on here (ages ago) that northbound trains from Bristol towards BHM can accept whichever route is offered to them at Kings Norton, either Selly Oak or Camp Hill. Is this still the case?
Do you also happen to have recorded which were on Manchester services and which were on York etc services, to assess which routes used by each.Having aroused my curiousity, I looked up my recent haulage log entries. In recent years I've gone via Selly Oak 16 times and Camp Hill 14 times, so pretty much an even split.
Are they strictly diversionary routes if they can often run in either direction? Not only is route knowledge resilient, but also the western and eastern approaches to the station and access to platforms so as to allow either a reversal or not.While it's annoying in terms of booking seats and/or attempting to gauge direction of travel, it's so good that the diversionary routes available are so robust that Bristol-bound services could in theory leave from either direction at New Street.
IIRC back in the locomotive hauled days Cross City trains ran every 15 minutes compared to every 10 minutes as was the case up until the pandemic.
I don't have quick access to 70s timetables, but I think the answer is: when the Cross-City service came in, Cross-Country service had been operating on an interval basis through Birmingham which included xx15 towards Bristol and on the even hours xx20 towards Cardiff. The xx18/23 variation reflects that.I seem to remember this. Checking Table 55 of the 1982 timetable on Timetable World, it was every 15 minutes, mostly clockface at 03/18/33/48 but in even hours the xx18 was delayed to xx23.
I can't figure out why it's that pattern specifically from the XC departures on Table 51 though which are, during the middle-of-day period:
1019 ex-Newcastle
1024 Manchester-Cardiff via Lydney (other services listed went to Bristol or beyond)
1115 ex-Liverpool
1215 ex-Newcastle
1320 ex-Manchester
1415 ex-Aberdeen/Glasgow WCML
1435 ex-Edinburgh ECML
I think all ECML services were HST operated and the rest were conventional loco-hauled with a change at New Street.
So no obvious reason why the Cross-City services were xx23 in even hours. For example there is no clash for the theoretical 1218 or 1418, while the 1019 and 1024 would clash with both the theoretical 1018 and actual 1023.
But it certainly accords with my memories from the late 1970s that it was an "unusual" route to take, and worthy of note. More recently, it's much more common of course. Tomorrow's booked XC passenger workings (mainly services on the Bristol-Manchester workings) attached.MD306 - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET TO ASHCHURCH (EXCL.) (VIA DUNHAMPSTEAD)
KINGS NORTON To BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
Up direction CrossCountry services booked to run between Kings Norton and Birmingham New Street, either via Selly Oak or via Lifford East Junction and Bordesley Junction, may be diverted accordingly without warning. Drivers so routed need not observe the second sentence of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2.
Dated: 21/10/2017
By 1983-84 these were indeed 12:18 & 14:18; there was still a 10:23 because the 10p25 ex-Manchester-Cardiff (advertised 10:24) went via Camp Hill so no clash but there was a SO 10:19 departure (Leeds-Newquay) and the 10:23 ran Mon-Sat.So no obvious reason why the Cross-City services were xx23 in even hours. For example there is no clash for the theoretical 1218 or 1418, while the 1019 and 1024 would clash with both the theoretical 1018 and actual 1023.
Manchesters were mostly Camp Hill, except in the early morning when they went t'other way.Do you also happen to have recorded which were on Manchester services and which were on York etc services, to assess which routes used by each.