Issuing Fine Underhand Tactics

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

I wanted to put a post one to share my partners experience and stop it happening to other people.

He travelled by train to Leeds from Bramley yesterday. The ticket machine was broken would not accept any cards as payment and we couldn’t locate a conducter to buy a ticket.

When he got to Leeds he went to the ticket office inside the concourse to buy a ticket. He explained why he didn’t previously buy one and he was told they had to take his details but once they did he could then go online to buy a ticket with the printout they gave him.

At no point was he told he was been fined and they assured him he could buy a ticket online but the printout was a fine and he has been told a lot of lies and things that weren’t true. They took him off to one side to do this also.

It’s more of the tactics they used that I want to highlight if you have any vulnerable or elderly ppl.

I am no way endorsing travelling without a ticket but they said on his paperwork he had tried to go through the barriers which isn’t true either.

We have complained and hope appeal it but wanted people to be aware.

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo · 24 Mar 2024

Have you appealed using the process outlined on the notice? It is very important you appeal using the correct mechanism as only this actually constitutes an appeal and protects your partner from prosecution.

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

He has appealed to say there was no mechanism for him to buy a ticket. It’s more there tactics we are angry at

Mcr Warrior · 24 Mar 2024

Just one TVM at Bramley station in West Yorkshire?

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

Mcr Warrior · 24 Mar 2024

@lindsay_b. Do you / your partner have any proof that the one TVM at Bramley was non-operational yesterday? Photo maybe?

Watershed · 24 Mar 2024

@lindsay_b Welcome to the forum - although I imagine you'd rather not be joining us under the circumstances

The situation you describe at Leeds is something we have had many reports about. I agree it's a thoroughly distasteful method of operating, but it makes for "easy pickings" so it is probably not a huge surprise that Northern decide to operate in this manner.

Please let us know how your (first stage) appeal goes - if it's denied, we can assist you in drafting further appeals for the second and third (final) stages.

Mcr Warrior said:
@lindsay_b. Do you / your partner have any proof that the one TVM at Bramley was non-operational yesterday? Photo maybe?

In this context it's worth pointing out that under the Penalty Fares Regulations, the burden of proof in relation to any point of appeal or claim made by the passenger lies on the train company. In other words, it's for the train company to disprove the OP's claim that the ticket machine was broken.

Unfortunately whilst those are the rules, we have seen quite a few cases where the appeals bodies have not applied them correctly and have required proof from the passenger that should rightfully have been required from the train company.

Therefore any evidence that the OP can provide to prove their version of events would be likely to assist any appeal.

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

He didn’t take a picture he didn’t realise he had to he had two minutes to get the train he gets a train maybe once a year if that plus he’s not very tech savvy so doesn’t buy online

AlterEgo · 24 Mar 2024

In what way was the machine broken? Can you describe how he found the machine, and how exactly it “wouldn’t take cards”?

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

He put his card in and no option to enter pin and wouldn’t accept it contactless he tried both his cards boths

Bluejays · 24 Mar 2024

If the sequence of events is as described, then make sure a complaint is submitted aswell as following the appeal process.

70014IronDuke · 24 Mar 2024

Watershed said:
@lindsay_b Welcome to the forum - although I imagine you'd rather not be joining us under the circumstances

The situation you describe at Leeds is something we have had many reports about. I agree it's a thoroughly distasteful method of operating, but it makes for "easy pickings" so it is probably not a huge surprise that Northern decide to operate in this manner.

Well, it darned well ought to be a huge surprise!

Companies these days are forever stressing their ESG credentials. I'm sure a mere scan of the company's website will reveal boasts of its intentions of serving customers and making them satisfied with their journies, blah PR blah blah.

And if they don't live up to this, they should be named, shamed and if necessary punished and indeed ultimately prosecuted if, indeed, they have decided at the top level to deceive and hound 'customers' like this.

Titfield · 24 Mar 2024

lindsay_b said:
He didn’t take a picture he didn’t realise he had to he had two minutes to get the train he gets a train maybe once a year if that plus he’s not very tech savvy so doesn’t buy online

He did not have to take a photograph (there is no rule or regulation that says you should) but it is what is generally recommended (by savvy travellers) for any situation where having proof of equipment failure or delay could be crucial in avoiding some form of penalty or obtaining delay repay.

There is no compulsion to buy online but increasingly rail companies are, unfairly, seeming to suggest you should book online thereby not only reducing their responsibility to provide at station ticket vending or purchasing facilities but also enabling them to "blame" passengers as being at least part of the problem when there are occurrences such as this.

I take pictures of any faulty ticket vending machine (railway or car park) or delays shown on passenger information screens (railway or airline for example) to provide proof as required.

SteveM70 · 24 Mar 2024

lindsay_b said:
He didn’t take a picture he didn’t realise he had to he had two minutes to get the train he gets a train maybe once a year if that plus he’s not very tech savvy so doesn’t buy online

lindsay_b said:
He put his card in and no option to enter pin and wouldn’t accept it contactless he tried both his cards boths

If you're going to complain to Northern, and at face value you probably should, I'd be careful about what you say and how you phrase it.

Putting together these two statements from different replies, if Northern were told that information they'd probably think "hmmmm, that's a lot happening in two minutes, maybe he didn't complete the transaction before the train turned up and just got on"

Please be clear this is NOT what I think happened, and I take what you say at face value, I'm just trying to look at it as Northern might so you don't say anything that gives them any sort of comeback

Halwynd · 24 Mar 2024

lindsay_b said:
He put his card in and no option to enter pin and wouldn’t accept it contactless he tried both his cards boths

I've experienced exactly the same problem with Northern's ticket machines at both Gathurst and Appley Bridge.

In my case, knowing just how poorly the railway can treat its passengers these days, I decided not to travel... and this is exactly the reason why.

After a lengthy period, I was informed by a Northern manager that, at least at Gathurst, it was due to a faulty cable that connected the main machine to the card payment terminal. The machines are clearly not fit for purpose and I do wonder just how many passengers have found themselves in this position because of Northern's faulty equipment.

Hope this is helpful.

lindsay_b · 24 Mar 2024

SteveM70 said:
If you're going to complain to Northern, and at face value you probably should, I'd be careful about what you say and how you phrase it.

Putting together these two statements from different replies, if Northern were told that information they'd probably think "hmmmm, that's a lot happening in two minutes, maybe he didn't complete the transaction before the train turned up and just got on"

Please be clear this is NOT what I think happened, and I take what you say at face value, I'm just trying to look at it as Northern might so you don't say anything that gives them any sort of comeback

A train that we thought had been and gone had been delayed turned up like 8 minutes late we didn’t realise tbh we thought it was ours. The station we use have like 5 trains a hours so very frequent

SteveM70 · 24 Mar 2024

lindsay_b said:
A train that we thought had been and gone had been delayed turned up like 8 minutes late we didn’t realise tbh we thought it was ours. The station we use have like 5 trains a hours so very frequent

As I said, I’m not disbelieving anything you say, I’m playing devils advocate and looking it from the point of view of someone who wants to discredit you. If I was you, I wouldn’t tell them anything that gives them a chance of doing that

Mcr Warrior · 24 Mar 2024

Is it possible that an attempt was made to purchase an Advance single ticket from the Bramley TVM, but it was just too close to the train's scheduled departure time?

Issuing Fine Underhand Tactics

lindsay_b

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AlterEgo

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