Correct. A PF can't be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was purchased too late.
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Penalty fare issues
- Thread starter thw6
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RailUK Forums
I was in a rush so bought the ticket on the train and got distracted so didn’t complete it. As stated I get my travel reimbursed so I’ve not benefitted at all from non payment of travel.
Can I ask why would it be fraudulent?
glasgowniteowl
Member
It's called paying when challenged, basically people do it in the hope they won't have to pay at all, ie open or no barriers at other end, or that they can travel passed a few stations and buy a cheaper ticket closer to their destination when the inspector comes along
It's an offence to travel without a ticket where ticket buying facilities are available, going by what you have said, what you have done is actually an offence they could have taken you to court for, you would have lost if they did and ended up with a conviction, there might be a technicality that could get the penalty fare over turned but its hard to tell with the vagueness of the timing and sequnce of events
I have a history of doing that journey so the wouldn’t have looked odd
WesternLancer
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Thanks for your post clarifying.
glasgowniteowl
Member
Bit it does look like you didn't buy a ticket until challenged, had the ticket inspector started to speak to you before the ticket purchase was complete?
Is a ticket valid if it's purchased after the passenger has commenced travel?
glasgowniteowl
Member
It's not necessarily a clear cut No or Yes, there are circumstances which could affect it, but in this instance it doesn't really matter as the OP has not received a penalty fare for that, they have received one for no ticket at all as far as I can understand it
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Which is not what you stated originally:
A standard paper ticket could be used for that.
This is more and more looking like you bought the ticket when you saw the Inspector approaching, which does strike as being suspicious.
alex17595
Member
Just to clarify the times, I scanned the barcode on my ticket machine.
Ticket purchased at 07:42
Rejected Penalty fare 07:42:52
Seems like it was checked straight away.
Ticket purchased at 07:42
Rejected Penalty fare 07:42:52
Seems like it was checked straight away.
Last edited:
Brissle Girl
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Presumably, the first time is only available in minutes. So the purchase time could literally have been a few seconds before being scanned?
Yes. Fundamentally, the right fare has been paid. The train company received the correct amount of money due to it under the contract. (In the case of discounts there may be disputes over which fare is the right fare that's due but that's not an issue for this thread.)
The reasoning behind my earlier responses was roughly as follows. The Penalty Fares legislation is designed to tackle fare evasion. If anyone, when asked for a ticket, has the opportunity to buy one on their phone to satisfy the obligation to produce it, the regulations would be pointless! The only sensible interpretation must be that at the point in time when the request to show a ticket is made (the challenge), the passenger is already in possession of the ticket - even if it takes them some further time to present it.
I simply interpret the word "valid" in this context to mean "valid at the point in time the requirement to produce it is imposed on the passenger under this regulation" rather than the alternative interpretation that would undermine the purpose of the regulations of "valid at some later point in time of the passenger's choosing when they actually produce it". I further argue that saying as little as "Tickets, please!" to the carriage would normally be sufficient to invoke that obligation.
Legally you are required to be in possession of a ticket before you board a train, where ticket purchasing facilities exist at the station where you start your journey.
It is perfectly allowable to purchase a ticket on a smartphone app but you must complete the purchase before you board the train.
Purchasing a ticket after the train has departed will get flagged up which is why you were issued with a Penalty Fare. There might be a highly techinal reason why an appeal might succeed, as discussed above but this will involve a fair amount of work on your side.
It is perfectly allowable to purchase a ticket on a smartphone app but you must complete the purchase before you board the train.
Purchasing a ticket after the train has departed will get flagged up which is why you were issued with a Penalty Fare. There might be a highly techinal reason why an appeal might succeed, as discussed above but this will involve a fair amount of work on your side.
No he didn’t
I travel on SWR frequently and when boarding I often hear an announcement similar to "Welcome onboard SWR train to XXX calling at....I am currently in Coach 4 of this 10 coach train. I will be coming through each carriage to check tickets and passes. Please have your ticket ready for inspection....". I would interpret this announcement made by the guard to be a clear request by the guard invoking the obligation on the passenger to produce the ticket under the regulations as stated by @furlong . I do not think that there is any necessity to make a request of each passenger on an individual basis once that announcement has been made. The guard may repeat the request in abbreviated form "tickets please" in entering each individual carriage but it is clear that the obligation has been invoked.
Whilst the OP may feel hard done by, the reality is that he was in breach of the regulations. Perhaps if a passenger boarded a train and then proceeded to purchase a ticket immediately then a guard may show some discretion (for example if the guard came by 20 minutes later) but if the guard considered that the reason why a passenger bought the ticket on the train was because the passenger became aware that a guard was checking tickets then the guard may decide not to exercise that discretion for the reasons stated upthread (ie because the passenger appears to be paying when (or because they are) going to be asked to produce a ticket ie challenged).
RPI
Established Member
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I would suggest from that timescale that when the customer was asked for a ticket, they didn't have one, making the PF valid
I had the second appeal rejected!Is it worth doing the final appeal?
“I understand you are unhappy with the outcome of your appeal and would advise that where a case review is requested, the paperwork is passed to a different assessor and the appeal is judged again from the beginning.
In line with Regulations 5 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time, any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if required by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making. If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with Regulation 5.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the regulations.
Every passenger has equal rights and responsibilities when using the rail network. For example, everyone has the right to make the rail journey covered by the validity of their ticket/pass/smartcard, and a responsibility to adhere to the terms and conditions under which the product held was issued. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) set out those rights and responsibilities and advise that a valid ticket or other authority to travel must be produced for inspection when required.
The ticket enclosed with your appeal cannot be taken into consideration, as records show that it was purchased at 07:42, i.e. after you boarded the train.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision to the final and Independent Appeal Panel. If doing so, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, PO Box 1258, KING'S LYNN, PE30 9GJ., or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received.
Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency. The train company will also be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding”
My view is that the ticket was scanned before the penalty notice was issued and the notice reason said no ticket.
Can someone help me with wording for the final appeal please?
“I understand you are unhappy with the outcome of your appeal and would advise that where a case review is requested, the paperwork is passed to a different assessor and the appeal is judged again from the beginning.
In line with Regulations 5 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time, any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if required by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making. If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with Regulation 5.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the regulations.
Every passenger has equal rights and responsibilities when using the rail network. For example, everyone has the right to make the rail journey covered by the validity of their ticket/pass/smartcard, and a responsibility to adhere to the terms and conditions under which the product held was issued. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) set out those rights and responsibilities and advise that a valid ticket or other authority to travel must be produced for inspection when required.
The ticket enclosed with your appeal cannot be taken into consideration, as records show that it was purchased at 07:42, i.e. after you boarded the train.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision to the final and Independent Appeal Panel. If doing so, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, PO Box 1258, KING'S LYNN, PE30 9GJ., or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received.
Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency. The train company will also be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding”
My view is that the ticket was scanned before the penalty notice was issued and the notice reason said no ticket.
Can someone help me with wording for the final appeal please?
WesternLancer
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The view on here is that only at 3rd Appeal are these looked at by a different Appeal panel person(s) - so it is often recommended on here that people should go through to 3rd Appeal if they have a plausible case.
Hopefully some of the penalty fare experts can help with your wording of a 3rd stage Appeal.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Is is clear cut. A ticket purchased after boarding, for the correct journey, correct discount etc - is unequivocally valid. Nobody would suggest that if a guard has sold the OP a ticket instead, after boarding, and having passed an opportunity to pay, that the ticket the guard sold would be invalid. @furlong is correct in that this is a highly technical appeal relating to when the inspector first asked to see the OP's ticket, as the "request" part is important. It's a case of fine timings.