Correct. A PF can't be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was purchased too late.Incorrect. A Penalty Fare couldn't be issued but a prosecution could be commenced.
Correct. A PF can't be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was purchased too late.Incorrect. A Penalty Fare couldn't be issued but a prosecution could be commenced.
I was in a rush so bought the ticket on the train and got distracted so didn’t complete it. As stated I get my travel reimbursed so I’ve not benefitted at all from non payment of travel.Asking for the third time, why did you not purchase a ticket before getting on the train?
Can I ask why would it be fraudulent?It’s not at all petty, as accepting tickets bought immediately prior to a ticket inspection would open the floodgates to fraudulent travel.
Can I ask why would it be fraudulent?
I have a history of doing that journey so the wouldn’t have looked oddIt's called paying when challenged, basically people do it in the hope they won't have to pay at all, ie open or no barriers at other end, or that they can travel passed a few stations and buy a cheaper ticket closer to their destination when the inspector comes along
It's an offence to travel without a ticket where ticket buying facilities are available, going by what you have said, what you have done is actually an offence they could have taken you to court for, you would have lost if they did and ended up with a conviction, there might be a technicality that could get the penalty fare over turned but its hard to tell with the vagueness of the timing and sequnce of events
Thanks for your post clarifying.Incorrect. A Penalty Fare couldn't be issued but a prosecution could be commenced. What I would expect a sensible train company to do would be to record details and issue a warning letter both on the spot and by post, that if they were caught a second time they'd be prosecuted.
But for this thread, what's crucial is the relative timing of the FIRST request to see tickets and the COMPLETION of the ticket purchase. If the inspector made an announcement on entry to the carriage as they often do, buying the ticket after that is too late. (Or at least, the train company can make that as a plausible argument and I think an independent body would be VERY sympathetic to that sort of technicality. "Everyone in the carriage was asked at 07:41 to show a valid ticket. You did not possess one until later.")
I have a history of doing that journey so the wouldn’t have looked odd
Correct. A PF can't be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was purchased too late.
It's not necessarily a clear cut No or Yes, there are circumstances which could affect it, but in this instance it doesn't really matter as the OP has not received a penalty fare for that, they have received one for no ticket at all as far as I can understand itIs a ticket valid if it's purchased after the passenger has commenced travel?
Which is not what you stated originally:But I use the SWR app as its convenient for me
A standard paper ticket could be used for that.I buy my tickets on my phone because I can have travel paid for for work purposes
This is more and more looking like you bought the ticket when you saw the Inspector approaching, which does strike as being suspicious.I was asked for a ticket after I purchased I assume at 7.43 and the ticket was scanned by the machine. If I didn’t have the ticket then I would hold my hands up and say it’s my fault
Presumably, the first time is only available in minutes. So the purchase time could literally have been a few seconds before being scanned?Just to clarify the times, I scanned the barcode on my ticket machines.
Ticket purchased at 07:42
Rejected Penalty fare 07:42:52
Seems like it was checked straight away.
Yes. Fundamentally, the right fare has been paid. The train company received the correct amount of money due to it under the contract. (In the case of discounts there may be disputes over which fare is the right fare that's due but that's not an issue for this thread.)Is a ticket valid if it's purchased after the passenger has commenced travel?
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.
No he didn’tBit it does look like you didn't buy a ticket until challenged, had the ticket inspector started to speak to you before the ticket purchase was complete?
Bit it does look like you didn't buy a ticket until challenged, had the ticket inspector started to speak to you before the ticket purchase was complete?
I would suggest from that timescale that when the customer was asked for a ticket, they didn't have one, making the PF validJust to clarify the times, I scanned the barcode on my ticket machine.
Ticket purchased at 07:42
Rejected Penalty fare 07:42:52
Seems like it was checked straight away.
The view on here is that only at 3rd Appeal are these looked at by a different Appeal panel person(s) - so it is often recommended on here that people should go through to 3rd Appeal if they have a plausible case.I had the second appeal rejected!Is it worth doing the final appeal?
“I understand you are unhappy with the outcome of your appeal and would advise that where a case review is requested, the paperwork is passed to a different assessor and the appeal is judged again from the beginning.
In line with Regulations 5 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time, any person travelling by, present on or leaving a penalty fares train must, if required by an authorised collector, produce a valid ticket or other authority for the journey they have made or are making. If a person fails to produce a valid ticket or other authority in line with Regulation 5.1, the authorised collector may charge that person a penalty fare, in line with the regulations.
Every passenger has equal rights and responsibilities when using the rail network. For example, everyone has the right to make the rail journey covered by the validity of their ticket/pass/smartcard, and a responsibility to adhere to the terms and conditions under which the product held was issued. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) set out those rights and responsibilities and advise that a valid ticket or other authority to travel must be produced for inspection when required.
The ticket enclosed with your appeal cannot be taken into consideration, as records show that it was purchased at 07:42, i.e. after you boarded the train.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision to the final and Independent Appeal Panel. If doing so, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, PO Box 1258, KING'S LYNN, PE30 9GJ., or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received.
Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency. The train company will also be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding”
My view is that the ticket was scanned before the penalty notice was issued and the notice reason said no ticket.
Can someone help me with wording for the final appeal please?
Is is clear cut. A ticket purchased after boarding, for the correct journey, correct discount etc - is unequivocally valid. Nobody would suggest that if a guard has sold the OP a ticket instead, after boarding, and having passed an opportunity to pay, that the ticket the guard sold would be invalid. @furlong is correct in that this is a highly technical appeal relating to when the inspector first asked to see the OP's ticket, as the "request" part is important. It's a case of fine timings.It's not necessarily a clear cut No or Yes, there are circumstances which could affect it, but in this instance it doesn't really matter as the OP has not received a penalty fare for that, they have received one for no ticket at all as far as I can understand it