Buy-on-Board Query | Authorised Person Permission | Discounted Fare

hornbeampark · 7 Apr 2024

Hi All,

Second post on the forum and yet another revenue related post. I promise I have more to contribute than ticketing!

I am a regular traveller between stations on the Harrogate line owing to work, social and other commitments.

I arrived at Hornbeam Park station (my namesake) with 25 minutes or so before the departure time so as to have sufficient time to purchase my ticket from the TVM.

As I arrived a late running train pulled into the platform (the TVM is more or less on the platform - toward the rear of the train when it is at platform).

The guard then appeared from the rear cab to open the doors and I took the opportunity to call out 'may I buy on board from you' and she said 'as long as it's card no worries darling'.

If she had said no that would have been okay with me but I thought it was worth an ask as I'm meeting a friend at my destination station.

Within 30 seconds of departure she appeared from the internal cab door to sell me my ticket. I presented my valid railcard to the guard and she said, 'as you're buying on board we can't do any discounts sorry.' I paid the full, undiscounted, fare due as I am the last person to have an argument with railway staff doing their job.

I am a little bit miffed because if I knew that it would have been an undiscounted fare I would have waited the 25 minutes for the next departure.

What I would like to know is whether or not this is standard procedure? Northern Trains is the TOC.

NB - apologies if I got any of the jargon wrong!

RailUK Forums

methecooldude · 7 Apr 2024

hornbeampark said:
What I would like to know is whether or not this is standard procedure? Northern Trains is the TOC.

Yes, per NRCoT 9.2: (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf):

If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:

9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on

Also from the Railcard terms (https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/ - I've used the Network Railcard site, but this particular term is the same regardless of railcard type:

2.10 If you fail to comply with condition 2.7, 2.8 and/or 2.9, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey.

skyhigh · 7 Apr 2024

methecooldude said:
Yes, per NRCoT 9.2: (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf):

Also from the Railcard terms (https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/ - I've used the Network Railcard site, but this particular term is the same regardless of railcard type:

It's a bit harsh when permission has essentially been gained before boarding though.

methecooldude · 7 Apr 2024

skyhigh said:
It's a bit harsh when permission has essentially been gained before boarding though.

Sure, but that is what it is

Watershed · 7 Apr 2024

In my view, the member of staff was being very unreasonable in charging you the undiscounted fare having given you permission to buy on board.

Their verbal permission to buy on board likely constituted permission from an authorised member of staff under condition 6.1.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, meaning that you were entitled to buy onboard at the same price as you would have paid if buying your ticket at the station immediately prior to travel - i.e. a Railcard-discounted fare.

That being said, I'm not sure I would necessarily bother raising this with Northern because it is presumably 'only' a few pounds that you were overcharged by (obviously it is a different matter if it was a longer, more expensive journey) and they are unlikely to readily reimburse you the amount overcharged by. There is even an outside possibility they might try and treat it as a ticketing irregularity with all of the associated consequences.

In future I'd push back pointing out that they gave you permission to buy onboard and therefore the NRCoT requires this to be at the same price as what you'd have paid at the station.

That being said, I appreciate that if you're unsure you may not want to challenge the guard - only today I found myself in this situation, having asked the guard whether I could buy onboard. They indicated yes, but then charged an increased onboard fare (let alone not giving me the discount I was entitled to). I would have challenged it but this was abroad, where of course the rules may be different - and I only had a fellow passenger as a translator as I don't speak the local language...

methecooldude said:
Yes, per NRCoT 9.2: (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf):

Also from the Railcard terms (https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/ - I've used the Network Railcard site, but this particular term is the same regardless of railcard type:

That would be the position if no permission had been obtained - but condition 6.1.2 of the NRCoT was fulfilled based on what the OP has told us, this entitling the OP to buy their ticket at the earliest opportunity at no surcharge.

methecooldude · 7 Apr 2024

Watershed said:
Their verbal permission to buy on board likely constituted permission from an authorised member of staff under condition 6.1.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, meaning that you were entitled to buy onboard at the same price as you would have paid if buying your ticket at the station immediately prior to travel - i.e. a Railcard-discounted fare.

You miss a bit of 6.1.2:

The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect

Hornbeam Park is unstaffed, 6.1.2 doesn't apply. The wording states 'and', not 'or'

Haywain · 7 Apr 2024

Watershed said:
In future I'd push back pointing out that they gave you permission to buy onboard and therefore the NRCoT requires this to be at the same price as what you'd have paid at the station.

In future the OP should, in the same situation, establish that they can purchase a railcard discounted ticket on board before boarding.

Watershed · 7 Apr 2024

methecooldude said:
You miss a bit of 6.1.2:

Hornbeam Park is unstaffed, 6.1.2 doesn't apply

No definition of "staffed" is given in the NRCoT. You and I, as people well-versed in how the railway works, may assume it to mean that there are platform staff. But the NRCoT doesn't say that.

Why should it make any difference - as far as the passenger is concerned - whether a member of the train company's staff standing on the platform and giving the passenger permission is employed in the role of "Conductor" or "Dispatcher", for example? Surely a conductor is 'better qualified' to give such permission in any event!

What about a station that sometimes has an open ticket office or platform staff, during times when the former is closed or the latter aren't present. Does this station - which you would presumably agree is "staffed" during the hours the former are open/present - magically become unstaffed?

At the end of the day, contracts have to be read purposively - in other words, the intention of the drafter has to be used as the starting point (and given that if this is a consumer contract, any ambiguity is interpreted in the consumer's favour).

Do you really think the intention of the NRCoT's drafter(s) was to exclude someone in the OP's position from being authorised to buy onboard, merely because Hornbeam Park doesn't have a ticket office? I think that would be to stretch the wording and intention of the clause to something it does not say and is not intended to mean; it would be an absurd interpretation and perverse outcome.

Of course, all of the above may mean that the OP is found to be 'in the right' in Court. But it is possibly not of great assistance before then, because (as mentioned) I would expect Northern to be unwilling to voluntarily reimburse the OP the amount they've been overcharged.

robbeech · 7 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
In future the OP should, in the same situation, establish that they can purchase a railcard discounted ticket on board before boarding.

I suspect that would not come across as well as just asking if they can get on and would alert the staff member to their knowledge. More chance of receiving a firm NO from them here.

Haywain · 7 Apr 2024

robbeech said:
I suspect that would not come across as well as just asking if they can get on and would alert the staff member to their knowledge. More chance of receiving a firm NO from them here.

So, better than a yes and then being charged the full fare. And when you then argue coming across as even more of a smart a***.

transportphoto · 7 Apr 2024

I’d hazard a guess that the guard who sold the ticket is audited on ticket sales - e.g. on offering discounts where the company expect they shouldn’t be. Would anyone have any insight as to whether this is the case?

glasgowniteowl · 7 Apr 2024

What type of rail card do you hold?

reb0118 · 7 Apr 2024

transportphoto said:
I’d hazard a guess that the guard who sold the ticket is audited on ticket sales - e.g. on offering discounts where the company expect they shouldn’t.......?

It is possible for this to happen - in my experience not often but not impossible.

northwichcat · 7 Apr 2024

I don't suppose it was a weekday train that was scheduled to leave before 10am and you had arrived for the first service after 10am? If that was the case it may have been reasonable for the guard to refuse to issue a discounted ticket, as ticket restrictions depend on the scheduled time, not the actual time. However, if it was another train then it does seem unreasonable.

transportphoto said:
I’d hazard a guess that the guard who sold the ticket is audited on ticket sales - e.g. on offering discounts where the company expect they shouldn’t be. Would anyone have any insight as to whether this is the case?

Surely a guard can give a reason for making one odd exception? Otherwise, they might refuse a disabled railcard discount where it isn't easy for a wheelchair passenger to get to a ticket machine on the other platform.

I would have thought it's more strange the guard said card only, given Northern TVMs are card only and if there's no open ticket office you are allowed to pay cash on board even if there's a working TVM.

Watershed said:
Of course, all of the above may mean that the OP is found to be 'in the right' in Court. But it is possibly not of great assistance before then, because (as mentioned) I would expect Northern to be unwilling to voluntarily reimburse the OP the amount they've been overcharged.

Old Northern (pre-Arriva taking over) might have given a complimentary ticket if you complained and they thought you were entitled to complain but also they felt they weren't obliged to offer you compensation. Under the new system even the complimentary tickets are less generous - they issue a return for a 60 minute+ delay, rather than a day ticket. Although, they do now issue singles for 30 minute+ delays.

Somewhere · 7 Apr 2024

Watershed said:
No definition of "staffed" is given in the NRCoT. You and I, as people well-versed in how the railway works, may assume it to mean that there are platform staff. But the NRCoT doesn't say that.

I suppose it could be argued, that if a train is standing in a station, that the station is staffed by the driver and the guard of that train

island · 7 Apr 2024

This is really rather poor form by the guard and this kind of "gotcha" behaviour will put people off travelling. The guard should have said "yes but it'll be full fare only".

AlterEgo · 7 Apr 2024

Total loser guard.

northwichcat said:
I don't suppose it was a weekday train that was scheduled to leave before 10am and you had arrived for the first service after 10am? If that was the case it may have been reasonable for the guard to refuse to issue a discounted ticket, as ticket restrictions depend on the scheduled time, not the actual time. However, if it was another train then it does seem unreasonable.

What would 10am have to do with it here?

Wolfie · 7 Apr 2024

skyhigh said:
It's a bit harsh when permission has essentially been gained before boarding though.

If l was cynical l'd think that Guard was boosting her commission.....

hornbeampark · 7 Apr 2024

glasgowniteowl said:
What type of rail card do you hold?

I hold a physical 16-25 railcard.

northwichcat said:
I don't suppose it was a weekday train that was scheduled to leave before 10am and you had arrived for the first service after 10am?

It was not. It was today - I composed my post about 5 minutes after paying the fare!

Watershed said:
That being said, I'm not sure I would necessarily bother raising this with Northern because it is presumably 'only' a few pounds …

You presume correctly Watershed the difference in the price of the discounted off-peak single and the undiscounted anytime is a mere £3.75.

I appreciate the advice of all forum members on this.

I agree that creating a stink with Northern over £3.75 would be unwise. Indeed, I am only young and the life lessons this interaction have taught me are worth far more than that.

It’s a shame really. I know most of the conductors on this line very well and they are generally a very lovely bunch - today was just not my lucky day.

cool110 · 8 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
Total loser guard.

What would 10am have to do with it here?

The £12 minimum fare on the 16-17, 16-25, 26-30, and veteran's railcards being more than the undiscouted fare, therefore making them useless.

furlong · 8 Apr 2024

In future, always mention the ticket and any discount you need (and anything out-of-the-ordinary) as part of your question so there can be no surprises later.

AlterEgo · 8 Apr 2024

cool110 said:
The £12 minimum fare on the 16-17, 16-25, 26-30, and veteran's railcards being more than the undiscouted fare, therefore making them useless.

But @northwichcat was on about restrictions referring to the scheduled time and not the actual time, and railcards have no such provision. They’re valid for discounts any time after 10am, regardless of whether the train was late or not. So it can’t be that.

hornbeampark · 8 Apr 2024

furlong said:
In future, always mention the ticket and any discount you need (and anything out-of-the-ordinary) as part of your question so there can be no surprises later.

While I appreciate the message furlong that wouldn’t have been very feasible ‘in real life’.

It was a late running train, there were no other passengers on the platform. The guard was clearly very rushed and keen to get going - it was just a quick, opportunistic request from me!

Quite frankly it would have appeared a touch strange if I had said, ‘may I buy an off peak day return to Leeds with 16-25 railcard discount on board’ whilst the guard was already preparing to dispatch the train.

I don’t really intend to board a train without a valid ticket it future. I always have sufficient time to obtain one before travelling so all of this is academic I suppose.

I thought I got a touch lucky, I’d get to my destination a little earlier (at the benefit of this surprise late train) and thought I had appealed to the guards better nature (not to mention I am clearly not a fare evader, having asked for a ticket before boarding).

rs101 · 8 Apr 2024

methecooldude said:
You miss a bit of 6.1.2:

Hornbeam Park is unstaffed, 6.1.2 doesn't apply. The wording states 'and', not 'or'

However, the final part of 6.1.2 would apply "or heard an audible announcement to this effect" - they asked the staff member who told them it was okay to board.

northwichcat · 8 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
But @northwichcat was on about restrictions referring to the scheduled time and not the actual time, and railcards have no such provision. They’re valid for discounts any time after 10am, regardless of whether the train was late or not. So it can’t be that.

I should have said minimum wage, not time restrictions. However, if you're saying 10am relates to the time the ticket is sold, not the time of the departure, doesn't that create an interesting scanerio? Someone who turns up at 09:54 for 09:59 departure and pays by card at the ticket machine gets charged the full fare. While someone who collects a promise to pay notice and pays with cash on the train, should be entitled to a discounted fare?

Bletchleyite · 8 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
I should have said minimum wage, not time restrictions. However, if you're saying 10am relates to the time the ticket is sold, not the time of the departure, doesn't that create an interesting scanerio? Someone who turns up at 09:54 for 09:59 departure and pays by card at the ticket machine gets charged the full fare. While someone who collects a promise to pay notice and pays with cash on the train, should be entitled to a discounted fare?

If the train is delayed then there's a valid point there, but surely when a ticket is sold on board it's based on the time you boarded the train, as that's the point when you needed to have a valid ticket from, even if it happens to be physically sold shortly after that?

Haywain · 8 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
should have said minimum wage

Or possibly minimum fare?

AlterEgo · 8 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
I should have said minimum wage, not time restrictions. However, if you're saying 10am relates to the time the ticket is sold

No, I'm saying quite simply the restriction is plainly, "not valid before 10am" whenever it is sold, and whenever the scheduled time of the train is.

Bletchleyite said:
If the train is delayed then there's a valid point there, but surely when a ticket is sold on board it's based on the time you boarded the train, as that's the point when you needed to have a valid ticket from, even if it happens to be physically sold shortly after that?

This.

185143 · 8 Apr 2024

I was dealt with the same way by a Northern guard at Sheffield a few years ago.

Required dogbox rolled out of the siding about 2 minutes before departure. So I asked the guard if I could buy a ticket from her. She said yes so I got on and asked for a return to Darnall, railcard in hand. Was told there's no discounts onboard and ching for the full anytime fare.

Felt rather hard done by given I'd asked for permission, it was granted, she sold my ticket and then disappeared into the cab!

sheff1 · 8 Apr 2024

methecooldude said:
You miss a bit of 6.1.2:

Hornbeam Park is unstaffed, 6.1.2 doesn't apply. The wording states 'and', not 'or'

Watershed said:
No definition of "staffed" is given in the NRCoT. You and I, as people well-versed in how the railway works, may assume it to mean that there are platform staff. But the NRCoT doesn't say that.

Why should it make any difference - as far as the passenger is concerned - whether a member of the train company's staff standing on the platform and giving the passenger permission is employed in the role of "Conductor" or "Dispatcher", for example? Surely a conductor is 'better qualified' to give such permission in any event!

Prior to the 2022 version of the NRCOT para 6.1.2 made no reference to a station being staffed.

Buy-on-Board Query | Authorised Person Permission | Discounted Fare

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