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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

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DMckduck97

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73128 said:
Only 5 car routes were planned to be the likes of Ascot to Farnham and Guildford to Aldershot. Part of the issue with the cabs was that 2* 5 car had to be effectively identical to a 10 car in platform postioning.
Click to expand...
Isn't there plans for two 5 cars to split at Epsom and go to Dorking and Guildford eventually?

SWT used to do that didn't they?
 
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norbitonflyer

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CR165022 said:
028, 036 & 039 have been out on the runs as well, albeit not as much as the other 2...
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Not nearly as much. 028 three times, 039 eight times, and neither since early February. 036 just once, in early March.

043 has been out more times than all the other four put together

Time for an update

Until April 12th Diagram 2U91/92/93/94
January 9-12, one round trip only
January 15th - No run (not scheduled)
January 30th/April 8th - No run (strike).
February 1st - cancelled due to incident at Wraysbury.
*March 15th - First run cancelled due to train failure. Second ran as normal.

701028 (3) February 6th, 7th, 9th
701036 (1) March 7th
701037 (21) January 9, 11, 18, Feb 15, 20, 26-29, Mar 1, 4, 5, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27, Apr 9-12
701039 (8) January 10th, 12th, 17th, 23rd, 26th, 31st, Feb (1st), 2nd, 5th
701043 (30) January 16, 19, 22, 24, 25, 29, Feb 8, 12-14, 16, 19, 21-23, Mar 6, 8, 11-15*, 19, 20, 25, 28, Apr 2-5

from April 15th Diagram 2U09/16/19/26/29/36

701037 (1) Apr 22
701043 (10) Apr 15-19, 23-26, 29
 
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T

TEW

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73128 said:
Only 5 car routes were planned to be the likes of Ascot to Farnham and Guildford to Aldershot. Part of the issue with the cabs was that 2* 5 car had to be effectively identical to a 10 car in platform postioning.
Click to expand...
5-cars were never planned for those routes. They've always been planned to remain as 450s. I believe there are some sidings where 10-cars cannot fit, there are definitely a few more unusual reversing movements which cannot be 10-cars too. With 458s and 707s there were always some 5-car Windsor Line services on Weekdays, the 5-cars can work those too. For example today there are half hourly services terminating at Clandon due to engineering work, a 10-car cannot do that move. The 30 5-car units allows the flexibility for that kind of service to still be provided.

DMckduck97 said:
Isn't there plans for two 5 cars to split at Epsom and go to Dorking and Guildford eventually?

SWT used to do that didn't they?
Click to expand...
No. The platforms at Epsom are not permissive so except in an emergency you cannot split or join there.
 
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norbitonflyer

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DMckduck97 said:
Isn't there plans for two 5 cars to split at Epsom and go to Dorking and Guildford eventually?

SWT used to do that didn't they?
Click to expand...
I'm not aware of that ever having happened, even in pre-nationalisation days, and certainly not in SWT days. (The trains used from electrification in 1925 until the 1940s could not easily be split anyway, as they ran as two 3-car units with a trailer set - no driving cabs - in between).
 
43096

43096

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TEW said:
5-cars were never planned for those routes. They've always been planned to remain as 450s. I believe there are some sidings where 10-cars cannot fit, there are definitely a few more unusual reversing movements which cannot be 10-cars too. With 458s and 707s there were always some 5-car Windsor Line services on Weekdays, the 5-cars can work those too.
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Indeed. Pre-Covid there were some 5-car 707 turns, but with the timetable reductions since everything should really be operating at full length. The easiest way of thinking of the 701 order is the 10-cars are 45x (455/456/458) replacement and the 5-cars are a one-for-one replacement for the 707s.
 
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TEW

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43096 said:
Indeed. Pre-Covid there were some 5-car 707 turns, but with the timetable reductions since everything should really be operating at full length. The easiest way of thinking of the 701 order is the 10-cars are 45x (455/456/458) replacement and the 5-cars are a one-for-one replacement for the 707s.
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Yes, there doesn't really seem a need for any 5-car diagrams with the current timetable on a weekday. The Sunday Guildford via Cobham services would need to be 5-cars as they terminate at Wimbledon until early afternoon and use a siding which is 8-car maximum. I think long term some 5-car units will remain useful. It may be that none or very few run solo on Weekdays, but they will come in handy at weekends during engineering work if nothing else.
 
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norbitonflyer

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TEW said:
Yes, there doesn't really seem a need for any 5-car diagrams with the current timetable on a weekday. The Sunday Guildford via Cobham services would need to be 5-cars as they terminate at Wimbledon until early afternoon and use a siding which is 8-car maximum. I think long term some 5-car units will remain useful. It may be that none or very few run solo on Weekdays, but they will come in handy at weekends during engineering work if nothing else.
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Another use for 5-car sets is when trains need to terminate in the bay at Kingston, as that will only take 8 cars max. Ten car trains can reverse in platform 2, but that prevents any other train arriving from the New Malden direction whilst it is doing so.
 
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Snow1964

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brad465 said:
They only have 2 units, the rest are with Southeastern now. How long before SWR start asking for some of them back the way things are going?
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Aren't the remaining 2 supposed to be going to SE late April, to they can be repainted for SE before June timetable change.
 
Sun Chariot

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After 701014's drag to Marchwood was curtailed for 2 days at Eastleigh, I hope this Tuesday's drag goes the whole way:

Wimbledon to Marchwood:

Realtime Trains | 5Q75 0921½ Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Marchwood Mod Gbrf | 09/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q75 0921½ departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Marchwood Mod Gbrf on 09/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And what might be a reciprocal drag back:

Realtime Trains | 5Q78 1217 Marchwood M.O.D. to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 09/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q78 1217 departure from Marchwood M.O.D. to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 09/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk www.realtimetrains.co.uk
 
PG

PG

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Clarence Yard said:
The DfT are quite well aware of the cl.701 situation. They also have their fingers all over the recruitment and training plans because they have to authorise the spend.
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This prompts me to ask, though I understand if you feel unable to offer an opinion: Has the department having to authorise the spend had any bearing upon the speed of the 701s full introduction into service?
 
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Carlisle

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PG said:
Has the department having to authorise the spend had any bearing upon the speed of the 701s full introduction into service?
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Hardly a new phenomenon though as a while ago class 321s were delayed entering service.on the old Northern Rail due to the TOC & Dft squabbling over training costs.
 
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Snow1964

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PG said:
This prompts me to ask, though I understand if you feel unable to offer an opinion: Has the department having to authorise the spend had any bearing upon the speed of the 701s full introduction into service?
Click to expand...
It is also fairly illogical and far fetched that the DfT would authorise the train order in 2017, along with simulators etc. Then at same time not authorise the commissioning and training needed to put them into service.

If SWR is now struggling to fund training, either they have squandered the training money on something else, or they were really dumb in 2017 and forgot to get it authorised as part of the agreed train order.
 
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Goldfish62

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Clarence Yard said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
Ah, so the delay in training all comes back to the DfT. Why am I not surprised?

Snow1964 said:
It is also fairly illogical and far fetched that the DfT would authorise the train order in 2017, along with simulators etc. Then at same time not authorise the commissioning and training needed to put them into service.
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That would assume that the DfT normally exercises logic in its running of the railways since it took over the reins during Covid.

You also have to remember that back then the plan was that guards would only have a customer service role and that trains would be able to run in service without them, but now their role has fundamentally expanded, requiring additional training.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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43096 said:
Yet DfT are happy to keep paying for the 455s as well as the 701s as a result.
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I suspect they aren't as they already have their resource budget reduced in 2024/5 from last year as they expected further reduction in the support required for TOCs as revenue recovers. They will have to go grovelling back to the treasury for more budget who may just say find it from within your allocated budget so something else will have to suffer.
 
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Invincible

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Nicholas Lewis

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Invincible said:
From
www.telegraph.co.uk

How a 200-year-old British industry reached the end of the line

Once a Victorian behemoth, train manufacturers are now fighting for survival
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
"no payments due until the trains actually enter service"
So they only need to pay for (4?) 701s in service, and pay the low leasing costs for the old 455s?
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Thats referring to any contracts let for new trains now would be funded by the leasing company and leasing charges only being applicable when the trains are bought into use. SWR have publicly stated they've accepted a fair few 701's although one would expect if they aren't fit for use they aren't paying the leasing charges. Conversely though if they can't use them due to lack of trained drivers thats hardly the lessors problem. Mind you with the whole saga the truth remains as elusive as ever MI6 would be proud.
 
SEtrains

SEtrains

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Sun Chariot said:
After 701014's drag to Marchwood was curtailed for 2 days at Eastleigh, I hope this Tuesday's drag goes the whole way:

Wimbledon to Marchwood:

Realtime Trains | 5Q75 0921½ Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Marchwood Mod Gbrf | 09/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q75 0921½ departure from Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs to Marchwood Mod Gbrf on 09/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And what might be a reciprocal drag back:

Realtime Trains | 5Q78 1217 Marchwood M.O.D. to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 09/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q78 1217 departure from Marchwood M.O.D. to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 09/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Click to expand...
This drag has now been cancelled to allow 69008 to pick up a 458 for refurbishment.
 
G

Goldfish62

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Invincible said:
From
www.telegraph.co.uk

How a 200-year-old British industry reached the end of the line

Once a Victorian behemoth, train manufacturers are now fighting for survival
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
"no payments due until the trains actually enter service"
So they only need to pay for (4?) 701s in service, and pay the low leasing costs for the old 455s?
Click to expand...
That would explain a lot!

In this scenario DfT will have noted the sluggage growth in passenger numbers on SWR, particularly in the peaks, and decided that they can get away an 8-car suburban railway and no additional services indefinitely.

It also means that there's no incentive to commission and bring into service more units.

The 701s would be a quick and convenient replacement for South Eastern's Networkers...
 
brad465

brad465

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Goldfish62 said:
That would explain a lot!

In this scenario DfT will have noted the sluggage growth in passenger numbers on SWR, particularly in the peaks, and decided that they can get away an 8-car suburban railway and no additional services indefinitely.

It also means that there's no incentive to commission and bring into service more units.

The 701s would be a quick and convenient replacement for South Eastern's Networkers...
Click to expand...
So there are no issues with the 701s then, it's just a pathetic cost-saving exercise all round.
 
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