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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

norbitonflyer

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Looking at next week on RTT the 2U9x circuit appears to have disappeared so it would appear to be from next week.
Or they might have decided that whatever the soft launch set out to prove has now been achieved.



....................................................Or failed.

Only ever one at a time in passenger service.
yes, I know. I was observing that the number of units needed to operate the Windsor service is exactly the same as the number of units that have so far been in passenger service.
 
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kw12

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This month's Railway Magazine reports (on page 80) that "during their first nine weeks in use, four Class 701/0 10-car units were used and were said to have performed consistently well. SWR says it is working closely with unions to progress the full training programme for drivers and guards".
 

norbitonflyer

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This month's Railway Magazine reports (on page 80) that "during their first nine weeks in use, four Class 701/0 10-car units were used and were said to have performed consistently well. SWR says it is working closely with unions to progress the full training programme for drivers and guards".
Only one failure (16th March, first round trip didn't happen but second did) in 13 weeks. 83 working days, (not counting strikes, bank holidays and external disruptions) and about 160 round trips. That's about 99.4% reliability!
 

Bigfoot

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Only one failure (16th March, first round trip didn't happen but second did) in 13 weeks. 83 working days, (not counting strikes, bank holidays and external disruptions) and about 160 round trips. That's about 99.4% reliability!
There have been plenty of faults that occurred during the trips though, those issues are not taken into account of your reliability statistics.

Also 2 return trips a day is far from intensive use. They barely get warmed up.
 
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There have been plenty of faults that occurred during the trips though, those issues are not taken into account of your reliability statistics.

Also 2 return trips a day is far from intensive use. They barely get warmed up.
Those faults haven't actually stopped or impaired the service though, and that's where it matters. When you look at reliability statistics you always look for miles between major failures, meaning those which result in the train being unable to carry passengers. However your point about the lack of usage is true.
 

Goldfish62

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There have been plenty of faults that occurred during the trips though, those issues are not taken into account of your reliability statistics.
The standard method of measuring reliability of all train fleets is for each four week period the average mileage between technical faults that cause delays to passengers. It's known as Mp701D. No idea what that stands for.

Faults that don't incur delays to passengers aren't included as a measure for any fleet.
 
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The standard method of measuring reliability of all train fleets is for each four week period the average mileage between technical faults that cause delays to passengers. It's known as Mp701D. No idea what that stands for.

Faults that don't incur delays to passengers aren't included as a measure for any fleet.
Ironic the name includes "701"
 

PG

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The standard method of measuring reliability of all train fleets is for each four week period the average mileage between technical faults that cause delays to passengers. It's known as Mp701D. No idea what that stands for.

Faults that don't incur delays to passengers aren't included as a measure for any fleet.
See this thread (only 4 posts) "What is Mp701d"?
 
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Something really interesting about the 701s is their weight. The 10 car is 347t. Meanwhile 2x5 car 710s weigh 364t, despite having no toilets, and less seats, as well as being the exact same carriage length as the 701s. I'm not exactly sure how such a weight reduction is possible considering they're supposed to be effectively the same under the hood, but maybe there were a few changes between the 701s and the other Aventras?
I believe the reduced weight of the 701 is also one of the reasons the unit can accelerate so quickly despite it being on DC (starting acceleration on wikipedia is now quoted as "Maximum Current: 0.96m/s^2")
 
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43096

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Something really interesting about the 701s is their weight. The 10 car is 347t. Meanwhile 2x5 car 710s weigh 364t, despite having no toilets, and less seats, as well as being the exact same carriage length. I'm not exactly sure how such a weight reduction is possible considering they're supposed to be effectively the same under the hood, but maybe there were a few changes between the 701s and the other Aventras?
I believe the reduced weight of the 701 is also one of the reasons the unit can accelerate so quickly despite it being on DC (starting acceleration on wikipedia is now quoted as "Maximum Current: 0.96m/s^2")
Extra cabs in the 710 pair will add weight (crashworthiness), as will equipment for AC electrification such as pantographs and transformers.
 

D365

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Are you sure that one those figures is not the ”crush load” rating?
 

Samzino

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Something really interesting about the 701s is their weight. The 10 car is 347t. Meanwhile 2x5 car 710s weigh 364t, despite having no toilets, and less seats, as well as being the exact same carriage length as the 701s. I'm not exactly sure how such a weight reduction is possible considering they're supposed to be effectively the same under the hood, but maybe there were a few changes between the 701s and the other Aventras?
I believe the reduced weight of the 701 is also one of the reasons the unit can accelerate so quickly despite it being on DC (starting acceleration on wikipedia is now quoted as "Maximum Current: 0.96m/s^2")
Do they have the same amount of motor boxes, traction package configuration. I seem to remember the 345s have quite a bit of powered axels especially on the said trailer car(car 5)

Assuming the 9 car 345 motor / bogie arrangement is the following:

Traction motors: two asynchronous of 250kW (typically this means per motor car)

2-Bo + Bo-2 +Bo-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2 then it only truly has two carriages that are non motorised. What would be the 701 arrangement.
 

Peter Sarf

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Something really interesting about the 701s is their weight. The 10 car is 347t. Meanwhile 2x5 car 710s weigh 364t, despite having no toilets, and less seats, as well as being the exact same carriage length as the 701s. I'm not exactly sure how such a weight reduction is possible considering they're supposed to be effectively the same under the hood, but maybe there were a few changes between the 701s and the other Aventras?
I believe the reduced weight of the 701 is also one of the reasons the unit can accelerate so quickly despite it being on DC (starting acceleration on wikipedia is now quoted as "Maximum Current: 0.96m/s^2")
I suspect the lack of transformers and other AC bits might explain some of the reduction in weight.
 
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Are you sure that one those figures is not the ”crush load” rating?
They're the figures listed on the plates outside the train between the carriages.
Do they have the same amount of motor boxes, traction package configuration. I seem to remember the 345s have quite a bit of powered axels especially on the said trailer car(car 5)

Assuming the 9 car 345 motor / bogie arrangement is the following:

Traction motors: two asynchronous of 250kW (typically this means per motor car)

2-Bo + Bo-2 +Bo-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2 then it only truly has two carriages that are non motorised. What would be the 701 arrangement.
A 701 has 8 motored carriages, however I believe less motored axles or something along those lines, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I suspect the lack of transformers and other AC bits might explain some of the reduction in weight.
Probably, although I think the equipment is still there for AC operation, just no pantograph?
 

Peter Mugridge

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I suspect the lack of transformers and other AC bits might explain some of the reduction in weight.
2 x 5 car has twice as many cabs as 1 x 10 car; would not most of the weight difference be accounted for by the reinforced structure around the cab areas?

I note the Combined Volume gives the weight for the driving vehicles as 42 tonnes against between 31 and 37 tonnes for the intermediate vehicles.
 
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2 x 5 car has twice as many cabs as 1 x 10 car; would not most of the weight difference be accounted for by the reinforced structure around the cab areas?

I note the Combined Volume gives the weight for the driving vehicles as 42 tonnes against between 31 and 37 tonnes for the intermediate vehicles.
Hit the nail on the head. If I could get hold of the 5 car 701 weight figures and in turn the 2x5 weight we'd know for sure.
 

norbitonflyer

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The standard method of measuring reliability of all train fleets is for each four week period the average mileage between technical faults that cause delays to passengers. It's known as Mp701D. No idea what that stands for.

Faults that don't incur delays to passengers aren't included as a measure for any fleet.
In the latest issue of Modern Railways, Roger Ford's league table of new units has figures for fifteen classes, ranging from 522 Mp701D for class 777 to 20,789 for class 710/1. Aventras occupy five of the top six places (classes 710/1, 720, 710/2 and 720/6, 730) with class 345 in ninth.

But as Captain Deltic observes, this is just a snapshot - for example over the past year class 710/1s monthly figures have fluctuated between 7,000 and 29,000, with an average of 14,000. And of course for the 701s, a second failure would instantly halve the Mp701D figure!

The 701s have now run on 62 days, the first four of which had one round trip and the others had two, making a total of 119 (excluding the one that was cancelled last month) Waterloo to Windsor is a 52 mile round trip, so that's 6,188 Mp701D (7,116 if you include ECS workings to enter and leave passenger service), which would put them in sixth place, between Class 195/0 (8,692 Mp701D) and Class 730 (5,947).

But its barely 2,000 if you take the figures for March alone (39 round trips), putting it 13th, just above class 769
 
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Bigfoot

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Those faults haven't actually stopped or impaired the service though, and that's where it matters. When you look at reliability statistics you always look for miles between major failures, meaning those which result in the train being unable to carry passengers. However your point about the lack of usage is true.
But are they faults that need addressing when it comes to having a full fleet running all day everyday. That is probably more the question that needs answering.

Some faults and associated company policies allow a train to run until it can be removed from service at a suitable location. If the fault occurs on the second trip for example then that suitable location is potentially Waterloo.

It's clearly not black and white as many posts in this thread seem to believe.
 

3973EXL

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701022

701058
 

norbitonflyer

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But are they faults that need addressing when it comes to having a full fleet running all day everyday. That is probably more the question that needs answering.



It's clearly not black and white as many posts in this thread seem to believe.
Quite so. It's quite easy to provide 100% avaialbility when at least five units have entered service, but there is only one diagram to fulfil.
 

Goldfish62

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But are they faults that need addressing when it comes to having a full fleet running all day everyday. That is probably more the question that needs answering.

Some faults and associated company policies allow a train to run until it can be removed from service at a suitable location. If the fault occurs on the second trip for example then that suitable location is potentially Waterloo.

It's clearly not black and white as many posts in this thread seem to believe.
So what? That's just like any other new train that enters service. Look at the appalling reliability of the 777s. That hasn't stopped their continued introduction en masse. The 345s had terrible reliability when first introduced and even now it's not brilliant. The 458s were terrible for the first few years.

If you expect every problem to be ironed out before full service introduction then no new train would ever be introduced.
 
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Today's 701 on the Windsors is 037
Finally something other than 043!
I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know the reason from switching the original black front to yellow?
screenshot-2024-04-11-at-11-08-50-png.png
 
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norbitonflyer

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They're all in the Combined Volume - but I'm at work at the moment.
Figures from combined volume
701/0
DMS 42.1t
MS 32.7t
TS 29.4t
MS 31.5t
MS 37.9t
(the other half is a mirror image)

Total 343.2 tons

701/5 figures are not given, but it is evident from the above that a DMS is between 5 and 10 tons heavier than an MS, so a 2x5 train will be 10 to 20 tons (3 to 6%) heavier than a 1x10

A 720 is not directly comparable
DMS 42.5t
PMS 39.8t
MS 39.6t
MS 34.1t
DTS 37.7t

Note the extra weight of the AC gubbins in the PMS and its neighbour, and that a Class 720 DTS weights 8 tons more than a class 701 TS, suggesting that is the extra weight of having a cab.
 

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