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Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Bornin1980s said:
Has any other country ever gone from building literally all its railway carriages to importing them all?
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There are plenty of examples of countries importing a significant proportion of their needs, while also building new trains for export to other countries.
France, Germany and Spain fall into that category at the moment.
I think Italy is mostly home-grown (except for Italo's trains) - but I was surprised to find my Circumetnea train (in Sicily) was built by Pesa in Poland.
Competition law, trading agreements and increasing standardisation, as well as price, all contribute to foreign procurement decisions.

Places like China and Turkey initially imported all their new high speed stock, but increasingly now build their own.
There are also examples of countries with specialist component production, which they supply for final assembly elsewhere (eg brakes, traction systems etc).
And others where a minimum local work content is mandated, and therefore with some local supply (eg the USA, Australia, South Africa).
 
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Bornin1980s

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Invincible said:

In pursuit of speed

www.imeche.org www.imeche.org
A history of the Bombardier Zefiro (on which the HS2 train is based) on says the bogies were designed in Derby but made in Italy or China.
HS1 was based on the Hitachi A train made in Japan, then Hitachi brought the Zefiro platform from Alstom, but they made a joint bid for HS2.
Guess if all the UK factories close, the production line in China could do HS2?, but hope a way forward for UK production can be found.
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If production at Derby ends, could the design office remain? Local design could be useful.
 
D365

D365

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LNW-GW Joint said:
There are plenty of examples of countries importing a significant proportion of their needs, while also building new trains for export to other countries.
France, Germany and Spain fall into that category at the moment.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Some of the latest "ICE" carriages are being constructed by Talgo in Spain!
 
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Chester1

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Bornin1980s said:
Has any other country ever gone from building literally all its railway carriages to importing them all?
Click to expand...

Why doesn't Newton Aycliffe count? They weld everything together there now which removes the last significant production difference between it and Litchurch Lane. The unique feature of Litchurch Lane is design work and that seems to be staying (for now).

Newport and Goole are pure assembly but then so is Nissan Sunderland! Few people would say no cars are made there. What matters to UK economy is where the parts are from.

Invincible said:

In pursuit of speed

www.imeche.org www.imeche.org
A history of the Bombardier Zefiro (on which the HS2 train is based) on says the bogies were designed in Derby but made in Italy or China.
HS1 was based on the Hitachi A train made in Japan, then Hitachi brought the Zefiro platform from Alstom, but they made a joint bid for HS2.
Guess if all the UK factories close, the production line in China could do HS2?, but hope a way forward for UK production can be found.
Click to expand...

A lot of the stuff announced at the time said the bogies would be made in Crewe. There are social benefit clauses in the HS2 rolling stock contract and therefore I doubt they can move the announced stuff outside the UK. They probably specified Crewe rather than Italy or China in order to meet tender requirements. Cutting UK production would void the contract. Potentially it might be acceptable if Newton Aycliffe took on the whole contract. The external parts are due to be welded together in Newton Aycliffe and transported to Derby for final assembly. That could probably be done at Widnes without breaking the contract.

Bornin1980s said:
If production at Derby ends, could the design office remain? Local design could be useful.
Click to expand...

Before the pandemic Talgo planned to open a R&D facility in Chesterfield but it seems to have been dropped following reduced European demand in last four years. Its possible Alstom could use Litchurch Lane or a new site for R&D without production. The other option is my bet - R&D in Derbyshire and assembly in Widnes. There is enough space on site to expand to two production lines and thats more than enough for their likely order book.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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The AT200/300 trains from Newton Aycliffe had a very high Japanese content, with some UK customisation.
The HS2 product is based on a Bombardier/Ansaldo (Germany/Italy) design that has been bought by Hitachi along with the Zefiro factory at Pistoia.
The UK content of the Zefiro was very low (possibly the original bogie design).
We have yet to discover the design content of the HS2 trains, and where the components will come from for UK assembly.

Aventra had Swedish electrics, and the problematic TMS was probably a cross-Bombardier effort not unique to Aventra.
Alstom can call on multiple parts of its operation to integrate and assemble any sort of train, and will be engaged in doing just that for its new Adessia platform.
Derby will surely have a role in that, whatever happens to the assembly operation.
 
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Chester1

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LNW-GW Joint said:
The AT200/300 trains from Newton Aycliffe had a very high Japanese content, with some UK customisation.
The HS2 product is based on a Bombardier/Ansaldo (Germany/Italy) design that has been bought by Hitachi along with the Zefiro factory at Pistoia.
The UK content of the Zefiro was very low (possibly the original bogie design).
We have yet to discover the design content of the HS2 trains, and where the components will come from for UK assembly.

Aventra had Swedish electrics, and the problematic TMS was probably a cross-Bombardier effort not unique to Aventra.
Alstom can call on multiple parts of its operation to integrate and assemble any sort of train, and will be engaged in doing just that for its new Adessia platform.
Derby will surely have a role in that, whatever happens to the assembly operation.
Click to expand...

UK has free trade agreements with the EU, EFTA members and Japan. We don't yet have a FTA with India although we have apparently closed the majority of chapters of draft agreement but its not clear what train and parts tariffs we be (it won't be a zero tariff agreement). China is subject to our standard WTO tarrifs.

That biases our train procurement to UK, EU, Switzerland and Japan. Increasing the relevant WTO tarrifs would be a good protectionist measure.

Part manufacture at Litchurch Lane might be the safest long term bet for Derby's economy. Source of parts is not subject to as much political scrutiny and the logistics of exporting parts are easier than completed trains.
 
6

6Gman

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LNW-GW Joint said:
There are plenty of examples of countries importing a significant proportion of their needs, while also building new trains for export to other countries.
France, Germany and Spain fall into that category at the moment.
I think Italy is mostly home-grown (except for Italo's trains) - but I was surprised to find my Circumetnea train (in Sicily) was built by Pesa in Poland.
Competition law, trading agreements and increasing standardisation, as well as price, all contribute to foreign procurement decisions.

Places like China and Turkey initially imported all their new high speed stock, but increasingly now build their own.
There are also examples of countries with specialist component production, which they supply for final assembly elsewhere (eg brakes, traction systems etc).
And others where a minimum local work content is mandated, and therefore with some local supply (eg the USA, Australia, South Africa).
Click to expand...
And, of course, the various components of any new train can come from a number of different countries.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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LNW-GW Joint said:
There might well have been priced options, and inflation clauses, in the original TfL contract (not directly with DfT) in 2014.
But if those have expired, which is very likely, there would have to be new terms agreed.
At the same time, Alstom will be subject to performance and warranty terms on the existing fleet which might have a bearing on price.
The other Aventra TOCs will also need continuing support for their fleets.

If Wiki is correct, the original Crossrail order was for 65 trains with options for 18 more.
Five trains were added to the order in 2018 leaving 13 options, but no doubt with time/price limitations.
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Nick Crossfield MD of Alstom UK said on his interview with greensignals that the 345 options are there and that DafT had indicated that 90 vehicles would be ordered but haven't been.

https://www.greensignals.org/podcas...ring-alstom-begins-derby-factory-mothballing/

He also said they have been internalising some of the supply chain thats collapsed in good faith for that order.

Still wouldn't be surprised the govt give it to them at the 11th hour to leave Labour another unfunded liability they just what to time it suit the local elections probably.
 
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Bornin1980s said:
If production at Derby ends, could the design office remain? Local design could be useful.
Click to expand...
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom moved the office elsewhere in Derby.

The Adessia platform advertises the Flexx Eco bogie so Alstom is committed to it and likely intends to use it on more trains. Derby is responsible for much of the design work on the Flexx Eco.
Nicholas Lewis said:
Still wouldn't be surprised the govt give it to them at the 11th hour to leave Labour another unfunded liability they just what to time it suit the local elections probably.
Click to expand...
They'd procure financing and lease them, the Elizabeth line has higher passenger numbers than expectations so may be able to afford it. The 345s are already leased.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Energy said:
They'd procure financing and lease them, the Elizabeth line has higher passenger numbers than expectations so may be able to afford it. The 345s are already leased.
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Understand that but current trains are on a twenty year lease so TfL would be liable for additional leasing charges and then the cost of borrowing money has gone up so you can bet leasing charges will be higher albeit not for several years. Oh and you can expect TfL is probably being told they have to find the money for it so a political standoff.
 
D365

D365

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Energy said:
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom moved the office elsewhere in Derby.
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A pity, after having put [what looks like] a lot of investment into a thorough refurbishment into the design office.
 
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JonathanH

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Bornin1980s said:
One Question, is there a definite shortage of trains on the Elizabeth Line right now?
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70 units meets the current service requirements, so no shortage at present. The need for more units only arises when Paddington terminators are extended to Old Oak Common.
 
bcarmicle

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If there were more trains for the Elizabeth Line, could they be effectively used at present - how many spare paths are there?
 
MCR247

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bcarmicle said:
If there were more trains for the Elizabeth Line, could they be effectively used at present - how many spare paths are there?
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The problem with using them to start extra services is that these would later have to be withdrawn to provide adequate service to OOC.
 
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Trainman40083

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bcarmicle said:
If there were more trains for the Elizabeth Line, could they be effectively used at present - how many spare paths are there?
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I thought the plan was that those that terminated westbound at Paddington would extend to OOC, then return. By the time they decide what they want to do HS2 Euston will be up and running.
 
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Chester1

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JonathanH said:
70 units meets the current service requirements, so no shortage at present. The need for more units only arises when Paddington terminators are extended to Old Oak Common.
Click to expand...

The additional units will certainly be needed when HS2 opens to Old Oak Common. The smart thing to do would be to order them while Aventras can still be ordered and use the time to make a plan for Litchurch Lane. That could be closure with a government support package for Derby, further orders or switching entirely to production of parts. Probably an order would be used to just kick the can down the road for another year.
 
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Snow1964 said:
Although part of that is the UK method of ordering small batches of non standard trains, or ones with changes which causes complications, delays and extra cost.

C2C didn't they just took 12 Anglia spec trains and painted them differently, straight into service.

That is why many European countries now just have big framework orders and just draw down batches and fit them out as required. Modern trains are complicated, and to some extent like airliners you either buy standard design or you wait an eternity and hope it gets certified and works.

Northern has right idea with its big framework order (although with some 150s already 37 years old, is about 3 years late), but why do Chiltern and GWR need anything different. They all need a regional train and a local train. Should all be asking what is available, 2 bodyshell designs, same power train options (electric drive with raft that either holds diesel or battery) and a pantograph transformer car that can power it and charge batteries.

The idea that Operators need to draw up and invent a complete spec for a train is wrong, should be a we need a train to carry X suitable for journeys of 3 hours and variant for local services, what can you offer. Leave manufacturer to do the detailed spec,just specify basics, usually get cheaper product, or at least something delivered in 2 years instead of waiting 5-7 years (remember many of those trains still not in service were ordered 2017-2019)
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I have hope that the Northern and GWR orders will play out this way (common trains).

Tbf Electrostars did, and the Aventras until the 701s.
 
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dgl

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RealTrains07 said:
making up work specifically to keep a factory open is just delaying the inevitable and also removes the point of having tendering and competition
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And you end up with a British Leyland situation where quality isn't cared about because you know you've got guaranteed orders whatever.
 
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Chester1

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dgl said:
And you end up with a British Leyland situation where quality isn't cared about because you know you've got guaranteed orders whatever.
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The sad thing is that there are pathetic people who would prefer that situation because it was how things were done in the good old days....
 
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dgl said:
And you end up with a British Leyland situation where quality isn't cared about because you know you've got guaranteed orders whatever.,
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Couldn't agree more.

I remember my Dad coning home from work cursing continuously about the British Leyland vans in his fleet, only the Morris Ital vans stick in my mind 30 or 40 years later. I think some of the older BL vans in the fleet were a nightmare to keep on the road from what little I can recall.
 
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The London Overground Class 172s were initially intended to be extended from 2 to 3 or 4 cars before Bombardier priced themselves out of it. Chiltern got 4 Class 172s in the same order as well, from Angel Trains. Given the shortage of DMUs, could those 8 or 12 Class 172s be extended to 3 or 4 cars now? That would provide another 8 to 24 vehicles. Do they still have the Turbostar tooling? They presumably still have all the suppliers for spare parts for them still, since they’re not that old.
 
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DanNCL

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RUK said:
The London Overground Class 172s were initially intended to be extended from 2 to 3 or 4 cars before Bombardier priced themselves out of it. Chiltern got 4 Class 172s in the same order as well, from Angel Trains. Given the shortage of DMUs, could those 8 or 12 Class 172s be extended to 3 or 4 cars now? That would provide another 8 to 20 vehicles. Do they still have the Turbostar tooling? They presumably still have all the suppliers for spare parts for them still, since they’re not that old.
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There’s a whole fleet of 175s spare. The DFT won’t sign off on a new order for even intermediate DMU vehicles for as long as there’s an entire fleet of fairly modern DMUs already sat idle.
 
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Greybeard33

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RUK said:
The London Overground Class 172s were initially intended to be extended from 2 to 3 or 4 cars before Bombardier priced themselves out of it. Chiltern got 4 Class 172s in the same order as well, from Angel Trains. Given the shortage of DMUs, could those 8 or 12 Class 172s be extended to 3 or 4 cars now? That would provide another 8 to 20 vehicles. Do they still have the Turbostar tooling? They presumably still have all the suppliers for spare parts for them still, since they’re not that old.
Click to expand...
The diesel engines of the Class 172 do not comply with the current exhaust emissions requirements.
 
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