nwales58
Member
Electrification in use Plasencia-Badajoz from 15/12/2023.
The Alvia (1/day still) is accelerated ... by four minutes.
The Alvia (1/day still) is accelerated ... by four minutes.
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Madrid to Lisbon in 2024 - possible timings if a service were to run
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HS2isgood
Member
Yes! Whenever the 106s enter service, improving train availability, a local service between Plasencia and Badajoz will start, with 121 EMUs.
WessexEclectic
Member
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Snow1964
Established Member
The EU has proposed an amendment that all Trans Europe Rail routes have to be standard gauge (see amendment 35, clause 38d)
Should mean any new high speed routes will be to standard gauge (not Iberian broad gauge), if they want European money to help build it
Should mean any new high speed routes will be to standard gauge (not Iberian broad gauge), if they want European money to help build it
I'm surprised that wasn't the case before, I thought that was part of the reason why Spain had built it's lines as standard gauge
That's all very well but as both Portugal and Spain use Iberian gauge it would make sense in the meantime to utilise existing routes already serviceable and run on them bi-mode trains capable of running on electric or deisel power.
Just as an aside, as freight still runs across the border on the Guarda route and I'm assuming also on the Badajoz route, why not use those types of freight loco to haul passenger services in the interim? Or is there no spirit of cooperation/appetite for this between CP and RENFE?
nwales58
Member
(Guarda) Vilar Formoso - Salamanca has been closed on the spanish side for upgrading for rather longer than intended, yet another ADIF success. Upgrading also in progress Pampilhosa - Vilar Formoso, don't know how well that is going.
How much Spain<>Portugal rail freight is there in reality at present?
How much Spain<>Portugal rail freight is there in reality at present?
Probably more a case of being led to expect absolute perfection and (unsurprisingly) not finding it. This former German resident (from the times when in the eyes of British visitors and journalists German railways could do no wrong) remembers that yes - it was good - but nowhere near as perfect as it was cracked up to be.
duesselmartin
Established Member
co operaton between CP and RENFE seems to be near to non-existant.
Both Iberian nations seem to live back to back.
nwales58
Member
Back at the start of this thread last August @Giugiaro sums up the situation in post #5.
For CP and RENFE: commercial interest: very low; stock availability (hauled or units): very low.
Politicians' interest: national: sporadic; regional: unrealistic.
On hauled stock the RENFE plan is to eliminate it. Current cascade as far as I understand is:
S-106 Avril units release S-130/S-730 to replace current Talgo sets (and a handful of S-12x) and increase frequencies a little on those routes. Madrid-Badajoz is meant to be 3 x S-730 as soon as available.
Edit: Talgo vehicles presumably for scrap (Trenhotel were recycled into S-107 Avril).
Demand exceeds available stock on the high speed network (OK, improved utilisation would help, even Italy can turn around a Freccia in under an hour at Milan) so new stock is best used there rather than trying to grow Madrid-Lisbon.
No units currently do all the signalling systems needed, though that could change.
RENFE long distance management is preoccupied with the S-106 fiasco plus the Chamartin works throttling paths plus Ouigo and Iryo nicking any traffic growth plus french growth plan politicking. Oh, and regional politicians screaming about failed promises due to all that.
Current reality: Madrid-Lisbon 8-9h cost eur 20-40 by coach, no public subsidy needed.
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Giugiaro
Member
Any possible change to the current status quo will only happen with the advent of high-speed rail in Portugal.
The first of its kind, between Évora and Elvas (Badajoz) should've been in operation since 2020 but has been delayed for a myriad of reasons, which I won't get into.
What's important to know is that Renfe has an Alvia up its sleeve to connect Madrid to Évora as soon as the new railway line is opened, with the extension to Lisbon happening immediately after a CONVEL interpreter for ETCS is certified.
Renfe will not enter Portugal in any other way.
From the point of view of CP, its only issue is the lack of dual-voltage locomotives. Renfe has four dual-voltage Class 252 that CP could buy and integrate into its Class 5600 fleet to extend its InterCity services into Vigo, Salamanca and Cáceres. Considering the political turmoil Portugal got itself into, I don't believe any major strategic move will be pulled by CP anytime soon. Its 2020s enthusiasm for recovering and modernising its fleet of coaches has been almost entirely lost. The company keeps haemorrhaging human resources as people leave the company in search of better pay, especially abroad. The new centre-right government's main solution for the railway is essentially to enact the Portuguese version of the Railways Act of 1993.
The first of its kind, between Évora and Elvas (Badajoz) should've been in operation since 2020 but has been delayed for a myriad of reasons, which I won't get into.
What's important to know is that Renfe has an Alvia up its sleeve to connect Madrid to Évora as soon as the new railway line is opened, with the extension to Lisbon happening immediately after a CONVEL interpreter for ETCS is certified.
Renfe will not enter Portugal in any other way.
From the point of view of CP, its only issue is the lack of dual-voltage locomotives. Renfe has four dual-voltage Class 252 that CP could buy and integrate into its Class 5600 fleet to extend its InterCity services into Vigo, Salamanca and Cáceres. Considering the political turmoil Portugal got itself into, I don't believe any major strategic move will be pulled by CP anytime soon. Its 2020s enthusiasm for recovering and modernising its fleet of coaches has been almost entirely lost. The company keeps haemorrhaging human resources as people leave the company in search of better pay, especially abroad. The new centre-right government's main solution for the railway is essentially to enact the Portuguese version of the Railways Act of 1993.
My mind boggled at this. How long does RENFE take then? At a guess it feels like 30-40 mins is usual in the UK? On a recent (on time) arrival into Kings Cross the cleaners were on before I'd managed to get off!
nwales58
Member
18 hours good enough? 6h Madrid-Algeciras 1515-2115. Set comes back the following day at 1510.
In Galicia turnarounds are 90' to 2h. Badajoz 4h, San Sebastian 4h+ at both ends, Huelva 5.5h (though those may be to give decent commercial times).
At Chamartin terminating Alvia/AVE services seem to vanish off for cleaning rather than turning around rapidly in platform.
Clearly utilisation will never be great for some long cross-country services. Some bits look good, e.g. Madrid-Salamanca Avant services started as positioning/dead time on the daily Salamanca-Barcelona Alvia via the north.