Madrid to Lisbon in 2024 - possible timings if a service were to run

[adamedwards]

Man at Seat 61 has published plans by Renfe to run a train into Spain in 2024 possibly Madrid to Lisbon under open access rules. This depends on the new fast line from Elvas to Evora being completed in December 2024.

This led me to look at what current timings are now and it would apear perfectly feasible to run a train from Madrid to Lisbon and back in a day as soon as the new line opens. Timings could be something like this:

Madrid 0728
Badajoz 1224
Evora 1200 (-1h Portugal time)
Lisbon 1330

(Approx 6 hours running time, with 2 hours allowed for turnaround)

Lisbon 1536
Evora 1706
Badajoz 1836 (+1h Spanish time)
Madrid 2321

This based purely on existing times in the European Timetable plus an assumed Badajoz to Madrid time of 2 hours.
A second train in the evening could run at 1628 arrive Lisbon 2230 and return the next morning at 0836 arrive Madrid 1621.
I've no idea if these timings would stand up to the reality of services on this route, but my experience of Spanish trains at Easter this year suggested most run to time.

Assuming a 6 hour journey is possible, that's on hour faster than the road coaches on the same route. Against air, which takes 1h15 to 1h25, you need to add in 30mins each end travel to/from the airports, plus check in, so say 3h15-3h25. Rail is not competitive, but it will then depend on the price and competition. The rail offer is much simpler as it required no changes (unlike the current rail offer with 2 changes and a vintage railcar!)

Obviously the major constraint would be Renfe getting permission to run a Talgo to Lisbon, staffing and servicing, paths, etc and the time taken to set this up.

I realise this may be too speculative for this section of the forum, so moderators please move to the speculative section if that's the better home for this discussion.

 

[cphilb]

Man at Seat 61 has published plans by Renfe to run a train into Spain in 2024 possibly Madrid to Lisbon under open access rules. This depends on the new fast line from Elvas to Evora being completed in December 2024.

This led me to look at what current timings are now and it would apear perfectly feasible to run a train from Madrid to Lisbon and back in a day as soon as the new line opens. Timings could be something like this:

Madrid 0728
Badajoz 1224
Evora 1200 (-1h Portugal time)
Lisbon 1330

(Approx 6 hours running time, with 2 hours allowed for turnaround)

Lisbon 1536
Evora 1706
Badajoz 1836 (+1h Spanish time)
Madrid 2321

This based purely on existing times in the European Timetable plus an assumed Badajoz to Madrid time of 2 hours.
A second train in the evening could run at 1628 arrive Lisbon 2230 and return the next morning at 0836 arrive Madrid 1621.
I've no idea if these timings would stand up to the reality of services on this route, but my experience of Spanish trains at Easter this year suggested most run to time.

Assuming a 6 hour journey is possible, that's on hour faster than the road coaches on the same route. Against air, which takes 1h15 to 1h25, you need to add in 30mins each end travel to/from the airports, plus check in, so say 3h15-3h25. Rail is not competitive, but it will then depend on the price and competition. The rail offer is much simpler as it required no changes (unlike the current rail offer with 2 changes and a vintage railcar!)

Obviously the major constraint would be Renfe getting permission to run a Talgo to Lisbon, staffing and servicing, paths, etc and the time taken to set this up.

I realise this may be too speculative for this section of the forum, so moderators please move to the speculative section if that's the better home for this discussion.

There has recently been some speculation on this and a route from Galicia too. Another problem, other than paths, is that they have different overhead power systems so a solution would have to be made for this too. If you can understand spanish, there is a recent video on Youtube channel Viajando Contigo about this posted recently. If allowed, I will include a link to the video about this below.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Lisbon to Porto (and on to A Corunna) Is interesting - CP will face some serious competition from RENFE with its more modern stock. Madrid to Porto via Salamanca is a surprise - pity the direct line connecting with the Duoro has been abandoned! Madrid to Badajoz will be speeded up eventually but the route of further high speed sections has yet to be decided - in particular if via Toledo.

 

[adamedwards]

My assumption is Renfe will use Alvia class 730 Talgos with both electric and diesel power cars. They are also able to run on both 3000v DC and 25000v AC, so therefore can run under Portugal's 25kv AC wires as well as both systems in Spain. They will need to use diesel for much of the current route.

My timings are the best I can come up with from December 2023, so the high speed route via Toledo is not needed. Once that is built (2030s) and the high speed route in Portugal then Lisbon to Madrid comes down under 3 hours and the airlines will be destroyed on that route.

 

[Giugiaro]

This is how we cope with the current reality:

 

[Austriantrain]

My assumption is Renfe will use Alvia class 730 Talgos with both electric and diesel power cars. They are also able to run on both 3000v DC and 25000v AC, so therefore can run under Portugal's 25kv AC wires as well as both systems in Spain. They will need to use diesel for much of the current route.

My timings are the best I can come up with from December 2023, so the high speed route via Toledo is not needed. Once that is built (2030s) and the high speed route in Portugal then Lisbon to Madrid comes down under 3 hours and the airlines will be destroyed on that route.

Well, I am looking forward to thenext special report in Today’s Railways - just like the one a couple of months ago - about grandiose plans for Portuguese railways and the reasons why the last plans reported didn’t pan out.

Obviously, I hope for the best - but always end up both amused and slightly annoyed, when in the same issue some letter writers - always Brits - complain about the deficits of Swiss railways…

As it is, through passenger trains via Salamanca and Badajoz to Lisbon could start now (or soon, I am aware of approval and training issues, but none of it is rocket science), as could a better offer between Porto and Vigo… if the will was there (and there never were any rational reasons to stop running those trains in the first place). Although I am pretty sure crazy RENFE has more to do with it than the Portuguese.

 

[nanstallon]

I believe that CP have plans to restore services on the Douro line to Barca d'Alva. It should not be too difficult to reinstate the line from there to Salamanca (junction before then with the line from Guarda). I went over that line in 1971 when there was a through railcar between Porto and Salamanca which was the only passenger service on the line east of Barca d'Alva but RENFE still charged us a supplement for riding on it!

Well, I am looking forward to thenext special report in Today’s Railways - just like the one a couple of months ago - about grandiose plans for Portuguese railways and the reasons why the last plans reported didn’t pan out.

Obviously, I hope for the best - but always end up both amused and slightly annoyed, when in the same issue some letter writers - always Brits - complain about the deficits of Swiss railways…

As it is, through passenger trains via Salamanca and Badajoz to Lisbon could start now (or soon, I am aware of approval and training issues, but none of it is rocket science), as could a better offer between Porto and Vigo… if the will was there (and there never were any rational reasons to stop running those trains in the first place). Although I am pretty sure crazy RENFE has more to do with it than the Portuguese.

Brits moaning about Swiss Railways - really?? Surely a case of the pot calling the plate black.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well, I am looking forward to thenext special report in Today’s Railways - just like the one a couple of months ago - about grandiose plans for Portuguese railways and the reasons why the last plans reported didn’t pan out.

Obviously, I hope for the best - but always end up both amused and slightly annoyed, when in the same issue some letter writers - always Brits - complain about the deficits of Swiss railways…

As it is, through passenger trains via Salamanca and Badajoz to Lisbon could start now (or soon, I am aware of approval and training issues, but none of it is rocket science), as could a better offer between Porto and Vigo… if the will was there (and there never were any rational reasons to stop running those trains in the first place). Although I am pretty sure crazy RENFE has more to do with it than the Portuguese.

Yes - I understand the Hendaye-Lisbon overnight train (which carried Madrid-Lisbon coaches too) disappeared on account of RENFE, even though it stopped the only quick and easy link between Lisbon and anywhere outside the Iberian peninsula.

 

[Austriantrain]

Yes - I understand the Hendaye-Lisbon overnight train (which carried Madrid-Lisbon coaches too) disappeared on account of RENFE, even though it stopped the only quick and easy link between Lisbon and anywhere outside the Iberian peninsula.

I think you are right. And don’t get me wrong - I love Spain and its people, speak the language fluently and go there as often as I can. But I despair about its railway policy (although liberalization has helped) and cannot understand how a country’s inhabitants can put up with it.

Madrid to Badajoz will be speeded up eventually but the route of further high speed sections has yet to be decided - in particular if via Toledo.

Another Spanish absurdity - the route is barely viable as it is, and already bypasses Plasencia and will bypass Mérida in the future. How would one ever have the idea to bypass Toledo as well?

 

[nwales58]

I have tried to split what really is imminent from what seems to be RENFE PR spin for more accurate guesses of what may happen soon. Long, unfortunately. Short version: 1 daily service with a change, not through, whenever Elvas-Evora comes into service.

Future Madrid-Lisbon has many pieces: the Extremadura LAV, Évora-Elvas, RENFE+CAF's Avril fleet disaster and trains equipped to run on non-ETCS lines in Portugal, maybe other problems too.

(For anyone not aware of the full soap opera, because it helps guess what will happen versus local politicians' pipe dreams, Extremadura region population is 1m, with 3/4 big places on rail and a parallel motorway. Elvas is tiny. Many beautiful towns with history but not well-known abroad. A part-new part-upgraded HS alignment from S of Plasencia to Badajoz came into service last year as broad gauge non-electrified. Equivalent to building 150km of HSL to link mid and north Wales, e.g. places the size of Aberystwyth and Bangor/Caernarfon with Shrewsbury. Current service is 1 IC Talgo, 1 Alvia S-730 on diesel throughout and a couple of MDs, about 1000 seats/day which load well, full on Fridays and Sundays)

According to a local newspaper in July, electrification Plasencia-Badajoz will be complete this summer and there will be an Avant service but no frequency is mentioned. I guess this will replace the commuting 0630 Plasencia-Mérida and 2039 return MDs, maybe more in connection with the next changes. Locals will be overjoyed at the time reduction and likely increase from MD to Avant fares.

If Avrils enter service reliably, supposedly now November this year, more S-730s can be cascaded. An additional Alvia can then be introduced. My guess is that will replace one of the middle of the day MDs adding 100+ seats, the one that runs to/from Sevilla currently is often full on the central stretch. Dropping some stops between Madrid and Plasencia implies an additional RE to fill in the stops.

Giugiaro will know what is actually happening on Évora-Elvas. Spanish news thinks works will be complete by the end of 2023. Is that date just the infrastructure or does it include it powered up with functional ETCS all the way from Évora through to the border? Are ADIF ready too? Earlier this year the portuguese PM talked about Badajoz-Lisbon in 1h50 from 2024.

That plus RENFE's PR and the realities of signalling make me think the initial service will mean a change of train in Badajoz or Évora. The S-730s have ETCS level 2 and can run as far as Évora, if ETCS extends into the station. Portuguese 220km/h equipment could get to Badajoz. What are ADIF doing on signalling? Does the new line have ETCS or overlay ETCS yet? Probably not because it will still be used by non-HS trains forever.

Initial international service could therefore resemble the existing Extremadura paths, possibly 0850-ish from Madrid, arriving back at Madrid 1945 or 2200-ish, either existing Badajoz services or extending to exchange passengers with CP at Évora.

Of course a through service could be loco-hauled, but in RENFE thinking IC is retro, Alvia/AVE is the future.

Madrid-Lisbon seems to support 4-6 coaches a day typically, 8h, so the total market for a 6h journey is not vast and is low yield. Regional cross-border public transport services are currently near-useless so a couple of daily Badajoz-Elvas-Évora might attract double-digit traffic. Capturing all the current coach traffic is 1 additional train per day but much would remain on coach for price. Being ultra-optimistic, a journey time elasticity of 1 gives maybe 100-200 passengers per day, not a good loading for a single train with the high running costs of the S-730 and poor utilisation. I haven't bothered with modal shift from car, with these journey times it will not be significant.

Once there are real services we will see.

In Spain open access has brought increases in service levels on high capacity 25kv standard gauge HSLs. A mixed diesel-electric route with multiple signalling systems, 2 rulebooks and languages is definitely not low cost territory. As Austriantrain says, shorter journey times need standard gauge HSL to Madrid which is at least a decade away, it may never happen. The latest Toledo proposal I have heard of is a typical spanish new station 3km out beyond the bypass, this time by a shopping centre.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Yes, the original plan was convert the existing magnificent Toledo station to through running, but it would require extensive tunnelling under the ancient city to the west. Parallelling the classic Badajoz main line instead would be more direct, but Toledo has more traffic potential and takes advantage of the existing Seville high speed line.

 

[nwales58]

I would guess that via Toledo came out much better (or far less bad at least) on cost-benefit, 4-tracking the approach to Madrid is happening anyway.

To be fair to ADIF, the on- and near-line upgrading is plodding along. I think contracts are let between Plasencia and Talayuela (the Castilla-La Mancha/Extremadura boundary). Electrification of the existing line between there and Illescas is out to tender at present. Plasencia probably gets a new station out beyond the motorway. Navalmoral wants the railway put underground or out beyond the bypass (spot the theme).

So there will be more incremental improvements to journey time. But a big reduction needs the new line east of Talavera which is now waiting for yet another study and for everyone in Toledo, Talavera and Torrijos to demand changes yet again.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

As an aside, I see that the old MZA main line to Badajoz from Puertollano is to be electrified - just 2 through trains a day in each direction at present!

 

[Austriantrain]

As an aside, I see that the old MZA main line to Badajoz from Puertollano is to be electrified - just 2 through trains a day in each direction at present!

I think the purpose of electrification is for freight services.

I would guess that via Toledo came out much better (or far less bad at least) on cost-benefit, 4-tracking the approach to Madrid is happening anyway.

To be fair to ADIF, the on- and near-line upgrading is plodding along. I think contracts are let between Plasencia and Talayuela (the Castilla-La Mancha/Extremadura boundary). Electrification of the existing line between there and Illescas is out to tender at present. Plasencia probably gets a new station out beyond the motorway. Navalmoral wants the railway put underground or out beyond the bypass (spot the theme).

So there will be more incremental improvements to journey time. But a big reduction needs the new line east of Talavera which is now waiting for yet another study and for everyone in Toledo, Talavera and Torrijos to demand changes yet again.

The region is so very sparsely settled that out of town stations will not have any own catchment areas, while having to drive out of the city to catch the train will severely reduce its attractiveness even with high speed, especially between medium-sized cities (traffic to/from Madrid is different of course).

And realistically most trains will have to serve most stations anyway if they are to be filled. While I acknowledge the higher cost (but costs are enormous as it is), I lament the missed opportunity to integrate Plasencia and Mérida directly into the main line and would also argue that tunneling under Toledo would be worthwhile to keep the existing station.

Anyway, will take my first trip on the new line in October and very much looking forward to it!

 

[HS2isgood]

The Madrid to Lisbon high-speed rail line, as has been previously mentioned, is divided between many parts, and with lots of complications:

Madrid-Talavera: It's been decided that it'll leave Madrid (population 3.2 million, 6.8 million counting the metro area) in a common trunk with the Andalusia HSR, a reasonable choice as it won't ever attract much traffic by itself. The question is whether to tunnel under Toledo, and Toledo NIMBYs are adamant to not let that happen. Toledo has 84k inhabitants, 131k in the metro area, but it's a decent traffic generator due to its tourism. There's 4 options: tunnel after the current Toledo station, new through station in the eastern neighborhood of Santa María de Benquerencia, keeping the current terminus station for Madrid-Toledo Avant trains, new station in Bargas, a 10k town in the metro area, only for through services, while having Madrid-Toledo trains use the current station, or ignoring Toledo altogether and running non-stop to Talavera. The LD stop in 13k inhabitant Torrijos, and the suburban Madrid stop at Leganés will be dropped.

Talavera-Plasencia: This stretch is relatively uncontroversial. The Talayuela-Plasencia stretch of HSR is opening before Talavera-Talayuela, and HSR will only have stations in 83k Talavera and 17k Navalmoral, both in their current locations. 2k Oropesa de Toledo will lose the LD stop.

Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida: Plasencia is on a spur, which is the remainder of the Monfragüe-Astorga line that closed with the Barón Axe in 1985. Thus, MD trains use Plasencia station and reverse there, and LD trains use Monfragüe, 8 miles from Plasencia, with a bus connection provides. As the opening of Talayuela-Plasencia will bypass Monfragüe station, there's talk about a new station near it to fulfill the "Plasencia Parkway" function. The high-speed line opened between Monfragüe and Mérida, except for the last few miles into Mérida station. Tiny Cañaveral, Mirabel and Casas de Millán were left with just one Cáceres-Madrid service in the classic line, the rest moving into the HSR. Electrification will start being used soon, raising the speed from 180 (730 series)/200 (Talgo) to 250 for the former and still 200 for the Talgos, as the 334 locomotives are diesel-only. The classic line from Mérida to Aljucén near Mérida was closed, an idiotic move which will either cut off Cáceres from Mérida for freight or force the high-speed line to accept freight trains in case any operator starts them. Plasencia is 40k, Cáceres is 96k, Mérida is 60k and all three are very touristy, even though Mérida is the most well-known of the three. Sadly, Mérida requires a reversal to call at it.

Mérida to Badajoz: The high-speed line opened, leaving two parallel lines. Trains serving the tiny stops use the classic line, those that only call at 16k Montijo use the HSR and the small bypass into Montijo station. The electrification situation is the same as for Plasencia-Mérida, but the short spurs both sides of Montijo won't be electrified until Puertollano-Badajoz is.

Badajoz-Évora: The new line is unlikely to be open before 2025, despite Portugal's claims to the contrary. The max speed will be 250 kph, becoming Portugal's first true high-speed line, even though it may be limited to 220 due to the presence of freight. The line will be electric from opening and equipped with ETCS instead of Convel, which is no longer built since a 2016 spat between Bombardier and the Portuguese government.

Évora-Pinhal Novo-Lisbon: This line is actually pretty good, taking 90 minutes from end to end, even less if you cut some stops. The only problem is its circuitous nature near Lisbon, which can only be solved by a Third Tagus Tunnel. Obviously and reasonably, it's not Portugal's priority. The bad side is that it's Convel land so no Renfe stock can run until the whole Convel fiasco is solved.

On electrification: Spain is going to electrify both Puertollano-Badajoz (for freight purposes, not for the sparse DMU service) and Humanes-Talayuela. In the last case the purpose is two-fold. A battery factory is going to be built in Navalmoral, on the condition the line is electrified. It will also help passenger services, and commuter service in the C-5 line will be extended to Illescas on electrification, with no one knows what frequently. The controversial Cáceres lithium mine project is the reason why the classic line into Cáceres from the north isn't closed.

On service plans, Renfe's immediate plan is to remove the Talgo, as they hate loco-hauled stock, and add an extra 730 on its place. In 2024 they want to reach Portugal, which may be done either running a LD train to Abrantes (the line into Abrantes does not have Convel) or, if it's open, by the creation of a twice a day Avant service between Évora and Plasencia. CP only has plans to run some Lisboa-Évora trains to Badajoz. On the other hand, Iryo wants to start a Madrid-Lisbon service but they haven't purchased the S-106 trains yet, delivery will take time, and as S-106 can't run on diesel it's likely they'll start off relying on ALSA Rail traction between Madrid and Monfragüe/Talayuela/Navalmoral.

 

[Austriantrain]

The Madrid to Lisbon high-speed rail line, as has been previously mentioned, is divided between many parts, and with lots of complications:

Madrid-Talavera: It's been decided that it'll leave Madrid (population 3.2 million, 6.8 million counting the metro area) in a common trunk with the Andalusia HSR, a reasonable choice as it won't ever attract much traffic by itself. The question is whether to tunnel under Toledo, and Toledo NIMBYs are adamant to not let that happen. Toledo has 84k inhabitants, 131k in the metro area, but it's a decent traffic generator due to its tourism. There's 4 options: tunnel after the current Toledo station, new through station in the eastern neighborhood of Santa María de Benquerencia, keeping the current terminus station for Madrid-Toledo Avant trains, new station in Bargas, a 10k town in the metro area, only for through services, while having Madrid-Toledo trains use the current station, or ignoring Toledo altogether and running non-stop to Talavera. The LD stop in 13k inhabitant Torrijos, and the suburban Madrid stop at Leganés will be dropped.

Talavera-Plasencia: This stretch is relatively uncontroversial. The Talayuela-Plasencia stretch of HSR is opening before Talavera-Talayuela, and HSR will only have stations in 83k Talavera and 17k Navalmoral, both in their current locations. 2k Oropesa de Toledo will lose the LD stop.

Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida: Plasencia is on a spur, which is the remainder of the Monfragüe-Astorga line that closed with the Barón Axe in 1985. Thus, MD trains use Plasencia station and reverse there, and LD trains use Monfragüe, 8 miles from Plasencia, with a bus connection provides. As the opening of Talayuela-Plasencia will bypass Monfragüe station, there's talk about a new station near it to fulfill the "Plasencia Parkway" function. The high-speed line opened between Monfragüe and Mérida, except for the last few miles into Mérida station. Tiny Cañaveral, Mirabel and Casas de Millán were left with just one Cáceres-Madrid service in the classic line, the rest moving into the HSR. Electrification will start being used soon, raising the speed from 180 (730 series)/200 (Talgo) to 250 for the former and still 200 for the Talgos, as the 334 locomotives are diesel-only. The classic line from Mérida to Aljucén near Mérida was closed, an idiotic move which will either cut off Cáceres from Mérida for freight or force the high-speed line to accept freight trains in case any operator starts them. Plasencia is 40k, Cáceres is 96k, Mérida is 60k and all three are very touristy, even though Mérida is the most well-known of the three. Sadly, Mérida requires a reversal to call at it.

Mérida to Badajoz: The high-speed line opened, leaving two parallel lines. Trains serving the tiny stops use the classic line, those that only call at 16k Montijo use the HSR and the small bypass into Montijo station. The electrification situation is the same as for Plasencia-Mérida, but the short spurs both sides of Montijo won't be electrified until Puertollano-Badajoz is.

Badajoz-Évora: The new line is unlikely to be open before 2025, despite Portugal's claims to the contrary. The max speed will be 250 kph, becoming Portugal's first true high-speed line, even though it may be limited to 220 due to the presence of freight. The line will be electric from opening and equipped with ETCS instead of Convel, which is no longer built since a 2016 spat between Bombardier and the Portuguese government.

Évora-Pinhal Novo-Lisbon: This line is actually pretty good, taking 90 minutes from end to end, even less if you cut some stops. The only problem is its circuitous nature near Lisbon, which can only be solved by a Third Tagus Tunnel. Obviously and reasonably, it's not Portugal's priority. The bad side is that it's Convel land so no Renfe stock can run until the whole Convel fiasco is solved.

On electrification: Spain is going to electrify both Puertollano-Badajoz (for freight purposes, not for the sparse DMU service) and Humanes-Talayuela. In the last case the purpose is two-fold. A battery factory is going to be built in Navalmoral, on the condition the line is electrified. It will also help passenger services, and commuter service in the C-5 line will be extended to Illescas on electrification, with no one knows what frequently. The controversial Cáceres lithium mine project is the reason why the classic line into Cáceres from the north isn't closed.

On service plans, Renfe's immediate plan is to remove the Talgo, as they hate loco-hauled stock, and add an extra 730 on its place. In 2024 they want to reach Portugal, which may be done either running a LD train to Abrantes (the line into Abrantes does not have Convel) or, if it's open, by the creation of a twice a day Avant service between Évora and Plasencia. CP only has plans to run some Lisboa-Évora trains to Badajoz. On the other hand, Iryo wants to start a Madrid-Lisbon service but they haven't purchased the S-106 trains yet, delivery will take time, and as S-106 can't run on diesel it's likely they'll start off relying on ALSA Rail traction between Madrid and Monfragüe/Talayuela/Navalmoral.

Very interesting! Thank you for all the details!

 

[Vespa]

Will route be in Stephenson gauge or Iberian gauge, connectivity to the rest of Europe is very desirable.

 

[nwales58]

Very useful. The Avant plan now makes a lot more sense financially and politically.

The Convel ETCS module was described in IRJ in April this year, I now discover. It is a project for Medway and Alpha Trains by Thales for Stadler locos. As Siemens already have an EBICAB 700 ETCS module approved for Norway and Sweden I was wrong about the risk.

 

[Austriantrain]

The Madrid to Lisbon high-speed rail line, as has been previously mentioned, is divided between many parts, and with lots of complications:

Madrid-Talavera: It's been decided that it'll leave Madrid (population 3.2 million, 6.8 million counting the metro area) in a common trunk with the Andalusia HSR, a reasonable choice as it won't ever attract much traffic by itself. The question is whether to tunnel under Toledo, and Toledo NIMBYs are adamant to not let that happen. Toledo has 84k inhabitants, 131k in the metro area, but it's a decent traffic generator due to its tourism. There's 4 options: tunnel after the current Toledo station, new through station in the eastern neighborhood of Santa María de Benquerencia, keeping the current terminus station for Madrid-Toledo Avant trains, new station in Bargas, a 10k town in the metro area, only for through services, while having Madrid-Toledo trains use the current station, or ignoring Toledo altogether and running non-stop to Talavera. The LD stop in 13k inhabitant Torrijos, and the suburban Madrid stop at Leganés will be dropped.

Talavera-Plasencia: This stretch is relatively uncontroversial. The Talayuela-Plasencia stretch of HSR is opening before Talavera-Talayuela, and HSR will only have stations in 83k Talavera and 17k Navalmoral, both in their current locations. 2k Oropesa de Toledo will lose the LD stop.

Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida: Plasencia is on a spur, which is the remainder of the Monfragüe-Astorga line that closed with the Barón Axe in 1985. Thus, MD trains use Plasencia station and reverse there, and LD trains use Monfragüe, 8 miles from Plasencia, with a bus connection provides. As the opening of Talayuela-Plasencia will bypass Monfragüe station, there's talk about a new station near it to fulfill the "Plasencia Parkway" function. The high-speed line opened between Monfragüe and Mérida, except for the last few miles into Mérida station. Tiny Cañaveral, Mirabel and Casas de Millán were left with just one Cáceres-Madrid service in the classic line, the rest moving into the HSR. Electrification will start being used soon, raising the speed from 180 (730 series)/200 (Talgo) to 250 for the former and still 200 for the Talgos, as the 334 locomotives are diesel-only. The classic line from Mérida to Aljucén near Mérida was closed, an idiotic move which will either cut off Cáceres from Mérida for freight or force the high-speed line to accept freight trains in case any operator starts them. Plasencia is 40k, Cáceres is 96k, Mérida is 60k and all three are very touristy, even though Mérida is the most well-known of the three. Sadly, Mérida requires a reversal to call at it.

Mérida to Badajoz: The high-speed line opened, leaving two parallel lines. Trains serving the tiny stops use the classic line, those that only call at 16k Montijo use the HSR and the small bypass into Montijo station. The electrification situation is the same as for Plasencia-Mérida, but the short spurs both sides of Montijo won't be electrified until Puertollano-Badajoz is.

Badajoz-Évora: The new line is unlikely to be open before 2025, despite Portugal's claims to the contrary. The max speed will be 250 kph, becoming Portugal's first true high-speed line, even though it may be limited to 220 due to the presence of freight. The line will be electric from opening and equipped with ETCS instead of Convel, which is no longer built since a 2016 spat between Bombardier and the Portuguese government.

Évora-Pinhal Novo-Lisbon: This line is actually pretty good, taking 90 minutes from end to end, even less if you cut some stops. The only problem is its circuitous nature near Lisbon, which can only be solved by a Third Tagus Tunnel. Obviously and reasonably, it's not Portugal's priority. The bad side is that it's Convel land so no Renfe stock can run until the whole Convel fiasco is solved.

On electrification: Spain is going to electrify both Puertollano-Badajoz (for freight purposes, not for the sparse DMU service) and Humanes-Talayuela. In the last case the purpose is two-fold. A battery factory is going to be built in Navalmoral, on the condition the line is electrified. It will also help passenger services, and commuter service in the C-5 line will be extended to Illescas on electrification, with no one knows what frequently. The controversial Cáceres lithium mine project is the reason why the classic line into Cáceres from the north isn't closed.

On service plans, Renfe's immediate plan is to remove the Talgo, as they hate loco-hauled stock, and add an extra 730 on its place. In 2024 they want to reach Portugal, which may be done either running a LD train to Abrantes (the line into Abrantes does not have Convel) or, if it's open, by the creation of a twice a day Avant service between Évora and Plasencia. CP only has plans to run some Lisboa-Évora trains to Badajoz. On the other hand, Iryo wants to start a Madrid-Lisbon service but they haven't purchased the S-106 trains yet, delivery will take time, and as S-106 can't run on diesel it's likely they'll start off relying on ALSA Rail traction between Madrid and Monfragüe/Talayuela/Navalmoral.

Another question: where do the 730 currently run? One daily return to Badajoz, one to Algeciras, 1 to Lugo and 2 to Ferrol, which would mean 5 sets (out of 14)? Where else?

Thank you!!

Very useful. The Avant plan now makes a lot more sense financially and politically.

Does it? It seems like just another Spanish HSL with a very deficient timetable, and I doubt competition will really help here, since the market is small and not likely to yield much demand to offer more than a couple of competitive services.

It is all very well to spend billions to build new railways even in peripheral regions (there is a lot of political sense in it) but it’s useless unless enough trains run on it. What is needed is a PSO (public service obligation) service.

 

[HS2isgood]

Another question: where do the 730 currently run? One daily return to Badajoz, one to Algeciras, 1 to Lugo and 2 to Ferrol, which would mean 5 sets (out of 14)? Where else?

Thank you!!



Does it? It seems like just another Spanish HSL with a very deficient timetable, and I doubt competition will really help here, since the market is small and not likely to yield much demand to offer more than a couple of competitive services.

It is all very well to spend billions to build new railways even in peripheral regions (there is a lot of political sense in it) but it’s useless unless enough trains run on it. What is needed is a PSO (public service obligation) service.

The 730 now spend most of their time substituting for 130s. Madrid to Vigo and Coruña is very often 730s, and they sometimes run to Asturias. The braindead timetable means that Lugo requires two sets, not one. Even though Ourense-Lugo is bustituted for Ourense-Monforte switch from 3 kV DC to 25 kV AC.

New 730 services are going to be created, like Madrid-Zaragoza-Teruel, replacement of the Talgo VI by a second Madrid-Badajoz, Madrid-Granada-Almería or Madrid-Algeciras, replacing a Talgo VI too. Of course any service to Lisbon will have to be 730.

 

[Austriantrain]

The 730 now spend most of their time substituting for 130s. Madrid to Vigo and Coruña is very often 730s, and they sometimes run to Asturias. The braindead timetable means that Lugo requires two sets, not one. Even though Ourense-Lugo is bustituted for Ourense-Monforte switch from 3 kV DC to 25 kV AC.

New 730 services are going to be created, like Madrid-Zaragoza-Teruel, replacement of the Talgo VI by a second Madrid-Badajoz, Madrid-Granada-Almería or Madrid-Algeciras, replacing a Talgo VI too. Of course any service to Lisbon will have to be 730.

Thank you. I suppose that the Vigo/A Coruña routes will be the first to be switched to the 106 once they are approved?

Let’s see how a decent rail company (I.e. not RENFE) could use the 14 sets then:

Since Madrid - Teruel seems to be a solution looking for a problem, let’s suppose:
- 1 Lugo with an adapted timetable
- 2 Ferrol
- optimistically 2 Algeciras (or 1 Algeciras, 1 Almería, even though the latter doesn’t seem to be much fastwr than the current Talgo over the classic line)
- equally optimistically 2 Abrantes for connections to Lisbon
… which would still leave 5 sets for a two-hourly Madrid - Badajoz and 2 sets in reserve.

Of course, if Lisbon could be reached without change at some point, more sets would be needed, since an out-and-back in the same day looks optimistic (but if a 6 hour journey time was achieved, possible).

 

[HS2isgood]

Thank you. I suppose that the Vigo/A Coruña routes will be the first to be switched to the 106 once they are approved?

Let’s see how a decent rail company (I.e. not RENFE) could use the 14 sets then:

Since Madrid - Teruel seems to be a solution looking for a problem, let’s suppose:
- 1 Lugo with an adapted timetable
- 2 Ferrol
- optimistically 2 Algeciras
- equally optimistically 2 Abrantes for connections to Lisbon
… which would still leave 5 sets for a two-hourly Madrid - Badajoz and 2 sets in reserve.

Of course, if Lisbon could be reached without change at some point, more sets would be needed, since an out-and-back in the same day looks optimistic (but if a 6 hour journey time was achieved, possible, and if those trains then run via Badajoz, they would take over existing domestic services).

What really should be done is converting some 730s back to electric-only 130s imho.

 

[Austriantrain]

What really should be done is converting some 730s back to electric-only 130s imho.

Does not seem very useful to me, since 730 can substitute for 130 anyway and the flexibility and possibility of service expansion on partially-electrified lines get lost.

Obviously in the longer term, everything should (and will) be 100% electric. In the meantime, I‘d rather see the 730s used to improve the timetable.

 

[HS2isgood]

Does not seem very useful to me, since 730 can substitute for 130 anyway and the flexibility and possibility of service expansion on partially-electrified lines get lost.

Obviously in the longer term, everything should (and will) be 100% electric. In the meantime, I‘d rather see the 730s used to improve the timetable.

Yeah but remember everything will be electrified soon. This is Spain, not the UK, we do infrastructure well and service awfully. Even though the electrification plan is going really slowly, everything relevant to LD service should be electric in 5-7 years.

 

[BahrainLad]

Interesting updates, thank you. A small point: I believe the third Tagus crossing is proposed to be (another) bridge. I don’t think tunnelling is technically feasible.

 

[Austriantrain]

Yeah but remember everything will be electrified soon. This is Spain, not the UK, we do infrastructure well and service awfully. Even though the electrification plan is going really slowly, everything relevant to LD service should be electric in 5-7 years.

That’s what I meant: in the longer term, the 730 won’t be needed anymore.

But in the meantime, better use them for the purpose they were built for, in my opinion.

 

[Giugiaro]

I don’t think tunnelling is technically feasible.

It's technically feasible, but unaffordable for PT standards.

This third connection has been under discussion since 2008.
It has since been in limbo for several reasons, including the position of the new Lisbon Airport and the rights of way that should be included in the bridge, with their respective associated costs.

So far rail seems to be preferred over road in terms of priority for the TTT, as this new bridge should create a much faster and straighter connection to the Poceirão triangle compared to the April 25 Bridge.

 

[HS2isgood]

It's technically feasible, but unaffordable for PT standards.

This third connection has been under discussion since 2008.
It has since been in limbo for several reasons, including the position of the new Lisbon Airport and the rights of way that should be included in the bridge, with their respective associated costs.

So far rail seems to be preferred over road in terms of priority for the TTT, as this new bridge should create a much faster and straighter connection to the Poceirão triangle compared to the April 25 Bridge.

Yeah, Porto-Lisbon is the actual priority. Is TTT or Vigo-Braga-Porto more important? (Also hi you probably know me by Poltea lol)

 

[Giugiaro]

The TTT could be an integral part of LGV Lisbon-Porto if the new Lisbon Airport is to be built in the Samora Correia area.

 

[nwales58]

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