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Where else in the UK could tramways/light rail be installed?

daodao

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That is at the very least debatable.
Manchester type tram infrastructure has proven capable of absorbing 30 trams per hour per direction, and using double (or triple) length trams it could swallow up the majority of the Oxford Road traffic comparatively easily. With standing a double tram formation has ~400 passengers, or about the licenced capacity of four double deck buses. Using triples it would be something like six.

You'd need a turnback at the northern end of the line because through running would be incapable of absorbing them all, but it could be done.

The status quo is hardly good after all.

EDIT:
The new Tyne and Wear Metro stock, whilst not actually a tram, is similar in many respects (width, length, floor height etc) to a double Metrolink tram and is rated for 600 passengers. Albeit that number is almost entirely standees thanks to the pure longitudinal seating arrangement adopted. But in summary I'm not sure its reasonable to say a tram line in Oxford Road could not handle the bus traffic.
The problem with a tramway along Wilmslow Road is because of the high pedestrian traffic in Rusholme ("the Khyber pass" or "curry mile"), particularly on Friday/Saturday evenings when bus routes are already diverted away from it, and the narrowness of the road through Withington village, with no good diversion routes for other vehicular traffic to bypass it. A tram service would be ideal with coping with the passenger flow, even the higher flow during university terms.
 
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Mgameing123

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If you put a coastal tram on Brighton, I fear that Volks' Railway will struggle, plus people in better-off Hove may complain about obstructing their sea views
Just use ground level supply tracks like the ones Bordeaux. Volks' Railway is a tourist attraction known to be the oldest electric train in the world so I think it will do fine.
 

Vespa

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There have been numerous plans for a Glasgow area metro system similar to the Manchester idea with existing heavy rail routes being converted to light rail with on street city centre running, and a new link from the city to the airport. Latest proposals are outlined here https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/glasgow-tenders-20m-opportunity-for-consultancy-partners-on-15bn-clyde-metro-proposals-28-02-2024/#:~:text=Current Clyde Metro proposals will,take up to 30 years.
Glasgow subway worked well with the tramway when it was running, since closure the subway worked in isolation and the area above have changed with some parts having no residents, others the character of the area have changed essentially going from nowhere to nowhere, it's still useful for the Rangers football ground, shopping centre and some museums other than that not much.

Since there's no serious plans for expansion, it would work best with a new tramway and realise its potential.
 

Arkeeos

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Oxford Road in Manchester is frequently suggested by enthusiasts as a possible tram route but the demand on corridor is simply too high for a tram system to cope.
A tram route has more capacity than a bus route, though, that’s the purpose of trams.

Probably around double the pph (and that’s being generous by calling it a brt)

 

Mgameing123

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It might help but it won't save us from the UK obsession with double deckers with a single narrow staircase.

I'm not convinced any road based public transport solution can ever be truly attractive to the population.
A good solution would be to make a bus simular to the NB4L. perhaps make the stairways one way to get the best passenger flow? The bus needs 3 full doors.
 

HSTEd

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The problem with a tramway along Wilmslow Road is because of the high pedestrian traffic in Rusholme ("the Khyber pass" or "curry mile"), particularly on Friday/Saturday evenings when bus routes are already diverted away from it, and the narrowness of the road through Withington village, with no good diversion routes for other vehicular traffic to bypass it. A tram service would be ideal with coping with the passenger flow, even the higher flow during university terms.
Living near the corridor as I do I have spent an awful lot of time considering this problem.

It's not an easy problem to solve, which is why personally I tend towards an urban ropeway solution to the Oxford Road challenge.

It's only 800m but there is no easy way through, its very tightly packed.
Might be necessary to split the north-south tracks with the only one taking Hathersage Road over to Birchfields Road, before rendevousing in a loop at Fallowfield.

South of there the traffic density on the tram route would obviously be far lower.
 

The exile

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You'd need a turnback at the northern end of the line because through running would be incapable of absorbing them all, but it could be done.
Or further city centre infrastructure. The Manchester network has reached a size where there should be no single points of failure in the centre. That’s be expensive, though!
 

zwk500

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If you put a coastal tram on Brighton, I fear that Volks' Railway will struggle, plus people in better-off Hove may complain about obstructing their sea views
Volk's Electric Railway offers no meaningful public transport option in Brighton. A modern tram system would make no difference.

As for complaints from the great and good of Hove - the lamposts on the seafront are as visually intrusive as any tram OLE is likely to be, even if you didn't go for a Bordeaux APS style solution. And if you are offering people a tram that is faster and quieter than a bus and cheaper and more convenient than the mainline train I think most people would not complain too loudly about the views. The town's largely on a hill anyway, the number of people who'd be able to see the tram line considering the amount of higher-story flats in Hove would be fairly small.

the Brighton-Hove-Shoreham conurbation as a largely linear urban space with a major centre and several minor centres is, on the face of it, very well suited to trams.
 

Chester1

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That is at the very least debatable.
Manchester type tram infrastructure has proven capable of absorbing 30 trams per hour per direction, and using double (or triple) length trams it could swallow up the majority of the Oxford Road traffic comparatively easily. With standing a double tram formation has ~400 passengers, or about the licenced capacity of four double deck buses. Using triples it would be something like six.

You'd need a turnback at the northern end of the line because through running would be incapable of absorbing them all, but it could be done.

The status quo is hardly good after all.

Yes you could run 30tph of double sets but dumping everyone at St Peter's Square or another city centre location is not a good idea. The status quo handles the passenger demand and means a wide variety of destinations north and south of the corridor can be served. The main thing it needs is electric buses.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Swansea to Oystermouth. Plenty of room to build a line along the seafront.

There's certainly demand for it plus it also have a tourist factor.

Add on sections to Neath via Port Tennant , Briton Ferry to the station (maybe beyond eventually) - and a bit of crayonning to get a route up the Swansea Valley to at least Pontardawe.

Prime commuting and not just to the center either.

The name "Swansea Improvements and Tramway Co." could be restored.
 

Tayway

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Aberdeen is probably just about big enough to work – one line linking the two universities with the city centre, and another linking the airport with the south of the city via the hospital and the city centre. This is currently proposed for a bus rapid transit scheme, so it would be a logical extension, and both routes run along fairly wide streets for the most part with plenty of current demand.
 

HSTEd

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Yes you could run 30tph of double sets but dumping everyone at St Peter's Square or another city centre location is not a good idea. The status quo handles the passenger demand and means a wide variety of destinations north and south of the corridor can be served. The main thing it needs is electric buses.
The vast majority of the traffic on the corridor is contained on the corridor itself or gets dumped a single location in the city centre.

A very large fraction of the buses on the corridor run to Piccadilly Gardens as it is.
The 8x buses, the 111, the 42/43 and 142/143 buses. Beyond that there is the 147 which ends up within a few hundred metres of Picadilly Gardens.

There are many routes that don't, but are operating at rather low density.
A substantial fraction of all the buses on the corridor are electric already, but that doesn't solve any of their fundamental limitations.
 
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Vespa

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A good solution would be to make a bus simular to the NB4L. perhaps make the stairways one way to get the best passenger flow? The bus needs 3 full doors.

When you say NB4L ? You mean Boris bus aka new routemaster which has two staircases and three doors.

Khan cancelled the bus project in act of political spite as soon as he got into office.
 

daodao

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Boris bus aka new routemaster has two staircases and three doors.
Outside London and a few busy corridors in some large cities, double-deck buses are unnecessary for the level of traffic demand. They aren't needed in most of South Manchester and the North Cheshire suburban areas other than the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road/Palatine Road corridor as far south as the former West Didsbury first-generation tram terminus. However. trams are worth considering In the few places where there is a current double deck bus service more than every 10 minutes and no parallel rail corridor.
 

Mgameing123

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When you say NB4L ? You mean Boris bus aka new routemaster which has two staircases and three doors.

Khan cancelled the bus project in act of political spite as soon as he got into office.
Yes NB4L is what bus enthusiasts call it. They are good design in terms of passenger flow but I know they have terrible reliability. But there are alot more options that are simular to the NB4L but more reliable.

Outside London and a few busy corridors in some large cities, double-deck buses are unnecessary for the level of traffic demand. They aren't needed in most of South Manchester and the North Cheshire suburban areas other than the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road/Palatine Road corridor as far south as the former West Didsbury first-generation tram terminus. However. trams are worth considering In the few places where there is a current double deck bus service more than every 10 minutes and no parallel rail corridor.
Depends. Even with parallel rail connections trams can still end up as necessary. Double deckers might be used on the routes where "its not needed" where rush hour demand is high.
 

daodao

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Depends. Even with parallel rail connections trams can still end up as necessary. Double deckers might be used on the routes where "its not needed" where rush hour demand is high.
Post-covid, "rush hours" for workers are much less noticeable - it is school traffic at 8-9 am and 3-4 pm that now seems to cause the most congestion. The large numbers of rush hour extras (typically with an "x" suffix locally) and rush hour only routes that used to run 40+ years ago have nearly all disappeared, and service frequencies are generally no longer enhanced at former "peak hours", schools traffic excepted.
 

Mgameing123

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Post-covid, "rush hours" for workers are much less noticeable - it is school traffic at 8-9 am and 3-4 pm that now seems to cause the most congestion. The large numbers of rush hour extras (typically with an "x" suffix locally) and rush hour only routes that used to run 40+ years ago have nearly all disappeared, and service frequencies are generally no longer enhanced at former "peak hours", schools traffic excepted.
Welcome to what happens when you deregulate the buses.
 

AM9

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Yes, but they don't thread their way through the narrow medieval streets of central Florence. They fan out from the main (Santa Maria Novella) railway station and run along the wide and fairly straight peripheral boulevards.
Well compare them with the line(s) on the Santa Cruz system in Tenerife. The main streets up through the city are similar to those in many UK cities and using a couple of single track sections, quite a frequent service is run. It's only in the upper reaches near La Laguna centre that much wider roads have been built.
 

Vespa

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He cancelled it because it was an extremely expensive vanity project
Still spite as Khan doesn't want to be overshadowed by Boris.

£50,000 more than regular buses because it has two staircases and three doors which regular buses don't have.
 

Kingston Dan

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Aberdeen is probably just about big enough to work – one line linking the two universities with the city centre, and another linking the airport with the south of the city via the hospital and the city centre. This is currently proposed for a bus rapid transit scheme, so it would be a logical extension, and both routes run along fairly wide streets for the most part with plenty of current demand.
If Aberdeen was on continental Europe it would already have an extensive modern surface tram network and be developing a city centre underground solution to increase its capacity.
 

JGurney

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Outside London and a few busy corridors in some large cities, double-deck buses are unnecessary for the level of traffic demand.
They are certainly needed on the mainly rural X93/X94 between Middlesbrough and Scarborough between March and October. On the odd occasions when a single decker is used it frequently results in significant numbers standing, sometimes for over an hour.
The X4 Middlesbrough to Whitby can also get heavily loaded despite the service frequency bring doubled to half-hourly a few years ago (it is restricted to single deckers by low bridges). Two weeks ago I was on one which left Whitby Bus Station full with several people left behind having been refused boarding.

During the summer season I have also known the double deckers on the routes connecting Swanage to Bournemouth and Poole to get full and standing.
 

DJ_K666

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I have often thought that trams would work well in Brighton - a route from the universities into the centre and then west into Hove and beyond - lots of dense housing, and mostly unusually wide streets
And to the Marina.

Maybe towards Shoreham using the coast road and up towards Steyning* too.

* I know the A283 can be nightmarish at times,

Coventry is getting trams, marketed as 'Very Light Rail'

To me, Light Rail is Colonel Stephens. What's referred to as Light rail nowadays is just tramways under some kind of boardroom brainstorming buzzword.

Nearly everywhere outside London, buses are slow, even when not held up in traffic, because of our attachment to vehicles with just a single door for boarding and alighting and the need for all passengers to have some interaction with the driver. A change to dual-door vehicles and 100% off-bus ticketing would bring about improvement in journey times but this could be cancelled out by increasing traffic congestion.
Brighton and Hove returned to using double door buses in my final couple of years there. They do take a bit of getting used to* but they're much quicker to load and unload.

*Thd number of times I hit the wrong button znd opened the cream doors instead of closing the front ones will not be mentioned here...
 
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Trainlog

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Nearly everywhere outside London, buses are slow, even when not held up in traffic, because of our attachment to vehicles with just a single door for boarding and alighting and the need for all passengers to have some interaction with the driver. A change to dual-door vehicles and 100% off-bus ticketing would bring about improvement in journey times but this could be cancelled out by increasing traffic congestion.
As much as I have benefitted from the £2 bus cap, it has made boarding a much slower process as everyone awkwardly asks for single tickets rather than scanning a QR code, plus the wait for everyone that needs to get off first.

I would definitely welcome double doors. I'm not too sure about off-bus ticketing, as I wouldn't want to pay for a bus that isn't guaranteed to arrive. If the £2 bus cap did become permanent, I would like the TFL style of ticketing with a tap-in pad for contactless with a daily fare cap or a local area Oyster card equivalent.
 

I'm here now

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Here's my full idea. It's quite long so hesitated to post the 'detailed ' version.

Phase 1
Phase 1 is intended as a fast-to-implement route with high speeds to compete with blue bell hill or other routes for road drivers between Maidstone and Medway. It also gives fast connection to Chatham Docks and links to existing major stations at Strood and Gillingham in north, and uses the maidstone town centre dual carriageway loop for a wide catchment in the south. P&R could be added at Aylesford and where the railway passes under the M2.

Phase 1 key route is the existing railway from Strood to Maidstone via Snodland. That takes 24 minutes currently and has spare capacity. In future perhaps some passing loops at stations could be added to avoid less popular stations, noting some trains on this route go all the way to st pancras

Phase 2: Maidstone end would be a loop around the town centre. Maidstone west station to be slightly north (or new tram-only platforms connecting to existing station), between A20 and Buckland Road. Note this triangle of land also bounded by st peter's street could be redeveloped for mixed uses, as well as other ground-level car parks nearby, to help fund the system. The major roads around the town centre cut it off from the other areas. Radial bus routes into maidstone from the south and east would be able to connect to the new tram-train route without entering the centre itself. The line from Maidstone East also appears lightly-used enough to allow trams to run there before reconnecting near Maidstone Barracks.


3. From Strood, there should be a station somewhere in Medway City Estate. Keeping on periphery reduces the time penalty from going deeper into it. Obviously some trade off there.

a. Medway tunnel looks wide and tall enough to accomodate overhead wires and avoid need to battery-hybrid trams.

b. 3 stations at near Chatham docks are actually ~600m spaced, with is a good distance from a tram route. Note I am not proposing for it to go into Chatham itself. That is because this route is targeting slightly longer-distance travellers so speed is of the essence to compete with cars, and sticking to mostly dual carriageway reduces cost. There's nothing to stop this in future.

c. From Pier road there is a former railway alignment (some still with single track sections) parallel to Rosebery road which could be used to connect to Gillingham station. Admittedly that is pretty overgrown with trees but if there were enough objections then maybe it could be a (costly) cut and cover with new pedestrian/cycle path above the tram route.

d. Note the land to north and east of the existing station is mostly carpark, perfect for development and gives some choice on tram route to the station (or if a loop is needed to avoid need for double-ended trams).

e. That is the end of Phase 1! There are connections to existing railway at Strood and Gillingham. I don't think there is capacity for tram-trains to run between Strood and Gillingham via Rochester and Chatham.

(as an aside, I love the idea of a cable car from Rochester station to the southern end of Medway City estate, which could be redeveloped along the southern riverfront while keeping the industrial businesses in the middle. There could be a 3rd station/stop in The Historic Dockyard. This kind of obstacle with existing quality rail transport is the perfect situation for a cable car to be successful, serving tourists, students, and commuters. Anyway, back to the trams!)

Phase 2
Phase 2 is basically the P&R loop (for M2) making very little use of existing railway alignment. Its purpose to reduce the number of private vehicles entering into the town centres, and should be built with transit-oriented-development in mind, particularly making use of existing car parks. The eastern section (via gillingham business park) is much more straightforward than the Western (blue bell to rochester) end. An alternative could be following the A2 straight through the towncentres, but that does less to keep drivers from driving into Medway and is more duplicative of existing railway. A2 could either be a future phase or a well-connected bus route.

1. Phase 2 either starts at Gillingham station if there is capacity to run part-way to Rainham on existing rail alignment (noting some london services terminate at gillingham). If not then it would branch off from Phase 1 at the Pier Road Asda and follow the dual carriage way around to a station near corner of Yokosuka way and beechings way.
a. station near Gillingham business park, which is big enough that could even warrant have 2 stations at either end!
b. then on intermediate station before serving a P&R off the M2.


2. The next section follows the M2 to Blue bell hill, where there would be another P&R. The M2 median is wide enough to support an elevated bit of track, but I don't know if that would be any cheaper than cutting down some trees, and an intermediate stop at Lordswood would also be useful. Same logic for the P&R in Blue Bell Hill on south side of M2 - going over/under the motorway twice might be more cost than benefit vs staying on north side.

3. The route then follows the A229 into Rochester town centre. A portion of this could be split directionally with St williams way (see arrows below), or just one of those given over more fully to the tram priority (maybe access only?). THere are some greenfields and highway verges to help.
      a. one stop at southern end of rochester high street, and another near the existing station. Note the surface-level car parks should be removed given the P&R opportunities, this allows for transport-oriented development and improves speed + competitiveness of the tram route.
      b. The line shows a crossing on the historic rochester bridge. Perhaps that isn't feasible, in which case a new bridge would be needed. This is a major road bottleneck and I would personally have no misgivings of handing the capacity over to public transport. Tram route could be shared with bus priority lanes. Voters may disagree.
Should also use the grain branch for P&Rs and new development potential. Southampton should also use the Fawley branch as part of a tram train service.
 

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