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Differences in the adoption of 'bogie' coaches between the UK and USA

mike57

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Without having any hard evidence it appears to me that USA railways had 'bogie' coaches almost from the start, whereas in the UK 4 and 6 wheel rigid coaches persisted for many years.

So why was the bogie coach slow to be adopted in the UK. Was it 'we have always done it this way' or were there good technical reasons?
 
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Big Jumby 74

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Could it be that in the 'brave new world' (Canada/US) in the late 19th century, many of those who came from UK/Europe (including some of my own family) were keen to ditch the old habits (eg: 'we have always done it this way' etc) and instead engaged with what we today might call 'best practice', taken from around the world. But also, the vast distances covered, would require carriages with better comfort levels, which bogie cars will give in spades over any rigid 4/6 wheeler. One of my family was employed on the RR, in Chicago I think, must take another look at that/him, see if I can find more detail. Thank you for reminding me!
 

Rescars

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I'd guess that bogie stock is more tolerant of track imperfections and curvature, which might have suited early American permanent way rather better. Small four wheeiers in particular would have been easier to shunt - by hand if necessary. In the early days, carriages were switched and remarshalled using turntables. This would only be practical with shorter vehicles. What impact did continuous braking have on carriage design and the adoption of bogies, I wonder?
 

Krokodil

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Bogie coaches started becoming adopted in the UK in the 1870s so I don't think that we were particularly far behind. The retention of old four-wheeled coaches for secondary use doesn't mean that bogies weren't the norm for new stock. Contrast with many European railways where four-wheeled coaches seem to have lasted far longer.

Wagon-wise, we were much slower to modernise. But that had a lot to do with the stubborn owners of collieries and ports who didn't want to modernise their equipment, nor replace aging private owner wagons.
 

Krokodil

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Going by a list of preserved vehicles (not a scientific method given that there may be reasons why certain types of vehicle were more likely to survive than others), the balance tipped around the mid-1890s. I suppose that costs had a lot to do with it, plus the fact that British permanent way was often better than that in the US. Many European railways seem to have persisted with four-wheeled vehicles for far longer, certainly going by my experiences of preserved rolling stock - end verandahs also survived quite a long time despite being mostly confined to light railway/tramway operations in the UK.
 

Big Jumby 74

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In the early days, carriages were switched and remarshalled using turntables.
This was particularly the case at London Waterloo from it's inception in 1848 until I believe the 1880's rebuild. The original Main Line station, heading towards Waterloo (East) and The City (as was the intention), roughly along the lines of todays platforms 8-11 give or take, had a multitude of mini turntables, off the top of my head, thirty something all told. The very last to be removed being below the Crows Nest signal box on the Main Line departure road (as was), roughly where todays plat 8/9 is. I would have loved to have been there to watch the operations that took place in comparison to the scene as I knew it. Where did I put my Tardis.....:lol:..?
 

edwin_m

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Could it be that in the 'brave new world' (Canada/US) in the late 19th century, many of those who came from UK/Europe (including some of my own family) were keen to ditch the old habits (eg: 'we have always done it this way' etc) and instead engaged with what we today might call 'best practice', taken from around the world. But also, the vast distances covered, would require carriages with better comfort levels, which bogie cars will give in spades over any rigid 4/6 wheeler. One of my family was employed on the RR, in Chicago I think, must take another look at that/him, see if I can find more detail. Thank you for reminding me!
The oldest road in the US, the Baltimore and Ohio, started in 1830 so the UK would have been the "best" or "only" practice at the time. Certainly later in the century North America came up with many innovations and some spread back to Europe, but I think these would have been home-grown rather than imported from a third country.
 

Taunton

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I'd guess that bogie stock is more tolerant of track imperfections and curvature, which might have suited early American permanent way rather better.
Along those lines. USA routes in comparison typically had notably infrequent services, were longer, and had cheaper construction. Even the pioneer Union Pacific transcontinental line initially laid long sections directly on the ground without ballast. So the investment went into the (few) coaches more than the (lengthy) track.

It's something that continues to this day. British vehicles on much USA track would probably derail every day. Seeing a USA freight come along an infrequently used branch can look like a ship at sea. But it rolls along.

Even in recent years there have been continuing difficulties with UK bogies. The best riding from BR days was probably the Commonwealth. That's a USA design (Commonwealth Steel of St. Louis).
 

Ken H

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Going back to track - which has a bearing on vehicle suspension - didnt UU railroads make track by using a tree trunk cut in half longtudinally and then nailing the flat bottomed rails to that. In the UK we did it differently, often using longditudinal timbers with bracing to maintain gague. Think the GWR did that.
Probably to do with unsprung weight. Tank engines punished the track I think.
Maybe 19th century track is a different thread?
 

Rescars

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This was particularly the case at London Waterloo from it's inception in 1848 until I believe the 1880's rebuild. The original Main Line station, heading towards Waterloo (East) and The City (as was the intention), roughly along the lines of todays platforms 8-11 give or take, had a multitude of mini turntables, off the top of my head, thirty something all told. The very last to be removed being below the Crows Nest signal box on the Main Line departure road (as was), roughly where todays plat 8/9 is. I would have loved to have been there to watch the operations that took place in comparison to the scene as I knew it. Where did I put my Tardis.....:lol:..?
IIRC the transepts in Paddington's roof were aligned to cover the turntables and transverse rails used to move carriages from the arrival to the departure platforms. I think the GWR was the first line to use 8 wheeled carriages, but I don't think these had bogies. Can I borrow your Tardis please?:)
 

norbitonflyer

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Apparently the first bogie coaches in the UK were on the Festiniog Railway, in 1872 - three years after its first double-bogie (Fairlie) locomotive.
 

Dr Hoo

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(Recognising that this thread is strictly about bogie coaches rather than bogies in general.)

I was struck by a look in my reprint of Wishaw's Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, originally published in 1842 and with some pretensions of being a standard and comprehensive reference work. This includes description of all extant 'main line' railways, their technical parameters and equipment, with numerous technical drawings.

The only illustration of a 'bogie' is the pivoting pony truck of a Birmingham & Gloucester Railway locomotive that we might characterise as a 4-2-0. The detailed description of the B&GR states that 8 locomotives were supplied a Mr Norris, of Philadelphia and has to explain what the 'novel' concept of a bogie is and how it works.

So it certainly seems to me that the Americans 'gave us' the concept of bogies.
 

Taunton

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There must have been an advantage reason why several railways with 4-wheel coaches in the earlier 20th century took the bodies of two of them and mounted them on a bogie underframe.
 

Irascible

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Even in recent years there have been continuing difficulties with UK bogies. The best riding from BR days was probably the Commonwealth. That's a USA design (Commonwealth Steel of St. Louis).

Would debate it's better than a B4, although most of my experience on those would have been on well maintained ( at the time ) HST routes.

US passenger cars were generally *extremely* heavy. Also worth noting we did build a fair number of rigid frame 4 axle carriages which just superficially looked like they had bogies.
 

randyrippley

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There must have been an advantage reason why several railways with 4-wheel coaches in the earlier 20th century took the bodies of two of them and mounted them on a bogie underframe.
generally replacing rotted out wooden underframes with iron/steel
the replacement had to be done anyway, and building the longer underframe was more cost effective
 

Snow1964

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The 3 significant changes in US appear to be

mid 1830s the 4wheel truck introduced (what we call a bogie)
1868 when Major Eli H. Janney introduced the knuckle-coupler replacing the deadly link-and-pin system that often resulted in the maiming of limbs and fingers
1869 with the air-brake from George Westinghouse, which avoided having a separate brakeman

It appears to be that early US railroads didn't have turntables for 4 wheel wagons and coaches, but UK did, so persisted with them for few decades
 

edwin_m

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The 3 significant changes in US appear to be

mid 1830s the 4wheel truck introduced (what we call a bogie)
1868 when Major Eli H. Janney introduced the knuckle-coupler replacing the deadly link-and-pin system that often resulted in the maiming of limbs and fingers
1869 with the air-brake from George Westinghouse, which avoided having a separate brakeman

It appears to be that early US railroads didn't have turntables for 4 wheel wagons and coaches, but UK did, so persisted with them for few decades
Rapid transit, electric commuter railroads and the electric tram (streetcar or interurban) were to a large extent American innovations too, although now far more seem in Europe.
 

Ken H

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Rapid transit, electric commuter railroads and the electric tram (streetcar or interurban) were to a large extent American innovations too, although now far more seem in Europe.
Much of the London Underground was built by americans. And the electrification system was US technology. Not sure if European systems has US influence or whether they copied London.
 

matchmaker

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Yes but we continued to build 4/6 wheelers for a considerable time after that date as far as I can tell.
At nationalisation there were still ex-Caledonian 4 and 6 wheelers "on the books". The last 4 wheeler, a third built 1920, was withdrawn in 1952 and the last 6 wheeler, a full brake built 1921, wasn't withdrawn until 1958.
 

ac6000cw

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Much of the London Underground was built by americans. And the electrification system was US technology. Not sure if European systems has US influence or whether they copied London.
Railway electrification developed on both sides of the Atlantic at about the same time, starting at the end of the 19th century, with the major electrical companies in US and Europe sometimes having alliances (or subsidiary companies on the other side). Both the Europe and the US were using both DC and low-frequency AC for mainline electrification over a century ago. The 1915 Norfolk & Western 11kV 25Hz freight electrification even used locos with 3-phase AC motors and the LB&SCR south London electrification in 1909 was 6.6kV AC, using equipment supplied by AEG in Germany.

The US also went fairly early into power and automatic signalling - some of the early UK installations of that were derived from US practice and equipment. I suppose you could say today's ROC concept of controlling and monitoring many remote interlockings from a single centre has its roots in the late 1920s development of CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) in the US.
 

43096

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Even in recent years there have been continuing difficulties with UK bogies. The best riding from BR days was probably the Commonwealth. That's a USA design (Commonwealth Steel of St. Louis).
Best riding in BR days was the BT10, by a very long way. Commonwealth bogies were much better than the BR1, Gresley et al bogies that came before and the B4 was a bit better than the Commonwealth (but significantly lighter). The T4 was also very good, albeit not used above 90mph on passenger carrying stock. After that it gets worse…
 

Rescars

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At nationalisation there were still ex-Caledonian 4 and 6 wheelers "on the books". The last 4 wheeler, a third built 1920, was withdrawn in 1952 and the last 6 wheeler, a full brake built 1921, wasn't withdrawn until 1958.
Does anyone know why 6 wheelers were so popular, especially on express trains? Surely a bogie carriage would have given a better ride. Presumably a rigid frame 6 wheeler would have been cheaper to build. So was it just a matter of cost?

As a further thought, at least as far as the LNWR was concerned, does anyone know if it was possible to fit bogie stock with the Clark and Webb chain brake? This must have been easier to install on fixed frame vehicles - whilst it remained in favour.
 
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Taunton

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As we seem to be moving on to general UK/USA differences, there's also vacuum brakes in the UK and air brakes in the USA (which finally won out over here as well). Vacuum was also quite widespread across Europe, at least before 1939.
 

hexagon789

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So it certainly seems to me that the Americans 'gave us' the concept of bogies.
No, the first documented design of a bogie dates from 1812. By an engineer from Whitby called William Chapman.

He also invented articulation in railway vehicles.
 

Irascible

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As we seem to be moving on to general UK/USA differences, there's also vacuum brakes in the UK and air brakes in the USA (which finally won out over here as well). Vacuum was also quite widespread across Europe, at least before 1939.
There was a reasonable use of air brakes here too, pre-grouping. I guess the most noticeable result was the dual braked West coast joint stock. Given most installs used triple valves & not distributors for quite some time I have my own opinions about who got it more right...
 

norbitonflyer

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No, the first documented design of a bogie dates from 1812. By an engineer from Whitby called William Chapman.
Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if someone, faced with having to transport a lengthy object along a tramway, hadn't come up with the idea of carrying it on two four-wheeled wagons with enough play in the mountings to allow them to turn independently through curves.
 

hexagon789

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Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if someone, faced with having to transport a lengthy object along a tramway, hadn't come up with the idea of carrying it on two four-wheeled wagons with enough play in the mountings to allow them to turn independently through curves.
Hence my including 'documented' ;)

I do appreciate it's quite possible, even likeky perhaps, that earlier versions of a something like bogie may have developed in older tramways or even possibly plateways. Maybe much more basic in design though.
 

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