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Stagecoach Cashless Trial - Illegal?

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Sun Chariot

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We're 80-odd posts in and the only source that has been referenced so far is a Facebook post that nobody can access! Is this the cashless trial being referred to?



Let's put things into perspective. The article says that routes 12 and 17 are affected - that's two routes out of how many that the company runs? Secondly, it only seems to affect adult single tickets; anyone who frequently travels by bus will know, or will quite quickly be informed, that there are cheaper tickets available.

How many people is this policy really going to affect? As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, people with disabilities will likely be eligible for free travel anyway.
Spot on
 
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cactustwirly

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In other countries, cashless operation has been achieved in large part because of lobbying from unions after drivers getting robbed, for example in the Netherlands. Boarding times were not such a major factor because nearly all passengers already used smartcards. Stagecoach buses don't use tap in tap out so they suffer from poor boarding times, and this trial won't help much, if at all, as they are simply replacing cash singles with singles bought from the driver using a bank card.
How come they don't? Most bus companies use it including most of Go Ahead and First
 

AlterEgo

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No, however it shouldn't be about need.

The customer should have the choice to pay with our national tender, should they so wish.
What is “National tender”? How is it different from “cash”?
 

Great_Western

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Until 2020, my local operator (Newport Bus) was cash only and only accepted exact fare. In reality, this is far, far worse than being cashless. Since contactless payment was introduced, it's vanishingly rare to see anyone pay any other way.

Looking through this debate, I am still yet to see a good argument in favour of operators not going cashless. Anyone who may have an issue paying by card (the elderly and disabled) would be eligible for a bus pass anyway.

In my view, we need to get over the hesitation about moving away from cash. Card payments are objectively better in pretty much every way. The only exception to this would be if you're a business owner who wanted to not pay tax.
 

johncrossley

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Until 2020, my local operator (Newport Bus) was cash only and only accepted exact fare. In reality, this is far, far worse than being cashless. Since contactless payment was introduced, it's vanishingly rare to see anyone pay any other way.

Newport Bus only allows you to buy a paper ticket from the driver. This is the same whether you use cash or card. So this isn't great at all as it wastes a lot of time.
 

Robertj21a

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Mountains and molehills come to mind. Cash is already not accepted on our biggest UK operation. Elsewhere the vast majority of fares are cashless.
.
We only need progress/agreement on the 1% who will struggle.
 

markydh

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Card payments using Stagecoach in the North East can actually be slower because their machines are unreliable and can take 2 or 3 goes before it accepts a card, by which point the passenger would already be sat down had cash just been used, particularly when everyone knows what the fare is. Smart card top ups can take forever, also.
 

JGurney

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They could be given a pre-paid debit card for the day instead.
Is that practical? How would it work? Would this mean having a supply of disposable cards and using a fresh one each day, or a system where a card, or the account linked to it, was remotely reloaded overnight each day?
Such a system would have to be highly reliable, and would require the user to be able to remember, or keep notes on, how much they had spent and therefore how much they had left on the card. An advantage of cash is that anyone able to grasp the value of coins and do simple arithmetic can tell what they have left just by looking in their purse, etc. With a card, someone who had forgotten by 16:00 that they bought something at 10:00 might think they had £7 left on the card when actually they only had £2.50 left.

The big problem with the pro-cash movement is it’s riddled with able bodied conspiracists ......
True. However I think in some cases while physically "able-bodied" some people influenced by conspiracist beliefs are made vulnerable to them due to mental health conditions, especially paranoia and anxiety.
I also think anxiety about venturing into the unknown and unfamiliar, and having to rely upon unknown people and machines, is challenging for people with anxiety-related conditions.

The only adult I know who would be directly affected is someone who has no contactless card, etc, and is very unwilling to have one. If told she could not get on a bus without one, she would probably feel compelled to give up using buses, would walk locally and just not go to places further away.

This is not directly linked to belief in conspiracy theories, although I am worried that she is becoming drawn towards those which support and validate her fears about using cards.

Her main problems around using cards are:
- fear of overspending or getting into debt.
- fear of fraud.
- fear of something technical going wrong and her not knowing how to resolve it.
- fear of any of the above resulting in fraught interactions with bank staff, bus drivers, shop staff etc, which she will be unable to manage due to social anxiety.

Her income is paid into a building society account which has no card, etc. Each week she withdraws enough cash for her weekly general spending, making sure she leaves enough in the account to meet utility bills, etc.
This leave her reassured that her bills will be met, and able to keep track of spending by glancing in her purse to check what she has left.
She fears that if she used a card instead then, unless she kept a careful record of each transaction, she might lose track of her spending and accidently spend beyond her limit needed to have enough 'bills money' left.
This is of course in itself a rational fear for anyone on a limited income and without savings.

Her unfamiliarity with all forms of IT, and reading alarming newspaper stories about frauds, do not help. She finds dealing with unhelpful officialdom very difficult and foresees (and gets anxious about) all sorts of things which might possibly go wrong in using a card and could lead into terrifying attempts to negotiate with banks, etc.

My attempts to reassure her by referring to my own experience of successfully using cards, etc, are ineffective because as she realistically points out, my circumstances are quite different. I know much more than she does about both IT and retail banking, as an experienced union rep I am quite comfortable in negotiations with officialdom and with pursuing complaints, and I could afford to exceed my typical weekly spending by far more than she could before it caused me any problems. She points out that problems which would be serious for her would be trivial for me, and realistically she is right.

To what extent we should regard these anxieties as a kind of disability might be open to question.
 
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johncrossley

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With a card, someone who had forgotten by 16:00 that they bought something at 10:00 might think they had £7 left on the card when actually they only had £2.50 left.

Smartcards are a common option in many cashless transport systems for those who don't want to use bank cards. For example, in London, Sydney, Amsterdam and Brussels. However, smartcards would not meet your requirements as you can't see the balance just by looking at the card.
 
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RT4038

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Is that practical? How would it work? Would this mean having a supply of disposable cards and using a fresh one each day, or a system where a card, or the account linked to it, was remotely reloaded overnight each day?
Such a system would have to be highly reliable, and would require the user to be able to remember, or keep notes on, how much they had spent and therefore how much they had left on the card. An advantage of cash is that anyone able to grasp the value of coins and do simple arithmetic can tell what they have left just by looking in their purse, etc. With a card, someone who had forgotten by 16:00 that they bought something at 10:00 might think they had £7 left on the card when actually they only had £2.50 left.


True. However I think in some cases while physically "able-bodied" some people influenced by conspiracist beliefs are made vulnerable to them due to mental health conditions, especially paranoia and anxiety.
I also think anxiety about venturing into the unknown and unfamiliar, and having to rely upon unknown people and machines, is challenging for people with anxiety-related conditions.

The only adult I know who would be directly affected is someone who has no contactless card, etc, and is very unwilling to have one. If told she could not get on a bus without one, she would probably feel compelled to give up using buses, would walk locally and just not go to places further away.

This is not directly linked to belief in conspiracy theories, although I am worried that she is becoming drawn towards those which support and validate her fears about using cards.

Her main problems around using cards are:
- fear of overspending or getting into debt.
- fear of fraud.
- fear of something technical going wrong and her not knowing how to resolve it.
- fear of any of the above resulting in fraught interactions with bank staff, bus drivers, shop staff etc, which she will be unable to manage due to social anxiety.

Her income is paid into a building society account which has no card, etc. Each week she withdraws enough cash for her weekly general spending, making sure she leaves enough in the account to meet utility bills, etc.
This leave her reassured that her bills will be met, and able to keep track of spending by glancing in her purse to check what she has left.
She fears that if she used a card instead then, unless she kept a careful record of each transaction, she might lose track of her spending and accidently spend beyond her limit needed to have enough 'bills money' left.
This is of course in itself a rational fear for anyone on a limited income and without savings.

Her unfamiliarity with all forms of IT, and reading alarming newspaper stories about frauds, do not help. She finds dealing with unhelpful officialdom very difficult and foresees (and gets anxious about) all sorts of things which might possibly go wrong in using a card and could lead into terrifying attempts to negotiate with banks, etc.

My attempts to reassure her by referring to my own experience of successfully using cards, etc, are ineffective because as she realistically points out, my circumstances are quite different. I know much more than she does about both IT and retail banking, as an experienced union rep I am quite comfortable in negotiations with officialdom and with pursuing complaints, and I could afford to exceed my typical weekly spending by far more than she could before it caused me any problems. She points out that problems which would be serious for her would be trivial for me, and realistically she is right.

To what extent we should regard these anxieties as a kind of disability might be open to question.
I recall that when the move from paying wages in cash to bank accounts was in progress in the 70s and 80s, there were a million reasons why this was shocking, disgusting and abhorrent, and the end of civilisation as we knew it. None of these fears transpired and hardly anyone, if any, is paid fior mainstream work in cash nowadays?
 

CBlue

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I have already contacted them as soon as I saw the post and I made my opinion very well known.

And if you wanted your communications to be taken seriously, I very much hope you left out "disgrace" "abhorrent" et cetera in your writing - just as suggested the bit of my post you seemingly felt you didn't need to respond to.

Sending messages with much wailing and gnashing of teeth tends to just get them filed into the nearest bin.


We're 80-odd posts in and the only source that has been referenced so far is a Facebook post that nobody can access! Is this the cashless trial being referred to?



Let's put things into perspective. The article says that routes 12 and 17 are affected - that's two routes out of how many that the company runs? Secondly, it only seems to affect adult single tickets; anyone who frequently travels by bus will know, or will quite quickly be informed, that there are cheaper tickets available.

How many people is this policy really going to affect? As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, people with disabilities will likely be eligible for free travel anyway.

Sounds like it'll be miniscule, although I guess we're overdue for a "compo face" local news article. Perhaps we can get a local councillor involved to angrily point at a bus stop flag somewhere along route 12?
 

Starmill

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You think Transport for London is a "here today, gone tomorrow outfit"? Crikey.
As people keep on repeatedly pointing out it's very easy to pay for a London Bus using cash if you wish to. There are many thousands of individual TVMs and Oyster ticket stops around and outside Greater London that can do new Oyster cards and top ups. Ticket stops may issue the day passes on paper also.

I have no objection to cashless public transport services, We’re years behind the rest of Europe in this regard.

London - Cashless
Guernsey - Cashless
Berlin - Cashless
Amsterdam - Cashless
Rotterdam - Cashless
Valencia - Cashless
Slovenia - Cashless (Arriva)
It's easy to pay cash at ticket machines in Berlin and London. I would suggest you need to review your list in light of that...
 

Haywain

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As people keep on repeatedly pointing out it's very easy to pay for a London Bus using cash if you wish to. There are many thousands of individual TVMs and Oyster ticket stops around and outside Greater London that can do new Oyster cards and top ups. Ticket stops may issue the day passes on paper also.


It's easy to pay cash at ticket machines in Berlin and London. I would suggest you need to review your list in light of that...
On that basis there is no such concept as cashless as anyone can pay cash into a bank account and then use a contactless debit card.
 

RHolmes

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It's easy to pay cash at ticket machines in Berlin and London. I would suggest you need to review your list in light of that...

I won’t be doing that.

The point was to demonstrate that other parts of the world transport has gone cashless far faster than the UK has, and they manage without labelling the idea a “disgrace”.

It may be easy if you live next to an underground or national rail station, but if you’re in the middle of suburban Berlin and want to catch a bus, you’ll struggle without having to walk some distance to find a ticket machine first, and hope it’s actually working (BVG are really good at maintenance however).

In London, you’ll have to find a newsagent that offers PayPoint facilities, handover £7 for the oyster card alone, followed by a top up amount that will be far greater than the £1.75 fare value, I wouldn’t call that easy personally.
 

Starmill

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On that basis there is no such concept as cashless as anyone can pay cash into a bank account and then use a contactless debit card.
I don't think that's true, opening a bank account requires a fixed address and an acceptable form of ID for the bank or prepaid card provider to comply with their obligations in law. It also usually cannot be done on the spot, and notwithstanding a very, very limited trial with HSBC people of no fixed abode or living in a refuge where mail can't be delivered will in practice face huge financial exclusion. Using a ticket machine or oyster stop requires no ID and is almost instant.

The point was to demonstrate that other parts of the world transport has gone cashless far faster than the UK has, and they manage without labelling the idea a “disgrace”.
Your point is a false comparison. It doesn't stand up to the availabile evidence.

In London, you’ll have to find a newsagent that offers PayPoint facilities, handover £7 for the oyster card alone, followed by a top up amount that will be far greater than the £1.75 fare value, I wouldn’t call that easy personally.
It's not the first bit difficult and takes a few minutes at most. And the deposit and fee is only relevant on the first such occasion. It's entirely unlike what's proposed in the OP.
 

Haywain

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I don't think that's true, opening a bank account requires a fixed address and an acceptable form of ID for the bank or prepaid card provider to comply with their obligations in law. It also usually cannot be done on the spot, and notwithstanding a very, very limited trial with HSBC people of no fixed abode or living in a refuge where mail can't be delivered will in practice face huge financial exclusion. Using a ticket machine or oyster stop requires no ID and is almost instant.
It's actually quite easy to get a prepaid debit card that can be topped up at Paypoint stores, so no more difficult than adding cash to Oyster. You appear to be imagining obstacles that don't actually exist.
 

Starmill

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It's actually quite easy to get a prepaid debit card that can be topped up at Paypoint stores, so no more difficult than adding cash to Oyster. You appear to be imagining obstacles that don't actually exist.
Your post said bank account, so I responded on the basis that you suggested. Banks must know their customer's real name and address for certain, such a requirement isn't imaginary. I agree however, if what you actually meant was prepaid cards with paypoint or post office top up are the next best option we have at present for people who can't pay cash on a bus or tram in London. I don't really see how it changes anything though because stations do sell Oyster card top up but they don't sell prepaid card top ups (sometimes there may be a newsagent who can do it in the station). TfL in 2035 or 2040 may actually be cashless, as the prepaid cards you suggest move forward, but it certainly isn't in 2025.
 
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RHolmes

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It's not the first bit difficult and takes a few minutes at most.
Compared to contactless payment which is the current alternative it is difficult and also time consuming comparatively to simply just getting on the bus.
And the deposit and fee is only relevant on the first such occasion. It's entirely unlike what's proposed in the OP.
That’s also incorrect. Should you lose, damage or misplace your oyster card, you will need to buy a brand new one again

The deposit fee is now non-refundable.
 

Mainline421

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China has old people paying for everything with QR since cash and even card is barely accepted in most locations.
This isn't true, in 2024 I never encountered a single place there that didn't accept cash. In fact I had to pay for everything in cash for the duration of my time there, as MasterCard, Visa, and Amex are all not accepted (except at Bank ATMs)
 
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stadler

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This isn't true, in 2024 I never encountered a single place there that didn't accept cash. In fact I had to pay for everything in cash for the duration of time there, as MasterCard, Visa, and Amex are all not accepted (except at Bank ATMs)
Indeed in China there is no such thing as a cashless business. That is because in China cashless businesses are illegal. China has very sensibly introduced a law years ago that requires all businesses to accept cash. Most people pay with phone apps and some businesses can go days or weeks without a cash payment but cash is always still accepted anywhere in China if you wish to pay that way. A couple of countries in Europe (including Norway from last year) have also introduced laws making it mandatory for all businesses to take cash. It is a shame the UK government does not have the sense to do the same.
 

Starmill

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Compared to contactless payment which is the current alternative it is difficult and also time consuming comparatively to simply just getting on the bus.
So use contactless if it's your preference. I never said you personally had to find it convenient. I don't see how this affects anything, you said it's cashless as is proposed here, and you're wrong. You can pay cash if you want to by jumping through the appropriate hoops, same as all payments methods for anything in life. The proposal in these circumstances is that cash cannot be used.

That’s also incorrect. Should you lose, damage or misplace your oyster card, you will need to buy a brand new one again

The deposit fee is now non-refundable.
This is completely irrelevant because someone who wants to pay cash will either a) not lose their Oyster card b) accept the loss of the £7 as the price of their misfortune to lose the card c) get their travel on a paper pass and not an Oyster card.

Cards which fail can be replaced free of charge by TfL customer service if the old one is returned.

Lots of businesses around the country won't accept cash payments, which is the common understanding of the term "cashless". There's nothing to suggest this is unlawful and I wouldn't term it "a disgrace". However, regardless of all of that, no TfL travel mode can reasonably be described in that way in 2025.
 
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johncrossley

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A couple of countries in Europe (including Norway from last year) have also introduced laws making it mandatory for all businesses to take cash.

Trams in Oslo don't sell tickets on board. Does that count as "cashless"? There is a 20 NOK surcharge for paying on board buses in Oslo, which is a bigger surcharge than what TfL were charging in 2014.
 

stadler

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Trams in Oslo don't sell tickets on board. Does that count as "cashless"? There is a 20 NOK surcharge for paying on board buses in Oslo, which is a bigger surcharge than what TfL were charging in 2014.
I do not think the trams are cashless as such as they require everyone to buy a ticket before boarding. Unfortunately the onboard surcharge is very common across many Mainland European countries. I am not a fan of it. The mainline railways in Norway do this as well regardless of whether you pay with cash or card. They charge a fee of NOK40.00 which is double what the bus charges. Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, all have onboard surcharges on the trains too. I dislike the onboard surcharge however this is not really a cash surcharge as you also get charged this if you buy a ticket with card onboard if they accept card.
 

johncrossley

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I do not think the trams are cashless as such as they require everyone to buy a ticket before boarding. Unfortunately the onboard surcharge is very common across many Mainland European countries. I am not a fan of it. The mainline railways in Norway do this as well regardless of whether you pay with cash or card. They charge a fee of NOK40.00 which is double what the bus charges. Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, all have onboard surcharges on the trains too. I dislike the onboard surcharge however this is not really a cash surcharge as you also get charged this if you buy a ticket with card onboard if they accept card.

There isn't much difference, in my view, between Oslo trams and London buses. You can't buy a ticket on either. Yes, you can use a bank card as a token (to identify you during overnight processing) or validate an Oyster card, but it is debatable whether that is equivalent to buying a ticket. In any case, both of them prohibit cash payment on board so they should both be considered "cashless".

It sounds like you are happy with cashless as long as cards are banned as well. Trams are not a special case because it is not unknown for tram drivers or conductors to sell tickets.
 

Starmill

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I do not think the trams are cashless as such as they require everyone to buy a ticket before boarding. Unfortunately the onboard surcharge is very common across many Mainland European countries. I am not a fan of it. The mainline railways in Norway do this as well regardless of whether you pay with cash or card. They charge a fee of NOK40.00 which is double what the bus charges. Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, all have onboard surcharges on the trains too. I dislike the onboard surcharge however this is not really a cash surcharge as you also get charged this if you buy a ticket with card onboard if they accept card.
The Payment Service Directive 2 made it harder or impossible to charge extra for using cards but not cash. Of course, some businesses responded by ceasing to accept any cash. For genuine examples related to transport industry in Britain, the Swanage railway and the GWR onboard catering service.
 

stadler

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There isn't much difference, in my view, between Oslo trams and London buses. You can't buy a ticket on either. Yes, you can use a bank card as a token (to identify you during overnight processing) or validate an Oyster card, but it is debatable whether that is equivalent to buying a ticket. In any case, both of them prohibit cash payment on board so they should both be considered "cashless".

It sounds like you are happy with cashless as long as cards are banned as well. Trams are not a special case because it is not unknown for tram drivers or conductors to sell tickets.
Yes they should either accept cash and card or nothing at all and make you buy before. For buses the ideal method is accepting cash and card onboard and i do think buses should always sell tickets. However with trams it is not normally possible these days. It is very difficult to sell tickets onboard trams (or trains) unless they have a conductor onboard as the cabs on modern era trams are not normally designed for it. If the tram stops have ticket machines then that is fine as then both cash users and card users can buy a ticket in the same way just as easily. Although i do think the best method is Sheffield style conductor operation.
 

johncrossley

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The Payment Service Directive 2 made it harder or impossible to charge extra for using cards but not cash.

Does that mean bus operators can no longer charge higher cash fares compared to tap in tap out, like what TfL did before 2014?
 

Starmill

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Does that mean bus operators can no longer charge higher cash fares compared to tap in tap out, like what TfL did before 2014?
I am not sure. It could be the case. At the time the UK was still subject to EU2366/2015 and implemented it I think in January 2018. I am unfamiliar with the post-Brexit position, if it has changed.
 

RHolmes

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So use contactless if it's your preference. I never said you personally had to find it convenient.
I’ve already said in this thread that I do.

You’re the poster who has claimed it’s easy and convenient to use cash on TfL and I’ve simply argued that it isn’t and comes with additional charges and steps in order to do so.
I don't see how this affects anything, you said it's cashless as is proposed here, and you're wrong. You can pay cash if you want to by jumping through the appropriate hoops, same as all payments methods for anything in life. The proposal in these circumstances is that cash cannot be used.
If you want to class jumping through hoops as accepting cash then you’d end up on the border of ridiculousness and abnormal.

For example you could buy a valid plusbus ticket alongside an appropriate train ticket with cash, and not use the train ticket, and board the two Stagecoach Kent services but no sane person would do that.
 

Starmill

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If you want to class jumping through hoops as accepting cash then you’d end up on the border of ridiculousness and abnormal.
All transactions come with conditions on how to pay. It's the way it is for anyone. The condition being you must pay using a contactless enabled card or device, or on a smartcard, is an ordinary and normal one for public transport in the UK and across the world. I recently also used a bus where the only acceptable method of payment was cash.

You’re the poster who has claimed it’s easy and convenient to use cash on TfL and I’ve simply argued that it isn’t and comes with additional charges and steps in order to do so.
You equated TfL's bus network with the trial in Kent. Unfortunately this comparison is false. You can keep repeating irrelevant information about how easy or not it is if you want to but the fact remains it's possible, it has been possible since the inception of Oyster, lots of people do it, and it's likely to remain possible for the next few years. TfL didn't even go ahead with their cashless station trial. If you don't like the fact that it's possible and in common use that's completely up to you and has nothing to do with me, but it is regardless of your opinion on the matter. I also noted that you provided misleading information on Berlin as well as London. In Kent, it wouldn't be possible, according to the information provided up the thread.

For example you could buy a valid plusbus ticket alongside an appropriate train ticket with cash, and not use the train ticket, and board the two Stagecoach Kent services but no sane person would do that.
There are a tiny handful of railway stations where there's a ticket office you could do this at. Almost nobody would bother.

There are several thousand Oyster ticket stops around and outside London. There are also many hundreds of ticket machines at all kinds of different stations.
 
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