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Will TOC only fares disappear upon nationalisation?
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Turtle
Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2013
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- 393
One can only hope that the current fares shambles will die a death under GBR, preferably a quick one.
Government set how fares work. Although the current system is set up around the TOCs and managing what they can charge, there's no reason that will be the basis for a future GBR fares system.
However, there are various circumstances where the ability to charge differential fares will still be wanted. As you mention, airport expresses, or in general trying to steer passengers towards commuter trains and not expresses. If there's no TOC, then it can't be a TOC-specific fare, but perhaps there will be some other way to mark out different trains.
But at this point, we just don't know. The government has failed to give any indication of what the new system will be. I'm not sure why it would need to be a massive secret that can only be revealed when they put forward the legislation to make GBR happen. Of course, that assumes they do have a plan, they didn't just think the magic word 'nationalisation' would fix everything and have considered what that actually means.
There could be "via Northampton" or "via (calling at) Atherstone" which would generally keep a distinction between current LNR and Avanti services (Avanti services calling at Northampton or between Tamworth / Lichfield and Crewe are infrequent enough that I don't think it's really worth trying to exclude them – I can't see the only option for Nuneaton – Euston being intercity prices being popular though).
Government policy appears to very much be 'Pay as you go' for short distance journeys and advance purchase for longer distance journeys. Once that is in place any need for TOC only walk up tickets is removed.
Do there need to be? The fare distinction can be done by just having different advance purchase fare levels for different trains. I would imagine that many long distance users of LNR are already travelling on advance purchase tickets despite the walk up options.
That is the case for me; even at £33 for an off-peak return from Hemel Hempstead to Crewe with a railcard, I tend to go for advance tickets for ~£7 when possible instead.
Cases like season tickets from Nuneaton to Euston (~£8000 per year for LNR or £12000 for Avanti) are ones where I think another solution might be needed though.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think they may persist where they widen the market, eg route High Wycombe, but it's likely a lot will move to Advances.
I hope the ones where it's 10p difference just disappear, they benefit nobody.
I hope the ones where it's 10p difference just disappear, they benefit nobody.
Assuming Scotland and Wales and other devolved regions take their ‘own’ revenue I imagine there will still be TOC specific fares on relevant flows served by more than one funder. Plus open access, and some means of paying a premium for the ‘express’ option where one exists eg Reading-Paddington.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
On the WCML, you're more likely to see the WMT only walk-up fares abolished and replaced with cheaper Advances. You will likely see better availability/cooperation for AP fares with itineraries involving InterCity and local services.
I'm pretty sure, open access aside, that TOC only walk-up fares will disappear eventually, but it will be done in such a way that people end up roughly paying around what they currently do, through plentiful availability of cheap Advance fares instead, up until a few minutes before departure, much like Northern. Yes, they'll be buying a different product with different terms, but for the most part, leisure passengers are cost conscious first and foremost.
I'm pretty sure, open access aside, that TOC only walk-up fares will disappear eventually, but it will be done in such a way that people end up roughly paying around what they currently do, through plentiful availability of cheap Advance fares instead, up until a few minutes before departure, much like Northern. Yes, they'll be buying a different product with different terms, but for the most part, leisure passengers are cost conscious first and foremost.
I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar remain. The choice of paying a bit less and getting a slower train is a good way to spread loadings around, or everyone will get the fastest trains and they'll be packed with people not going that far.
I doubt that "TOCs" will remain a thing, but there'll probably be some categorization of services.
I doubt that "TOCs" will remain a thing, but there'll probably be some categorization of services.
I wouldn't be surprised if GBR keeps some "TOC" branding, if for no other reason that it helps passengers with where they are traveling.
Even SWR's there different colours are useful in that regard, even though they are run by the same company - certainly not foolproof, but certainty helpful.
You may find some branding fall away (not sure how useful having all of EMR, Avanti and LNER having such different branding is for long distance travel is - but then having all long distance trains being intercity might not be overly helpful either).
BR had brands, (Network South East, InterCity, etc.), so it's not unreasonable that GBR will also have brands. The question boils down to do they end up with as few as BR had or as many as there are (or had been) TOC's.
There's even the possibility of branding by line (see London Overground as an example), which may not impact the trains (although given how cheap it is to install LED's a train could have different coloured lights to show where it's going - for example around windows or display boards).
Even SWR's there different colours are useful in that regard, even though they are run by the same company - certainly not foolproof, but certainty helpful.
You may find some branding fall away (not sure how useful having all of EMR, Avanti and LNER having such different branding is for long distance travel is - but then having all long distance trains being intercity might not be overly helpful either).
BR had brands, (Network South East, InterCity, etc.), so it's not unreasonable that GBR will also have brands. The question boils down to do they end up with as few as BR had or as many as there are (or had been) TOC's.
There's even the possibility of branding by line (see London Overground as an example), which may not impact the trains (although given how cheap it is to install LED's a train could have different coloured lights to show where it's going - for example around windows or display boards).
deltic
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Feb 2010
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- 3,479
We already have TOCs nationalised operating on the same routes and they have retained their TOC only fares. The glacial speed of setting ip Great British Railways suggest they are likely to be around for some time to come even if there is a desire to get rid of them.
A huge step backwards unfortunately.
These "great minds" at the top of the industry/DFT don't seem to understand that rail is competing with motor transport where funnily enough, people don't have to plan their every move weeks in advance and aren't subjected to surge pricing for tax and petrol.
The more I see of this fares "reform" the more I see it as a way of treating non-motorists as second class citizens.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Agreed, especially when some ticket buying websites don't make it crystal clear that advance tickets are for the booked train only, and you will end up with Uncle Bert getting into trouble for travelling on the 11;43 train rather than the 12;13 train.
Or if a group are heading out for a walk and are unsure what time they will arrive at the destination, or football fans heading for a cup match which potentially could get extended by 45+ minutes if extra time/penalties are required (ie FA cup).
Advance tickets suit some passengers who are able to know they will be on the XX;YY train, but for others they will end up paying over the odds for an any permitted flexible ticket or even not bother using the train.
Advance tickets should go back to the olden days of only being available on longer distance journeys (over 50 miles or an hour), not for Ashburys to Piccadilly etc
I agree. Advanced tickets have their place, but they should not be the default option.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The fares system we have is essentially the BR one of (I think) 1994, only tweaked to an almost absurd extent to fit the aspirations of multiple private TOCs.
Come the revolution, the future may not look so different even if there is essentially only one TOC.
Come the revolution, the future may not look so different even if there is essentially only one TOC.
BlueLeanie
Member
Be assured it will remain just as complex. Areas with Mayors and more powerful local authorities will have influence on fares through route sponsorship or even stock procurement.
Even under BR we had SPT and so forth.
Even under BR we had SPT and so forth.
Jim the Jim
Member
I think on the WCML at least they will surely want to keep a distinction in pricing between fast and slow trains. Though HS2 will potentially further complicate things given it will affect WCML service patterns - perhaps then just having different "high speed" and "classic" route prices will be enough.
renegademaster
Established Member
Surely a joined up railway would try to move LNWR to actually being a local service and not "the cheap way to Birmingham"
brad465
Established Member
How effective are the 70 minute Flex tickets LNER use? I haven't used it yet but it sounds like something that mitigates the problems of pure Advance tickets.
The original intention appears to have been to use spare capacity on the locals for long distance journeys, but in a sense that has changed the nature of the locals because what were comfortable loadings on four coach trains has necessitated running eight coach trains instead as the long distance custom has grown.
It rather shows that the public want affordable walk on fares, not to be herded around at the railway's convenience.
I suspect the majority of customers are on advance fares on the long distance LNR services.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Such a ticket was only introduced as part of their fare increases by doing away with the price cap offered by the super off-peak single tickets.
I dread to think how much LNER have been wanting for a single from Edinburgh to London for this afternoon which is over the 'cap' of £95.40 for a super off-peak single from Newcraighall to London. Especially as the WCML is closed so they will have passengers from Glasgow.
Almost all apparently 'fully booked' in any case. £142.50 advance for the 1937 departure.
Kite159
Veteran Member
No surprise they are all 'fully booked' considering it's both Easter Monday & the last day of school holidays for some areas so demand will be high. Especially when the WCML is closed pushing those with Glasgow - London tickets into using LNER from Edinburgh to avoid the two sections of replacement buses [Carlisle - Glasgow/Edinburgh & Euston - Milton Keynes]. It was busy enough yesterday.
No doubt similar to when Newcastle got to the Cup final they have been making a lot more money by charging those sorts of high fares as they got rid of the super off-peak single and the protection of the price cap
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's basically meant a 50% fare increase, pretty much.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
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- 14,502
So, is the £95.40 Super Off Peak Single ticket from Newcraighall to Kings Cross not valid at all for travel today (Easter Monday)?