Will TOC only fares disappear upon nationalisation?

[Jan Mayen]

Nothing much to add to the question, really. I'm aware that (for example) under British Rail, Gatwick Express charged extra compared to Newtwork South Central. Would they still be able to do that after nationalisation?

 

[Turtle]

Nothing much to add to the question, really. I'm aware that (for example) under British Rail, Gatwick Express charged extra compared to Newtwork South Central. Would they still be able to do that after nationalisation?

One can only hope that the current fares shambles will die a death under GBR, preferably a quick one.

 

[mrcheek]

yes.

any chance to get rid of cheaper fares will be taken.

Apparently, surveys have said that passengers want simpler fares. Funny thing is, every time they get "simplified", they go up! (See LNER)

 

[JamesT]

Nothing much to add to the question, really. I'm aware that (for example) under British Rail, Gatwick Express charged extra compared to Newtwork South Central. Would they still be able to do that after nationalisation?

Government set how fares work. Although the current system is set up around the TOCs and managing what they can charge, there's no reason that will be the basis for a future GBR fares system.

However, there are various circumstances where the ability to charge differential fares will still be wanted. As you mention, airport expresses, or in general trying to steer passengers towards commuter trains and not expresses. If there's no TOC, then it can't be a TOC-specific fare, but perhaps there will be some other way to mark out different trains.

But at this point, we just don't know. The government has failed to give any indication of what the new system will be. I'm not sure why it would need to be a massive secret that can only be revealed when they put forward the legislation to make GBR happen. Of course, that assumes they do have a plan, they didn't just think the magic word 'nationalisation' would fix everything and have considered what that actually means.

 

[A S Leib]

but perhaps there will be some other way to mark out different trains.

There could be "via Northampton" or "via (calling at) Atherstone" which would generally keep a distinction between current LNR and Avanti services (Avanti services calling at Northampton or between Tamworth / Lichfield and Crewe are infrequent enough that I don't think it's really worth trying to exclude them – I can't see the only option for Nuneaton – Euston being intercity prices being popular though).

 

[JonathanH]

Government policy appears to very much be 'Pay as you go' for short distance journeys and advance purchase for longer distance journeys. Once that is in place any need for TOC only walk up tickets is removed.

There could be "via Northampton" or "via (calling at) Atherstone" which would generally keep a distinction between current LNR and Avanti services (Avanti services calling at Northampton or between Tamworth / Lichfield and Crewe are infrequent enough that I don't think it's really worth trying to exclude them – I can't see the only option for Nuneaton – Euston being intercity prices being popular though).

Do there need to be? The fare distinction can be done by just having different advance purchase fare levels for different trains. I would imagine that many long distance users of LNR are already travelling on advance purchase tickets despite the walk up options.

 

[A S Leib]

I would imagine that many long distance users of LNR are already travelling on advance purchase tickets despite the walk up options.

That is the case for me; even at £33 for an off-peak return from Hemel Hempstead to Crewe with a railcard, I tend to go for advance tickets for ~£7 when possible instead.

Cases like season tickets from Nuneaton to Euston (~£8000 per year for LNR or £12000 for Avanti) are ones where I think another solution might be needed though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they may persist where they widen the market, eg route High Wycombe, but it's likely a lot will move to Advances.

I hope the ones where it's 10p difference just disappear, they benefit nobody.

 

[Dr Day]

Assuming Scotland and Wales and other devolved regions take their ‘own’ revenue I imagine there will still be TOC specific fares on relevant flows served by more than one funder. Plus open access, and some means of paying a premium for the ‘express’ option where one exists eg Reading-Paddington.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

On the WCML, you're more likely to see the WMT only walk-up fares abolished and replaced with cheaper Advances. You will likely see better availability/cooperation for AP fares with itineraries involving InterCity and local services.

I'm pretty sure, open access aside, that TOC only walk-up fares will disappear eventually, but it will be done in such a way that people end up roughly paying around what they currently do, through plentiful availability of cheap Advance fares instead, up until a few minutes before departure, much like Northern. Yes, they'll be buying a different product with different terms, but for the most part, leisure passengers are cost conscious first and foremost.

 

[Zomboid]

I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar remain. The choice of paying a bit less and getting a slower train is a good way to spread loadings around, or everyone will get the fastest trains and they'll be packed with people not going that far.
I doubt that "TOCs" will remain a thing, but there'll probably be some categorization of services.

 

[The Ham]

I wouldn't be surprised if GBR keeps some "TOC" branding, if for no other reason that it helps passengers with where they are traveling.

Even SWR's there different colours are useful in that regard, even though they are run by the same company - certainly not foolproof, but certainty helpful.

You may find some branding fall away (not sure how useful having all of EMR, Avanti and LNER having such different branding is for long distance travel is - but then having all long distance trains being intercity might not be overly helpful either).

BR had brands, (Network South East, InterCity, etc.), so it's not unreasonable that GBR will also have brands. The question boils down to do they end up with as few as BR had or as many as there are (or had been) TOC's.

There's even the possibility of branding by line (see London Overground as an example), which may not impact the trains (although given how cheap it is to install LED's a train could have different coloured lights to show where it's going - for example around windows or display boards).

 

[deltic]

We already have TOCs nationalised operating on the same routes and they have retained their TOC only fares. The glacial speed of setting ip Great British Railways suggest they are likely to be around for some time to come even if there is a desire to get rid of them.

 

[yorksrob]

On the WCML, you're more likely to see the WMT only walk-up fares abolished and replaced with cheaper Advances. You will likely see better availability/cooperation for AP fares with itineraries involving InterCity and local services.

I'm pretty sure, open access aside, that TOC only walk-up fares will disappear eventually, but it will be done in such a way that people end up roughly paying around what they currently do, through plentiful availability of cheap Advance fares instead, up until a few minutes before departure, much like Northern. Yes, they'll be buying a different product with different terms, but for the most part, leisure passengers are cost conscious first and foremost.

A huge step backwards unfortunately.

These "great minds" at the top of the industry/DFT don't seem to understand that rail is competing with motor transport where funnily enough, people don't have to plan their every move weeks in advance and aren't subjected to surge pricing for tax and petrol.

The more I see of this fares "reform" the more I see it as a way of treating non-motorists as second class citizens.

 

[Kite159]

A huge step backwards unfortunately.

These "great minds" at the top of the industry/DFT don't seem to understand that rail is competing with motor transport where funnily enough, people don't have to plan their every move weeks in advance and aren't subjected to surge pricing for tax and petrol.

The more I see of this fares "reform" the more I see it as a way of treating non-motorists as second class citizens.

Agreed, especially when some ticket buying websites don't make it crystal clear that advance tickets are for the booked train only, and you will end up with Uncle Bert getting into trouble for travelling on the 11;43 train rather than the 12;13 train.

Or if a group are heading out for a walk and are unsure what time they will arrive at the destination, or football fans heading for a cup match which potentially could get extended by 45+ minutes if extra time/penalties are required (ie FA cup).

Advance tickets suit some passengers who are able to know they will be on the XX;YY train, but for others they will end up paying over the odds for an any permitted flexible ticket or even not bother using the train.

Advance tickets should go back to the olden days of only being available on longer distance journeys (over 50 miles or an hour), not for Ashburys to Piccadilly etc

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, especially when some ticket buying websites don't make it crystal clear that advance tickets are for the booked train only, and you will end up with Uncle Bert getting into trouble for travelling on the 11;43 train rather than the 12;13 train.

Or if a group are heading out for a walk and are unsure what time they will arrive at the destination, or football fans heading for a cup match which potentially could get extended by 45+ minutes if extra time/penalties are required (ie FA cup).

Advance tickets suit some passengers who are able to know they will be on the XX;YY train, but for others they will end up paying over the odds for an any permitted flexible ticket or even not bother using the train.

Advance tickets should go back to the olden days of only being available on longer distance journeys (over 50 miles or an hour), not for Ashburys to Piccadilly etc

I agree. Advanced tickets have their place, but they should not be the default option.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The fares system we have is essentially the BR one of (I think) 1994, only tweaked to an almost absurd extent to fit the aspirations of multiple private TOCs.
Come the revolution, the future may not look so different even if there is essentially only one TOC.

 

[vuzzeho]

Since open access will continue to exist, yes they will. Within GBR's operators/sectors though? Probably not. They seem serious about simplifying fares though.