£1000 bill for travelling on Virgin Trains on a 'LM only' ticket.

[reb0118]

You're waiting to work a train out of Euston, which is sat in a dead-end platform, and you get "Which way does the train go??"

North.

 

[rs101]

Here is a suggestion. Don't know if it would work. How about having massive large posters everywhere at stations stating the peak and off peak periods may be as early as insert time or as late as insert time. Please check your ticket with a member of staff if you are not sure if it is valid. Of course that leads of the problems of staff not knowing but where else can people go at a station?

The TOCs need to encourage people to be cynical and check everything. Assume the worst about their train ticket until they know otherwise attitude.

Could have done with this on Tuesday evening. Trying to use the return portion of Off Peak returns from Liverpool Street back to Manningtree and wanted to travel back around 7pm. Nothing at all on the massive information screens hint as to which trains off peak tickets can/cannot be used on.

Searching NRE suggested the 19:08 was the earliest (based on tickets it offered) but reading restriction code 1A on NRE, it suggests I could use the 19:00?

 

[bb21]

Doubtless I will now be accused by some of ranting or being OTT but, if doing so, please be prepared to say precisely where I am wrong.

There is no need to throw your toy out of the pram. :roll:

I explained to you exactly why I thought your criticism of others was OTT in that particular thread. I also don't see how a rant about a headline on money launderers has anything to do with the OP's case. For a start, the law applies equally to anyone so no one is picking on her. If you have reasons for it, let's have it.

But in that particular thread, not here.

 

[Urban Gateline]

With regard to "Virgin Trains Only" tickets, my colleague has input the auto announcement that they are not valid on the LM services to Birmingham New Street when it announces these services. Not sure if this is now audible at Euston but it is at Watford Junction. The other LM services stopping at Milton Keynes (including Crewe Services) do not yet have such an announcement attached though.

 

[najaB]

With regard to "Virgin Trains Only" tickets, my colleague has input the auto announcement that they are not valid on the LM services to Birmingham New Street when it announces these services. Not sure if this is now audible at Euston but it is at Watford Junction. The other LM services stopping at Milton Keynes (including Crewe Services) do not yet have such an announcement attached though.

I'm sitting at Euston at the moment and I've heard the announcement that London Midland tickets are not valid on several Virgin services.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I'm sitting at Euston at the moment and I've heard the announcement that London Midland tickets are not valid on several Virgin services.

Yes, this has always been the case, but as I said there should be announcements the other way round now saying "Virgin Trains Only" tickets are not valid on London Midland Services!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'm pretty sure that Euston has always announced that too

 

[najaB]

Yes, this has always been the case, but as I said there should be announcements the other way round now saying "Virgin Trains Only" tickets are not valid on London Midland Services!

Ah, mis-read your post. I *think* that message was played as well, but I'm not completely sure.

 

[Howardh]

If you are a member of the public, not used to catching trains, how are you supposed to know which trains, which company, which times you are supposed to catch - or not catch?

Last year I took my old man on a journey and he hadn't been on a train for 30 years. I used a Northern Rail special day ticket, the route was also covered by TPE.

At one station a TPE train rolled in, going to our destination. He couldn't understand why we couldn't catch it. Even after explanation - to him it was *just a train* and he couldn't comprehend British Rail being split up into different companies.

Basically, what % of the population uses trains more than once every five years? On this board you're the experts. Remember that everyone else is in the dark.

 

[muz379]

If you are a member of the public, not used to catching trains, how are you supposed to know which trains, which company, which times you are supposed to catch - or not catch?

Last year I took my old man on a journey and he hadn't been on a train for 30 years. I used a Northern Rail special day ticket, the route was also covered by TPE.

At one station a TPE train rolled in, going to our destination. He couldn't understand why we couldn't catch it. Even after explanation - to him it was *just a train* and he couldn't comprehend British Rail being split up into different companies.

Basically, what % of the population uses trains more than once every five years? On this board you're the experts. Remember that everyone else is in the dark.

I agree it can be confusing at times for the public especially infrequent travelers . But it would be prudent then if you are not used to catching a train to find out the procedure / rules etc etc . So either ask station staff , or look on the internet etc etc .

I dont fly that often so when I do book flights I would have a look online at the current security procedure / check in rules /baggage restrictions / differing airline rules / check in times etc etc before going to the airport

If I didn't and fell foul of something like not allowing enough time to pass through security or had oversize or overweight hand luggage then I would be penalized for this despite not knowing the rules .

Im not an expert when it comes to flying I know this so I make allowances for that by finding out the score before going to the airport .


Its the same with the railway surely ?

 

[yorkie]

Last year I took my old man on a journey and he hadn't been on a train for 30 years. I used a Northern Rail special day ticket....

You had received the ticket, so you read the T&Cs of it, not him.

I don't think it would be reasonable to obtain a special offer day ticket for a particular Company and then decide that you were going to use any Companies trains because you didn't comprehend the splitting up of BR.

I'll defend people for getting confused in a wide range of confusing situations, but this simply isn't one of them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...Im not an expert when it comes to flying I know this so I make allowances for that by finding out the score before going to the airport .

Its the same with the railway surely ?

To some extent, I'd agree if you were unfamiliar with a particular mode of transport, it would be reasonable to attempt to find out a bit of information about it before making a journey. I wouldn't agree that train travel is the same as airlines, but there are a few similarities (and many big differences).

 

[Howardh]

I agree it can be confusing at times for the public especially infrequent travelers . But it would be prudent then if you are not used to catching a train to find out the procedure / rules etc etc . So either ask station staff , or look on the internet etc etc .

I dont fly that often so when I do book flights I would have a look online at the current security procedure / check in rules /baggage restrictions / differing airline rules / check in times etc etc before going to the airport

If I didn't and fell foul of something like not allowing enough time to pass through security or had oversize or overweight hand luggage then I would be penalized for this despite not knowing the rules .

Im not an expert when it comes to flying I know this so I make allowances for that by finding out the score before going to the airport .


Its the same with the railway surely ?

You had received the ticket, so you read the T&Cs of it, not him.

I don't think it would be reasonable to obtain a special offer day ticket for a particular Company and then decide that you were going to use any Companies trains because you didn't comprehend the splitting up of BR.

I'll defend people for getting confused in a wide range of confusing situations, but this simply isn't one of them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To some extent, I'd agree if you were unfamiliar with a particular mode of transport, it would be reasonable to attempt to find out a bit of information about it before making a journey. I wouldn't agree that train travel is the same as airlines, but there are a few similarities (and many big differences).

All this is fine, but you are experts well used to train travel. There must be people who are unused to train travel, and when they do get around to taking a trip (maybe like my Dad they have not used the railway for many years) they expect to turn up at the station, buy a ticket and travel, and not be bombarded by a load of terms and conditions. It's only going on the train for gawd's sake, why do they need A-levels in ticketing, companies, terms, conditions and an eye on the clock?
I know my old man won't travel on a train again, he's 84 (but fit enough to travel) and finds it all overwhelming, that can't be right, surely? He tells me he likes buses, he has a card these days but before then the bus turned up, he paid the driver, and got where he wanted to go.
Kind of, er, easy.
People like us can whinge and moan about people not knowing the rights and wrongs of tickets. It's easy to forget it's only a bloody train, why make people pass examinations before they travel? Don't we WANT passengers?

 

[najaB]

There must be people who are unused to train travel, and when they do get around to taking a trip (maybe like my Dad they have not used the railway for many years) they expect to turn up at the station, buy a ticket and travel...

And those passengers will generally be sold the 'Any Permitted' ticket which will allow them to take pretty much any train. TOC-specific, route-specific and Advance tickets are discounted tickets, generally sold in advance, which offer cheaper travel but come with restrictions.

 

[richw]

All this is fine, but you are experts well used to train travel. There must be people who are unused to train travel, and when they do get around to taking a trip (maybe like my Dad they have not used the railway for many years) they expect to turn up at the station, buy a ticket and travel, and not be bombarded by a load of terms and conditions. It's only going on the train for gawd's sake, why do they need A-levels in ticketing, companies, terms, conditions and an eye on the clock?
I know my old man won't travel on a train again, he's 84 (but fit enough to travel) and finds it all overwhelming, that can't be right, surely? He tells me he likes buses, he has a card these days but before then the bus turned up, he paid the driver, and got where he wanted to go.
Kind of, er, easy.
People like us can whinge and moan about people not knowing the rights and wrongs of tickets. It's easy to forget it's only a bloody train, why make people pass examinations before they travel? Don't we WANT passengers?

This is so true.
Its also seeming the passengers fault when the ticket office doesn't explain ticket T+Cs or have them available and then passenger breaches them. I suspect would be classed as an unfair contract as if you don't know the T+Cs. How can you agree to a contract based on them if you aren't able to be made aware of them?
Recently I went to a station and asked for a ticket, and asked for reservations on set services. The ticket clerk automatically sold me an advance ticket, and not once made me aware of regulations I must travel on the service I asked for reservations. Didn't ask me if I needed flexibility or guarantee I would use those services. Had I not been knowledgeable due to my interest in the railway and ticketing I could easily have been caught out. An advance was suitable for me due to the earliest outbound being the only service to get me to destination on time, and returning on the last service of the day. I just fear what may have happened if someone without rail knowledge and needed flexibility was in that situation.

 

[Howardh]

This is so true.
Its also seeming the passengers fault when the ticket office doesn't explain ticket T+Cs or have them available and then passenger breaches them. I suspect would be classed as an unfair contract as if you don't know the T+Cs. How can you agree to a contract based on them if you aren't able to be made aware of them?
Recently I went to a station and asked for a ticket, and asked for reservations on set services. The ticket clerk automatically sold me an advance ticket, and not once made me aware of regulations I must travel on the service I asked for reservations. Didn't ask me if I needed flexibility or guarantee I would use those services. Had I not been knowledgeable due to my interest in the railway and ticketing I could easily have been caught out. An advance was suitable for me due to the earliest outbound being the only service to get me to destination on time, and returning on the last service of the day. I just fear what may have happened if someone without rail knowledge and needed flexibility was in that situation.

Be interesting to know how many of the ticket sellers and train conductors (aka guards) actually DO know the best/cheapest/most convenient ticket for your journey all the time, or even whether the ticket you have is correct. I bet the majority don't, and like us, rely on a website for the info (which could be wrong anyway). That's not a dig at the person, it's a dig at the system.

 

[richw]

Be interesting to know how many of the ticket sellers and train conductors (aka guards) actually DO know the best/cheapest/most convenient ticket for your journey all the time, or even whether the ticket you have is correct. I bet the majority don't, and like us, rely on a website for the info (which could be wrong anyway). That's not a dig at the person, it's a dig at the system.

The system is too complex. Lets have a fairly priced system that is easy to understand. If you travel peak say before xx:xx and between yy:yy and zz:zz you pay a % premium.

Under what logic can it possibly be cheaper to travel from A to B via X & Y, than a ticket from X to Y costs on the same train?

 

[muz379]

All this is fine, but you are experts well used to train travel. There must be people who are unused to train travel, and when they do get around to taking a trip (maybe like my Dad they have not used the railway for many years) they expect to turn up at the station, buy a ticket and travel, and not be bombarded by a load of terms and conditions. It's only going on the train for gawd's sake, why do they need A-levels in ticketing, companies, terms, conditions and an eye on the clock?
I know my old man won't travel on a train again, he's 84 (but fit enough to travel) and finds it all overwhelming, that can't be right, surely? He tells me he likes buses, he has a card these days but before then the bus turned up, he paid the driver, and got where he wanted to go.
Kind of, er, easy.
People like us can whinge and moan about people not knowing the rights and wrongs of tickets. It's easy to forget it's only a bloody train, why make people pass examinations before they travel? Don't we WANT passengers?

I would expect to just book my tickets online turn up at the airport and fly . But you cant do that otherwise youll end up having to pay a massive charge for overweight luggage or oversize hand luggage or something . Its just one of them things . You wouldn't embark on a 300 mile car journey to somewhere you dont know without looking at a map or using a sat nav .

I do agree at times it can be confusing for passengers . Part of that is because of the plethora of toc specific products . But to get rid of these some would argue would make the railway more expensive so in the trade off between more expensive and easier to understand we have what we have .

It isn't that difficult to ask someone at the ticket office about the particular journey it is you want to make especially when buying your ticket . take down their name if you are concerned about the legitimacy of what you are told . If you are taking a particular journey you only surely need to know restrictions pertaining to that journey at the times you are traveling . I get it all the time on the train when selling me tickets , people asking me what time they can come back / if they can stop of at A then continue onto B (break of journey) if they have to come back today /

I will also genuinely try and ask as many questions as I can to find out about when the person will be coming back or traveling etc before issuing a ticket .

Be interesting to know how many of the ticket sellers and train conductors (aka guards) actually DO know the best/cheapest/most convenient ticket for your journey all the time, or even whether the ticket you have is correct. I bet the majority don't, and like us, rely on a website for the info (which could be wrong anyway). That's not a dig at the person, it's a dig at the system.

There are some journey I know the ticketing for inside out . There are others I am not so sure about . The regular journeys I see people taking I know about the tickets for .If I am ever presented with a ticket and I am unsure of the validity or the person holding it challenges my understanding of its validity I will give them the benefit of the doubt , read up/ask a colleague about that ticket and then next time I will know . That to me represents good customer service


I do agree it is annoying when a member of staff gives you false information that leads to you getting caught out . And this is something I would like to see something done about

 

[Howardh]

I would expect to just book my tickets online turn up at the airport and fly . But you cant do that otherwise youll end up having to pay a massive charge for overweight luggage or oversize hand luggage or something . Its just one of them things . You wouldn't embark on a 300 mile car journey to somewhere you dont know without looking at a map or using a sat nav .

I do agree at times it can be confusing for passengers . Part of that is because of the plethora of toc specific products . But to get rid of these some would argue would make the railway more expensive so in the trade off between more expensive and easier to understand we have what we have .

It isn't that difficult to ask someone at the ticket office about the particular journey it is you want to make especially when buying your ticket . take down their name if you are concerned about the legitimacy of what you are told . If you are taking a particular journey you only surely need to know restrictions pertaining to that journey at the times you are traveling . I get it all the time on the train when selling me tickets , people asking me what time they can come back / if they can stop of at A then continue onto B (break of journey) if they have to come back today /

I will also genuinely try and ask as many questions as I can to find out about when the person will be coming back or traveling etc before issuing a ticket .



There are some journey I know the ticketing for inside out . There are others I am not so sure about . The regular journeys I see people taking I know about the tickets for .If I am ever presented with a ticket and I am unsure of the validity or the person holding it challenges my understanding of its validity I will give them the benefit of the doubt , read up/ask a colleague about that ticket and then next time I will know . That to me represents good customer service


I do agree it is annoying when a member of staff gives you false information that leads to you getting caught out . And this is something I would like to see something done about

You are saying T's and C's are *one of them things* and then, admitting, as an insider, they can stump you as much as the passenger.
let's go through the bits in bold.
1. Confusing for passengers. It's confusing for rail staff, never mind passengers.
2. Take down their name. Some use that is when they can deny they have ever had the conversation! Passengers need a hidden camera with sould to prove they are right.
3. How on earth is every passenger supposed to know every tiny rule that covers their journey? Is every rule printed on the back of a tiny BR ticket?
4. If you're not so sure, pity the walk-on customer!
5. Rail staff are unlikely to give out false information if ticketing wasn't do darned complicated.
Thanks for the answer and I'm genuinely not *having a go*, in fact the opposite, when you read into it it seems passengers and staff are singing from the same sheet.
ADDS - I suppose with my background, if I were half bothered I could easily become a lay magistrate. If, in my court, a TOC and a passenger were at odds over a ticket, I can't see many occasions when the TOC's would win their case. With all these rules and regulations, it possibly makes it more difficult to prove someone even entirely without a ticket at all is travellng illegally.

 

[reb0118]

I will also genuinely try to ask as many questions as I can to find out about when the person will be coming back or travelling &c. before issuing a ticket .

There are some journeys I know the ticketing for inside out . There are others I am not so sure about . The regular journeys I see people taking I know about the tickets for. If I am ever presented with a ticket that I am unsure of, or the person holding it challenges my understanding of its validity, then I will give them the benefit of the doubt, read up, or ask a colleague about that ticket. Then next time I will know. That to me represents good customer service.

I do agree that it is annoying when a member of staff gives you false information that leads to you getting caught out, and this is something I would like to see something done about

I could not agree more.

 

[yorkie]

The system is too complex. Lets have a fairly priced system that is easy to understand. If you travel peak say before xx:xx and between yy:yy and zz:zz you pay a % premium.

Under what logic can it possibly be cheaper to travel from A to B via X & Y, than a ticket from X to Y costs on the same train?

Feel free to post a new thread with your exact proposals, and give example fares and restrictions. I may ask some further questions for particular fares to test your theory

Perhaps you can create a structure that is easy to understand, and is acceptable to passengers, the TOCs and DfT, but if so you'll have to be a genius! Many have tried, no-one has yet succeeded. No-one will succeed, unless subsidy increases.

 

[muz379]

You are saying T's and C's are *one of them things* and then, admitting, as an insider, they can stump you as much as the passenger.
let's go through the bits in bold.
1. Confusing for passengers. It's confusing for rail staff, never mind passengers.
2. Take down their name. Some use that is when they can deny they have ever had the conversation! Passengers need a hidden camera with sould to prove they are right.
3. How on earth is every passenger supposed to know every tiny rule that covers their journey? Is every rule printed on the back of a tiny BR ticket?
4. If you're not so sure, pity the walk-on customer!
5. Rail staff are unlikely to give out false information if ticketing wasn't do darned complicated.
Thanks for the answer and I'm genuinely not *having a go*, in fact the opposite, when you read into it it seems passengers and staff are singing from the same sheet.
ADDS - I suppose with my background, if I were half bothered I could easily become a lay magistrate. If, in my court, a TOC and a passenger were at odds over a ticket, I can't see many occasions when the TOC's would win their case. With all these rules and regulations, it possibly makes it more difficult to prove someone even entirely without a ticket at all is traveling illegally.

The only reason I get stumped though is because of the vast quantity of routes I work over and the fact that I operate in 3 different pte areas at any one time . So its a lot of restrictions to keep yourself across .
take my flying example again . there is no way I could be across the T's & C's on every airline however I make sure damn sure I am on the one that I intend to fly on .
same with the example you gave of one off passengers , or commuters . You dont need to be across the restrictions on every single type of ticket on all journeys . Just the specific journey it is you intend to make . Railway staff however have to be aware of a lot more restrictions .

1.As I said some rail staff work over multiple PTE areas , and ticket office staff could sell a ticket to anywhere in the country so to expect a ticket office clerk in Manchester oxford road to have any idea about restrictions out of some obscure location they have never travelled to is stretching it a bit .

2.true and I understand why it can be frustrating that in a your word vs theirs situation theirs is favored by the TOC . To some staff though being asked their name can indeed sharpen their mind and make sure they are sure what they have said is correct . Also for all you know other passengers could have complained that that member of staff has given out duff info . then meaning your word is more believable

3. that could depend on the journey I guess , some journies and ticket types are straight forward . One thing that I dont understand is that if you put your journey details into national rail esquires it will tell you the cheapest ticket type that is valid for that journey -I know there are ways of getting that journey cheaper using some tips shared in the fares advice forums here . But they are generally the passengers that I would take a more abrupt stance with if they do have an invalid ticket and wouldn't be showing as much discretion to because as far as I am concerned if you are prepared to go to effort to employ tricks to get your tickets cheaper you should also make fully share what you are doing is valid . If you are not I find it much harder to believe that you have merely made a genuine mistake . But if you tomorrow wanted to travel from leeds to Manchester you could put that journey into NRE and buy the cheapest ticket - get the trains it tells you to get and you wouldnt have any problems ? or at least if you did you could argue that by following NRE's itinerary you are not to blame for holding an invalid ticket .

4.As I said some routes I am not sure on because I dont work them as often / I work in 3 pte areas and over several routes so its a lot to keep accross .passengers typically only travel over one regular route . or make a one off journey over one route . And like I said if I am unsure and the customer challenges my understanding of the restriction they get the benefit of the doubt and I do my research , if I see them in future I then know if their ticket is valid or not

5. I cant disagree with that , my job would be so much easier if there where just 4 types of ticket , a peak single and peak return and an off peak single and off peak return . But that would get rid of things like duo's , saver returns , advance fares so would you be prepared to pay more for your fares for a simpler system ?

Whilst I can see why as a lay magistrate you might be prepared to exonerate a passenger who is being prosecuted for mistakenly holding an invalid ticket , i see no reason why you would exonerate a passenger being prosecuted for not holding a ticket at all , especially if it is shown they walked past several opportunities to buy one . Every passenger who travels without a ticket costs passengers who are prepared to purchase tickets .Ofc this is notwithstanding you as a lay magistrate actually having a legal adviser who will tell you what the law is and you have no choice in following the law and to do otherwise would lead to your post as a lay magistrate being terminated

 

[yorkie]

I could not agree more.

Indeed!

Here's an example of a friendly guard doing just that, and after checking the NRE website, then making further enquiries about validity: Pontefract Stns to Leeds

None of this Norwich-Peterborough-York combo ticket problem type nonsense where the EC's most infamous Guard charged a new ticket when he wasn't sure of the conditions (he's done that numerous times before and since, and several of the victims have been rail staff. The most bizarre of which was rejecting a route: via Peterborough ticket via Peterborough due to a "negative easement")

I find most Guards if they are unsure, will accept the ticket. There's only a small number who work on the basis of charging people incorrectly. But they are out there, and some TOCs seem to tolerate it.

 

[reb0118]

How on earth is every passenger supposed to know every tiny rule that covers their journey? Is every rule printed on the back of a tiny BR ticket?

Do they really need to know every minuscule law that applies or just the basics that cover most day to day activities on the railways. Most reasonable people can work out the rights and wrongs of most situations that life throws at us - I do not think rail passengers are any less reasonable. Treat rail passengers with respect - they do not have to be wrapped in cotton wool. To take your argument to its logical conclusion you would have us never leaving our homes.

ADDS - I suppose with my background, if I were half bothered I could easily become a lay magistrate. If, in my court, a TOC and a passenger were at odds over a ticket, I can't see many occasions when the TOCs would win their case. With all these rules and regulations, it possibly makes it more difficult to prove someone even entirely without a ticket at all is travelling illegally.

And yet the TOCs do seem to win cases, some may even say on a frightfully regular basis. Maybe this is because the laws in force have been tested and proved robust. As as a Lay Magistrate you would of course work under the law and judge a case on the merits of the evidence laid before you and not on any pre held opinions. To do otherwise would be to risk censure from the higher courts.

 

[yorkie]

... .If, in my court, a TOC and a passenger were at odds over a ticket, I can't see many occasions when the TOC's would win their case.....

No comment unless you give me a specific example, this is too woolly to say.

If you're going back to your Northern special promotional ticket example you posted earlier, I'm sorry to say that I don't agree that TPE wouldn't win in court, if you refused to pay for a new ticket on TPE.

 

[TheEdge]

Be interesting to know how many of the ticket sellers and train conductors (aka guards) actually DO know the best/cheapest/most convenient ticket for your journey all the time, or even whether the ticket you have is correct. I bet the majority don't, and like us, rely on a website for the info (which could be wrong anyway). That's not a dig at the person, it's a dig at the system.

Of course not, 95% of the tickets I sell day in day out are the same. I know those like the back of my hand. But when someone asks for a Cromer to Dover via Leicester (yes, I did once get that!) then I'm not going to know. But then most of the time the tickets are fairly self explanatory, more often than not Avantix automatically hides most invalid and odd tickets presenting only the "normal" walk on fares.

The only time people seem to walk into trouble is when they are trying to be clever then get ****y when they get caught out. A very common split on the GEML is to split tickets from Ipswich and stations in Suffolk generally at Manningtree to commute on the cheap or use NSE cards. Then people have a habit of hopping on the 07:40 from Norwich or the 17:00 from London and getting all angry when they get caught and charged up when the train passes Manningtree at 80mph! Absolutely no sympathy there, if you are exploiting a loophole then you should make damn well sure you know where the edges of those loopholes are!

 

[nw1]

Well they'll just have to learn about the industry structure the hard way won't they. Ignorance of a rule does not provide an excuse to break that rule.

Can anyone who goes on about "learning things the hard way", and "ignorance is no excuse", honestly say that they have not made a mistake in their life? I'm not making a comment about whether the £1000 was right or wrong in this case, btw, but the "assumption of guilt" attitude made in many posts on here really does annoy me.

I have forgotten railcards, for example, in the past - luckily I realised before I bought the ticket, so I bought the full-price no-discount ticket... but if they'd tried to prosecute me for that I would have been exceedingly annoyed, to put it mildly. I'd hope no worse than PF would apply in such cases, but reading some things on here, it appears not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The railway industry has to take some responsibility for making train travel so complicated. Would anyone board a train knowing that they were in line for a £1,000 fine? It's a pretty reckless action.

A few weeks ago, I got surcharged £150 on a Virgin train from London to Liverpool and it WAS an honest mistake - I genuinely thought the 15.07 was an off-peak service but it wasn't. No barrier check at Euston so I got on oblivious.

Needless to say I wasn't best pleased and, partly in a spirit of revenge, the next time I did the journey I tried the London Midland service. I saved about £40, got a nice table seat so I could get some work done and, best of all, can take my bike with me without pesky reservations. I'll probably never go back to Virgin and as I make the journey about a dozen times a year, Mr Branson has just lost £1,000.

Agree completely with this post. I mean, 15:07 peak! How many people finish work at 1445 (guestimate of the latest you could finish to make a 15:07 train - probably more like 1415 to 1430 in London...)

There is a lot of comments on these forums about people who unintentionally break the rules, but relatively little about the moral wrong of extending the peak so that the only time considered off-peak by all TOCs is the three hours between 1200 and 1500!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course not, 95% of the tickets I sell day in day out are the same. I know those like the back of my hand. But when someone asks for a Cromer to Dover via Leicester (yes, I did once get that!) then I'm not going to know. But then most of the time the tickets are fairly self explanatory, more often than not Avantix automatically hides most invalid and odd tickets presenting only the "normal" walk on fares.

The only time people seem to walk into trouble is when they are trying to be clever then get ****y when they get caught out. A very common split on the GEML is to split tickets from Ipswich and stations in Suffolk generally at Manningtree to commute on the cheap or use NSE cards. Then people have a habit of hopping on the 07:40 from Norwich or the 17:00 from London and getting all angry when they get caught and charged up when the train passes Manningtree at 80mph! Absolutely no sympathy there, if you are exploiting a loophole then you should make damn well sure you know where the edges of those loopholes are!

That said, I do the "Banbury split" thing when travelling up north on XC, to take advantage of the Network card. Recently there was a major incident at Banbury meaning nothing was running through there, and they hadn't organised buses yet - but I asked two separate Virgin staff (one station, one train) at New St whether my split ticket would be valid on VT to London (which they were recommending people travel by). Both said yes - even though I didn't travel through Banbury at all! Don't know if those staff were correct - they may have been given there was an incident - but good on them for their attitude I say

 

[najaB]

I'm not making a comment about whether the £1000 was right or wrong in this case, btw, but the "assumption of guilt" attitude made in many posts on here really does annoy me.

I think you're getting caught up on the headline £1000 figure. To repeat earlier posts: there were 39 people in the party so the actual charge was about £25 per head. Which was the difference between the tickets they held and the tickets that were valid on that train.

So, technically, the £1000 was wrong - they should have been charged for brand-new tickets which cost over twice as much!

If you take the £1000 out of the picture, it boils down to "Man got on wrong train with cheaper ticket, guard gives him an excess so that he's paid the right fare." A non-story if you ask me.

 

[Haywain]

Agree completely with this post. I mean, 15:07 peak! How many people finish work at 1445 (guestimate of the latest you could finish to make a 15:07 train - probably more like 1415 to 1430 in London...)

There is a lot of comments on these forums about people who unintentionally break the rules, but relatively little about the moral wrong of extending the peak so that the only time considered off-peak by all TOCs is the three hours between 1200 and 1500!

Peak times are not always about people who are at their main place of work. For long-distance operators serving London in particular the afternoon peak is significantly about business travellers who are returning to the provinces after meetings and the like. The commuter peak doesn't start until later, which is why the peak for more local operators starts later. Different types of traveller create different peak periods.

 

[najaB]

There is a lot of comments on these forums about people who unintentionally break the rules, but relatively little about the moral wrong of extending the peak so that the only time considered off-peak by all TOCs is the three hours between 1200 and 1500!

Different TOCs have peak flows at different times - there's no one definition of "peak" that would be suitable to all of them. Offhand, I can't think of a TOC whose peak times in a given direction from any station cover more than 6 out of 24 hours.

 

[muz379]

Can anyone who goes on about "learning things the hard way", and "ignorance is no excuse", honestly say that they have not made a mistake in their life? I'm not making a comment about whether the £1000 was right or wrong in this case, btw, but the "assumption of guilt" attitude made in many posts on here really does annoy me.

I have forgotten railcards, for example, in the past - luckily I realised before I bought the ticket, so I bought the full-price no-discount ticket... but if they'd tried to prosecute me for that I would have been exceedingly annoyed, to put it mildly. I'd hope no worse than PF would apply in such cases, but reading some things on here, it appears not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Agree completely with this post. I mean, 15:07 peak! How many people finish work at 1445 (guestimate of the latest you could finish to make a 15:07 train - probably more like 1415 to 1430 in London...)

There is a lot of comments on these forums about people who unintentionally break the rules, but relatively little about the moral wrong of extending the peak so that the only time considered off-peak by all TOCs is the three hours between 1200 and 1500!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That said, I do the "Banbury split" thing when travelling up north on XC, to take advantage of the Network card. Recently there was a major incident at Banbury meaning nothing was running through there, and they hadn't organised buses yet - but I asked two separate Virgin staff (one station, one train) at New St whether my split ticket would be valid on VT to London (which they were recommending people travel by). Both said yes - even though I didn't travel through Banbury at all! Don't know if those staff were correct - they may have been given there was an incident - but good on them for their attitude I say

The problem is though the rules cannot differentiate between those that have made an honest mistake and those that are acting dishonestly . How many people genuinely forget their rail cards or genuinely forget it has expired . And how many just use that as an excuse .

Unless you are a mind reader sometimes when you are rail staff you have to make a judgement call on if you think the person is being honest or not . sometimes you wont even make this judgement call you will just apply the rules as they are . Toc specific tickers are I think one situation when I would apply these rules because even if you have made a genuine mistake my TOC has the right surely to earn some revenue from carrying you , which they might not if you hold a toc specific ticket .

If you are suggesting the railway should just let people off without applying the rules you are then suggesting that we should limit tocs rights towards collecting revenue that is rightfully theirs and believe every word a passenger says . This unbalances the situation the other way and puts passengers on the upper foot .