£330 train fine for having an expired railcard?!

[jspr]

Hi would someone be able to help give me some information about a fine I've received please as I think £330 for my situation seems unfair.

I was travelling on a SWR train with a ticket I had bought with a railcard applied to it. The train guard came up and scanned my ticket and asked for my railcard, it had expired 4 months prior. I did not know it had expired!! I hadn't received any email or notification from the Trainline app to say it was expiring / expired. The Trainline app actually keeps the railcard applied.

I asked and asked if the train guard would let me off, I suggested buying a new railcard on the spot or a new ticket. He refused both and took my details. I received this letter in the post.

I haven't paid the fine yet, because I have had to save money to pay it, as it is such a large sum. I spoke to someone at work about it and they suggested putting it on this forum to see if anyone has had similar experiences / any advice.

Thank you in advance

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly, what journey were you making? This will help us to understand if the fare due is calculated correctly.

 

[jspr]

London Waterloo to Eastleigh. I paid £26.50 for a return with the railcard reduction applied

 

[Titfield]

Have you travelled previously with an expired railcard and if so on what routes?

NB SWR can research your ticket purchasing history.

EDIT

The fare charged seems to me to be 2 X Open returns at £90.40 each.

This fare would apply 3 Dec 2023 to 4 Feb 2024.

No credit has been given for the fare(s) already paid.

 

[Gloster]

I suggest you obscure the reference number in the image.

Have you made any other journeys on any part of the National Rail network since the card expired, even if it was another company and you were not stopped?

 

[jspr]

Have you travelled previously with an expired railcard and if so on what routes?

NB SWR can research your ticket purchasing history.)

I was literally just checking this as I hadn't thought about that. With an expired railcard I bought return ticket from London Waterloo to Eastleigh (£23.85), a single from London Waterloo to Eastleigh (£9.70), a single from Eastleigh to London Waterloo (£12.45). And then also the £26.50 journey from my first post. So £72.50 in total. I also had no idea about the expiry with these. I am not someone who cheats the system in these ways and I feel pretty guilty about the situation :-/

I suggest you obscure the reference number in the image.

Have you made any other journeys on any part of the National Rail network since the card expired, even if it was another company and you were not stopped?

Just did it, thank you

Have you travelled previously with an expired railcard and if so on what routes?

NB SWR can research your ticket purchasing history.

EDIT

The fare charged seems to me to be 2 X Open returns at £90.40 each.

This fare would apply 3 Dec 2023 to 4 Feb 2024.

No credit has been given for the fare(s) already paid.

So do you think that they have calucated it correctly? The £150 operation and administrative charges seem a bit cheeky?

 

[methecooldude]

So do you think that they have calucated it correctly? The £150 operation and administrative charges seem a bit cheeky?

That's about right for SWR, someone has to pay the cost of the staff investigating the case

 

[Gloster]

The probablty is that SWR charged you the full Anytime Single for each journey, i.e. two Single fares for a return journey. I think that makes eight times the Waterloo-Eastleigh Anytime Single in total for you; no allowance is made for what you did pay. My feeling from reading this forum is that SWR tends to charge slightly more for its investigation costs than most companies, although I don’t know why; note: this is my unscientific opinion.

EDIT: it is possible they have calculated it in a different way to produce the total of £330, but that is better than what is often charged.

EDIT II: But see #18.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Have you travelled previously with an expired railcard and if so on what routes?

NB SWR can research your ticket purchasing history.

EDIT

The fare charged seems to me to be 2 X Open returns at £90.40 each.

This fare would apply 3 Dec 2023 to 4 Feb 2024.

No credit has been given for the fare(s) already paid.

Seems a lot. The Anytime Return is £50.40. Anytime Day Single is £47.40. Anytime 1st Day Single is £80.50.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Seems a lot. The Anytime Return is £50.40. Anytime Day Single is £47.40. Anytime 1st Day Single is £80.50.

Anytime Single fares are typically used, so 2 x 47.40 for each return trip.

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems a lot. The Anytime Return is £50.40. Anytime Day Single is £47.40. Anytime 1st Day Single is £80.50.

BR Fares suggests the Anytime day return is currently £92.80. It’s possible the journey planner has quoted a return fare that is a mix of singles and/or advance.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I am not someone who cheats the system in these ways and I feel pretty guilty about the situation :-/

@jspr. Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, seems you've been travelling on more than the one occasion with inappropriately discounted tickets and have now been caught doing same. Just how long did you think that your one year railcard was valid for? Whilst it was ultimately your responsibility to check the expiry date, have to say that, yet again, Trainline haven't really helped.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A

BR Fares suggests the Anytime day return is currently £92.80. It’s possible the journey planner has quoted a return fare that is a mix of singles and/or advance.

Anytime Open Return is the outrageous £94.80.

Anytime Day Return is £50.40.

All according to BRFares.

Can't see an obvious justification for £180.80 and they don't state that they've reviewed previous journey history, which they usually do in such retrospective cases.

EDIT: the fares have changed since the offence. The Anytime Open Return was indeed £90.40 at the time. Why they've charged double this is another matter.

 

[swt_passenger]

A

Anytime Open Return is the outrageous £94.80.

Anytime Day Return is £50.40.

All according to BRFares.

Can't see an obvious justification for £180.80 and they don't state that they've reviewed previous journey history, which they usually do in such retrospective cases.

EDIT: the fares have changed since the offence. The Anytime Open Return was indeed £90.40 at the time. Why they've charged double this is another matter.

Sorry, my mistake, living down near Eastleigh I automatically looked at the origin Eastleigh towards Waterloo direction.

 

[WesternLancer]

Anytime Single fares are typically used, so 2 x 47.40 for each return trip.

Yes. No doubt they charge the highest price ticket to create an element of the punitive about it so people don’t forget or do the same again.

 

[ikcdab]

I assume you want to avoid the court route.
In that case, having read whats above and that you travelled several times with the expired Railcard, are you now content that the £180 is the correct figure? If so, then you just need to pay.
If not, then you could write back and say that whilst you accept the out of court settlement, you would like a breakdown of the £180.80.
But also bear in mind the 21 day clock that would remain ticking. If you get no response within that time frame you may have to pay and then discuss with them afterwards. But that will be difficult to do.

 

[electrostar357]

The closest I've got to how they've calculated the total cost of £180.80 is as follows, and this is presuming that you bought all these tickets online and they've delved into your purchasing history:

- £100 penalty fare (par the course)
- £89.60 which is based on the journeys you mentioned in post #6. That figure is the difference between what you paid and what the full anytime single fare was at the time for that journey, so it seems (to me anyway) that they're after the excesses rather than the full fares.

The total is 80p more than what they've asked for though so I could have got these numbers a bit wrong in some way as I'm currently sat at my desk at work so if anybody has any advice on improving that figure, by all means I'm all ears.

 

[Gloster]

SWR are asking for £180.80 for the tickets and £150 for costs. The journeys made without a valid railcard appear to be two Waterloo-Eastleigh Returns and one Single in each direction.

I leave others to do the maths, but I think the OP would do well to take the offer

 

[janb]

Anytime Single fares are typically used, so 2 x 47.40 for each return trip.

Yes, at the time of the offence the single was £45.20 which would fit with 4 times that amount.

 

[Titfield]

SWR are asking for £180.80 for the tickets and £150 for costs. The journeys made without a valid railcard appear to be two Waterloo-Eastleigh Returns and one Single in each direction.

I leave others to do the maths, but I think the OP would do well to take the offer

Yes, at the time of the offence the single was £45.20 which would fit with 4 times that amount.

The problem is that querying the methodology (use of anytime singles, no allowance for fares paid) may "encourage SWR to withdraw the offer.

Likewise the admin charge whilst it appears high appears to be in line with the admin charges made by TOCS generally.

Sadly it is an expensive lesson but I fear rejecting the offer will just result in a more expensive outcome with other consequences.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The problem is that querying the methodology (use of anytime singles, no allowance for fares paid) may "encourage SWR to withdraw the offer.

Likewise the admin charge whilst it appears high appears to be in line with the admin charges made by TOCS generally.

Sadly it is an expensive lesson but I fear rejecting the offer will just result in a more expensive outcome with other consequences.

And encourage them to look back through the last four months of purchasing history, if any.