£36 penalty at Stansted, worth appealing or not?

[AnkleBoots]

A friend was penalty fared at Stansted, coming from Liverpool St. He was charged £36 but held a 1-6 Travelcard on Oyster.

I believe that £36 is the correct amount from Liverpool St but from Zone 6 it should be much less.

Is it worth appealing or am I mistaken?

 

[swt_passenger]

A friend was penalty fared at Stansted, coming from Liverpool St. He was charged £36 but held a 1-6 Travelcard on Oyster.

I believe that £36 is the correct amount from Liverpool St but from Zone 6 it should be much less.

Is it worth appealing or am I mistaken?

The last amendment to the regulations only allows for the Penalty Fare to be charged from the origin, IIRC.

A thread a few weeks ago in this forum mentioned someone had been charged a PF from Reading to Theale on the Newbury line even though their ticket (to Basingstoke) was already valid as far as Reading West. In the discussion it transpired they should have been PFd from Paddington, as per the rules.

Difficult to work out if that is intentional or a serious flaw in the new regulations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Unfortunately, as per Regulation 9 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 it is indeed correct to issue a Penalty Fare on the basis of the "full single fare" (note this is a different kind of "full single fare" to the kind the NRCoT talks about) from the boarding station, even if a valid ticket was held for part of the journey.

However, there may well be other grounds of appeal, particularly including signage. Having previously used the Stansted Express on a number of occasions, the Penalty Fare signage when entering the gateline/platform is woeful in size and prominence, and I am almost sure it will not include the required wordings.

If your friend wishes to take the matter further, he would be well advised to pay the Penalty Fare, and to then submit an appeal against the Penalty Fare on the basis of any deficiencies he finds when comparing the signage present at Liverpool Street to the requirements set out in Paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 of the Regulations.

If he wishes, he could (or anyone else who happens to be passing through Liverpool Street station who is reading this) take pictures of any signage that is present, and upload it to here. We will then be able to analyse the compliance (or otherwise) compared to the requirements of the Regulations.

 

[furlong]

The question to ask is: Why did your friend not have a ticket? For example, was he confused by some information provided by the railway or was he hoping he'd get away without paying? If the latter, just write it off and move on. But if he feels he behaved honestly throughout, despite not using available ticketing facilities, intending to pay the correct fare at all times during the journey, but the penalty was unfair for some reason, then yes, appeal on those grounds together with any others, such as the regulations not being followed if that turns out to be the case. You can appeal up to 3 times and only the 3rd (final) appeal has the freedom to consider any evidence it thinks relevant - the first two appeals are narrow ones so in certain cases you won't get a fair hearing until that third appeal.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A friend was penalty fared at Stansted, coming from Liverpool St. He was charged £36 but held a 1-6 Travelcard on Oyster.

I believe that £36 is the correct amount from Liverpool St but from Zone 6 it should be much less.

Is it worth appealing or am I mistaken?

The cost of an Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to Boundary Zone 6 is #17.00, the Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to London Terminals is 18.10. Plus 20.00 Penalty Fare = 36.00 sounds about right (if he traveled pre 02 Jan 19).

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/penalty-fares

Please make sure you buy a valid ticket for your entire journey before you travel. Otherwise, it could cost you quite a bit extra.

If you don't have a valid ticket or Permit to Travel with you, you may have to pay a Penalty Fare. It will be at least £20 or the full single fare to the next station stop. That's in addition to the usual single fare to your destination station if you decide to continue your journey.

If its been calculated on the London Terminals fare not the Boundary Zone 6 and you want to quibble over c1.00 its your friends call.

 

[30907]

The cost of an Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to Boundary Zone 6 is #17.00, the Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to London Terminals is 18.10. Plus 20.00 Penalty Fare = 36.00 sounds about right (if he traveled pre 02 Jan 19).

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/penalty-fares


If its been calculated on the London Terminals fare not the Boundary Zone 6 and you want to quibble over c1.00 its your friends call.

Pedantically, isn't the PF in this case twice the Anytime Single, so 34 vs 36.20?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Pedantically, isn't the PF in this case twice the Anytime Single, so 34 vs 36.20?

Its the PF (20.00) plus the cost of the Anytime Single as they choose to go through to their destination.

 

[30907]

Its the PF (20.00) plus the cost of the Anytime Single as they choose to go through to their destination.

I stand corrected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notably this means the £20 is all that would be refunded by an appeal, as the latter is the correct fare sold on board.

 

[Hadders]

If the train called at Tottenham Hale then the PF should be charged from there as a Zone 1-6 Travelcard is valid for travel between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale.

 

[221129]

If the train called at Tottenham Hale then the PF should be charged from there as a Zone 1-6 Travelcard is valid for travel between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale.

That isn't what the penalty fare rules say.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If its been calculated on the London Terminals fare not the Boundary Zone 6 and you want to quibble over c1.00 its your friends call.

If charging from Boundary Zone 6 were the correct method, and it would have resulted in a lower Penalty Fare, then it would definitely have been a strong ground of appeal, as the Penalty Fare amount can't be changed after issue. However, issuing the Penalty Fare in relation to the journey made from where you board the train, as opposed to from the last station your ticket is valid to, is the correct procedure (unfortunately for passengers).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Notably this means the £20 is all that would be refunded by an appeal, as the latter is the correct fare sold on board.

We have been told that the friend was issued with the Penalty Fare at Stansted. Thus there is no question of deciding to go further and only being eligible to pay the undiscounted Anytime Single as a result. The Penalty Fare was (assuming it was for £36.20 and not £36.00) issued correctly in terms of the amount, and a successful appeal would result in it being due back in full.

 

[AnkleBoots]

Thank you for your answers.

The journey occurred after 2 Jan, did the rules change on this date?

I don't understand whether the calculation is 2*Anytime Single, or Anytime Single + £20.

My friend expected to be able to buy an extension ticket onboard.

It seems harsh on the passenger that the TOC has benefitted from not having a guard, by charging more at the arrival station.

I will enquire with my friend as to the signage and whether he would seek to appeal on this basis.

I don't understand why a Tottenham Hale to Stansted Anytime Single is cheaper than a BZ6 to Stansted Anytime Single.

 

[najaB]

My friend expected to be able to buy an extension ticket onboard.

Where facilities exist, passengers should pay for all required tickets before boarding. Failing that, your friend should have alighted at the last station that the train called at where his ticket would have been valid.

 

[furlong]

So what is the difference between appeals 1 and 2 compared to appeal 3. Is appeal 3 more independent?

Yes. While the powers available to each level appeal are the same, very unhelpfully the train companies have implied that they will interpret the regulations narrowly in respect of the first two levels of appeal and not use some of the freedom available to them to grant appeals. The final appeals body is independent and the train companies accepted it cannot be similarly voluntarily constrained.

7.3 Final Stage Appeal
...They may also consider mitigating circumstances, outside the normal rules, which could impact the outcome of the appeal. This "reasonableness test" will allow for situations outside the scope of the rules to be considered.

(The regulations make no such distinction - all 3 appeal levels should consider such factors equally.)

 

[furlong]

The journey occurred after 2 Jan, did the rules change on this date?

The annual fares increase might lead to small differences in the numbers.

I don't understand whether the calculation is 2*Anytime Single

Under the current regulations, it is twice the single (in this case there is only an Anytime fare) from Liverpool St. to Stansted. No credit can be offered for a ticket that only covers part of the journey.

I will enquire with my friend as to the signage and whether he would seek to appeal on this basis.

There are strict rules for signage before boarding the train which permit the train company to assume there was a deliberate attempt to evade the fare and charge the penalty. The reasoning is along the lines that no honest person would ignore the signs and so everyone who does is dishonest unless they can prove otherwise. If the signage is not compliant at the station where boarding, no penalty fares can be charged. Many stations do not seem to be compliant, but the train companies still seem to get away with charging the penalties to people they caught out.

 

[6Gman]

Thank you for your answers.

The journey occurred after 2 Jan, did the rules change on this date?

I don't understand whether the calculation is 2*Anytime Single, or Anytime Single + £20.

My friend expected to be able to buy an extension ticket onboard.

It seems harsh on the passenger that the TOC has benefitted from not having a guard, by charging more at the arrival station.

I will enquire with my friend as to the signage and whether he would seek to appeal on this basis.

I don't understand why a Tottenham Hale to Stansted Anytime Single is cheaper than a BZ6 to Stansted Anytime Single.

What is meant by an "extension ticket" in this context?

I appreciate that it is possible to "excess" a ticket held to a more distant destination but I have always understood this should be done before departure (if possible and facilities exist) and certainly before the expiry of the held ticket.

Had he any previous experience of buying such a ticket onboard in the past?

 

[AnkleBoots]

What is meant by an "extension ticket" in this context?

I appreciate that it is possible to "excess" a ticket held to a more distant destination but I have always understood this should be done before departure (if possible and facilities exist) and certainly before the expiry of the held ticket.

Had he any previous experience of buying such a ticket onboard in the past?

Tottenham Hale to Stansted.

Yes, he had bought such tickets before elsewhere in the country (ie not with a zone 1-6 Travelcard) travelling from stations without ticket offices.

 

[AnkleBoots]

Am not trying to defend him, I think it was a relatively light punishment, and I understand the importance of buying before you board especially from fully staffed stations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Tottenham Hale to Stansted.

Yes, he had bought such tickets before elsewhere in the country (ie not with a zone 1-6 Travelcard) travelling from stations without ticket offices.

Had he boarded at a station without available facilities to buy an extension (i.e. a ticket machine but no facilities to sell Boundary Zone tickets), then it is perhaps less likely he would have been issued with a Penalty Fare, though any such Penalty Fare issued might still be valid.

I think in this case, if there is any argument as to the Penalty Fare being invalid, it will likely be from the signage, and not from the amount, or issuing origin, of the Penalty Fare.

 

[island]

However, issuing the Penalty Fare in relation to the journey made from where you board the train, as opposed to from the last station your ticket is valid to, is not the correct procedure (unfortunately for passengers).

I think you’ve got an extra “not” in there. The Penalty Fare is to be issued from where the passenger joined the train.

 

[gray1404]

There is a rule in the PF regulations that state it should be from the station the train last called at if the RPI cannot ascertain where the customer boarded. Although is a RPI entitled to not issue a PF i the customer will not give all the details asked for?

I think this is a flaw in the PF regulations that needs changing at the next revision. It is not right a customer be charged from where they boarded if their ticket had some validity. It should be from where the ticket was no longer valid.

 

[island]

I think if the passenger fails or refuses to specify where they boarded, this will constitute a failure of the attitude test and the passenger will be dealing with prosecution rather than a Penalty Fare.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think you’ve got an extra “not” in there. The Penalty Fare is to be issued from where the passenger joined the train.

Yes, corrected.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think if the passenger fails or refuses to specify where they boarded, this will constitute a failure of the attitude test and the passenger will be dealing with prosecution rather than a Penalty Fare.

Indeed, although there are certain circumstances where that would be advantageous to the passenger (e.g. being issued with a Penalty Fare for not using facilities that didn't cater to their intended payment method, or for breaching a time/route restriction), if prosecution is not possible.

 

[gray1404]

I think if the passenger fails or refuses to specify where they boarded, this will constitute a failure of the attitude test and the passenger will be dealing with prosecution rather than a Penalty Fare.

I have heard RPIs asking for a passengers date of birth and to sign a PF notice. Both of these I would be unhappy to do. Would such a refusal of these mean they could take away the offer of a PF and report. My understanding is that you are only obliged to give your name and address.

Also as you are not required to wait around while they check your details do they have to give you the notice do you can pay it if you say you do not wish to wait?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have heard RPIs asking for a passengers date of birth and to sign a PF notice. Both of these I would be unhappy to do. Would such a refusal of these mean they could take away the offer of a PF and report. My understanding is that you are only obliged to give your name and address.

Also as you are not required to wait around while they check your details do they have to give you the notice do you can pay it if you say you do not wish to wait?

Most likely DoB is requested where the dispute surrounds the potentially incorrect use of a child fare or age-restricted Railcard or similar.

 

[island]

I have heard RPIs asking for a passengers date of birth and to sign a PF notice. Both of these I would be unhappy to do. Would such a refusal of these mean they could take away the offer of a PF and report. My understanding is that you are only obliged to give your name and address.

Also as you are not required to wait around while they check your details do they have to give you the notice do you can pay it if you say you do not wish to wait?

It’s a bit of a grey area. Nothing requires you to give them your DOB or sign the notice (or give ID for that matter), nor to wait whilst they verify your details. But if you’ve committed an offence, nothing requires them to deal with you by the more lenient route of a Penalty Fare rather than reporting for prosecution.

 

[221129]

I have heard RPIs asking for a passengers date of birth and to sign a PF notice. Both of these I would be unhappy to do. Would such a refusal of these mean they could take away the offer of a PF and report. My understanding is that you are only obliged to give your name and address.

Also as you are not required to wait around while they check your details do they have to give you the notice do you can pay it if you say you do not wish to wait?

If you were being difficult for No reason I would probably suspect there is more going on and submit a TIR for further investigation and withdraw the penalty fare.