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£85m train link between Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations approved

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PhilipW

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Thee is much publicity today saying that construction of the new chord will cut the journey times from Liverpool to Leeds as trains can then be routed via Victoria. THis is even being spread about by Network Rail itself.

What utter rubbish.

The journey can could already be cut now if trains are routed via Chat Moss and Victoria.

The trains take longer because they are routed via Warrington Central and Piccadilly.

The new chord in itself will not cut the times; it is the routing.
 
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DiscoSteve

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You need to read the Northern Way / Northern Hub (whatever its called) documents.

To my mind it basically allows a route from the NE (Leeds/Bradford etc) to the South of Manchester and Manchester Airport - you save on movements across the throat of Piccadilly and reversing (but increase traffic through Platforms 13 and 14)

gripe time now - you still won't be able to get to the airport from Stockport without going into Piccadilly first!

But a (tight) chord between the CLC line and the Styal line where they cross in Gatley would give that AND allow Leeds/Bradford trains to get to Manchester Airport without going anywhere near the City Centre (via the little used Guide Bridge/Stockport line)
 

CosherB

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The lines between Piccadilly and Deansgate are at max capacity now, with many delays at peak times with trains queuing to get through. How will the extra traffic this chord would bring be accomodated?
 

WatcherZero

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Theres supposed to be two more through platforms built at Piccadilly and the platforms would be directly linked with the opposite four at Oxford Road (i.e. no signals inbetween), the track would remain two track but much reduced crossing moves. Meanwhile not all trains would stop at Deansgate.
 

Whistler40145

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What Manchester requires is a line linking Manchester Airport/Styal line to the Stockport-Guide Bridge line to reduce congestion @ Ardwick
 

northwichcat

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What Manchester requires is a line linking Manchester Airport/Styal line to the Stockport-Guide Bridge line to reduce congestion @ Ardwick

Two new Airport links were proposed in the 1990s:

1. East link: Allowing services to run from the WCML and South Yorks to Stockport-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly.
2. West link: Allowing services from Cheshire, North Wales and the WCML to run to Northwich-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly. (Link would be built from Mobberley to Manchester Airport.)

Proposal 1 was rejected. Proposal 2 was seen as viable for the future, it was due to be reviewed in the 2014-2019 CP. It wasn't specifically mentioned in the Manchester Hub proposals but a doubling of frequency between Northwich and Manchester is mentioned, despite a lack of paths through Stockport.

Proposal 2 would allow the following new routes:
* West Midlands/Crewe-Northwich-Manchester Airport-Manchester
* North Wales/Chester-Northwich-Manchester Airport-Manchester
* Liverpool-Liverpool South Parkway-Runcorn-Northwich-Manchester Airport-Manchester

Obviously on reaching Manchester services could continue to Lancashire and Yorkshire opposed to terminating there.
 

CosherB

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The chord would cut off main line access to MoSI. No more visits by 'big engines' :(. (Tornado was the last, with the royal train; I got to sit in the driver's seat!).
 

Statto

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Thee is much publicity today saying that construction of the new chord will cut the journey times from Liverpool to Leeds as trains can then be routed via Victoria. THis is even being spread about by Network Rail itself.

What utter rubbish.

The journey can could already be cut now if trains are routed via Chat Moss and Victoria.

The trains take longer because they are routed via Warrington Central and Piccadilly.

The new chord in itself will not cut the times; it is the routing.

I agree thats laughable, Liverpool-Leeds via Warrington trains will have to reverse at Deansgate or Ox Rd to get to Man Vic, as even with these plans theres no chord linking trains from Warrington Central to Man Vic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The only was to speed up Liverpool-Leeds trains is to route them via Chat Moss, but then that will mean TPE losing custom from Warrington, were TPE can be standing room only & i can't see that happening
 

WatcherZero

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Seems to be thinking is route the express services away from Warrington and provide it with new stopper services.
 

Jonny

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Ah,but using it would take away the conflicts between Mcr Piccadilly<>Stockport and Mcr Airport <> Mcr Picc <> Leeds Services. Also, if the majority of Transpennine Services were routed over the Ashton Line, then the track through Stalybridge could be re-aligned for higher speeds as well as making Rochdale/Calder Valley a more viable diversionary/alternative route.
 

cslusarc

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What is missing from this announcement is that Network Rail should have annouced another segment of electrification of the North TransPennine route from Manchester Victoria to Leeds, from Leeds to Colton Junction, and from Leeds / Temple Hirst Junction to Hull.
 

Whistler40145

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Please correct me if I am wrong, only the Chat Moss line is being electrified & not the line via Warrington Central?
 

Invincibles

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The other curve at Ardwick should be rebuilt to allow trains from Victoria in to the eastern bays at Piccadilly, but that is a different issue.

I think this idea is sensible and the routing of the Liverpool - Leeds services via Chat Moss does make a lot of sense.

I suppose the main purpose of this curve is to say "for Leeds trains use MCV" without breaking connections with trains at Manchester Piccadilly. People talk a lot about simplifying services in this way and so by having trains routed from the airport to stalybridge via Pic, Ox Rd and Vic, you have removed a lot of confusion from peoples minds.

Also by providing this link it will only be the Crewe - MIA - Pic and MIA - Pic - Cleethorpes that does not use 13/14 at Pic.

There is nothing you can do about the Cleethorpes train as it needs to get into the main part of Pic to get back out to Stockport. The local train could easily run to Vic instead as I assume this will all be electrified (although I would wait until the bays are finished)

All that is then needed is for:

* The Liverpool - Norwich to be split
* The North Wales - Man Pic to run through to the airport
* The Preston - Hazel Grove sent to Victoria instead

Then you have every train from platform 13 going to the airport, every train from 14 coming from the airport.

The sense of doing that is very clear as 13/14 can be reconfigured to be suitable for airport trains (which could be done quite easily I think)
 

Whistler40145

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I would have included the line via Warrington Central in the project for several reasons.

1 If the Chat Moss line is closed for Engineering Works & also the line to Weaver Jn is shut, London Euston services wouldn't require to be Diesel hauled.
2 A handy electrified route for freight from Garston
 

PhilipW

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Electrifying the Chat Moss route does automatically give two useful diversionary routes.

1) Weaver Junction to Liverpool via Earlstown when the direct route via Runcorn is closed.
2) Crewe to Newton-le-Willows and Preston via Manchester Piccadilly and Chat Moss when the line through Warrington Bank Quay is closed.

In 2016 when the Manchester - Bolton - Euxton Junction route is electrified, this will give further diversionary flexibility between Crewe and Preston.

All good news
 

tbtc

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Also by providing this link it will only be the Crewe - MIA - Pic and MIA - Pic - Cleethorpes that does not use 13/14 at Pic.

There is nothing you can do about the Cleethorpes train as it needs to get into the main part of Pic to get back out to Stockport. The local train could easily run to Vic instead as I assume this will all be electrified (although I would wait until the bays are finished)

My prediction is that the Crewe service will be tagged on to an existing 13/14 route (e.g. Crewe -Airport - Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool) once the wiring is completed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would have included the line via Warrington Central in the project for several reasons.

1 If the Chat Moss line is closed for Engineering Works & also the line to Weaver Jn is shut, London Euston services wouldn't require to be Diesel hauled

Its a long way to electrify just for the sake of diversions (when so many "core" routes are unwired still). The best argument for doing it is the withdrawl of the Pacers (which do the stoppers)
 

Whistler40145

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Is there any spare land between Longsight CS & Ardwick to build a spur towards Ashburys?

This would then provide a link from Stockport/Manchester Airport for a Victoria service.
 

Invincibles

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My prediction is that the Crewe service will be tagged on to an existing 13/14 route (e.g. Crewe -Airport - Piccadilly - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool) once the wiring is completed

That would make a lot of sense.

I just think that if 13/14 become airport only, and the only platforms that trains using the airport use then the whole line can be run like the Thameslink core meaning much higher capacity through Oxford Road and Deansgate.

(Gaps would occur where the Liverpool to Oxford Road terminators run into platform 5 at Oxford Road)

The only real problem with this is the stopping train to the airport would eat up paths, so it may be a case of longer distance trains making one stop (each at the same time to stop catching the one in front up - so first one behind the stopper does Gatley, the one behind that East Didsbury, the one behind that Burnage and the one behind that Mauldeth Road) and then all stopping at Heald Green to keep the spacing. One for the planners anyway.

Thinking about the Liverpool - Norwich, is it possible it could be routed through Manchester Victoria and Ashburys given that TPE would no longer need the paths through East Manchester it might be possible to cross that line on the level to access Belle Vue and out?

To compensate for this I would route the Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central to be the express train on that route, maybe even increasing the frequency to 2tph.

I would add an additional Manchester Piccadilly - Nottingham/Leicester train in the gap vacated by the Liverpool - Norwich, but obviously starting in the main station.
 

tbtc

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I just think that if 13/14 become airport only, and the only platforms that trains using the airport use then the whole line can be run like the Thameslink core meaning much higher capacity through Oxford Road and Deansgate

I think its a good idea, and will avoid some of the confusion at the moment (e.g. if you miss an Airport train on 13, do you then drag your suitcases over to the main platforms for the next train in seven minutes, or do you just wait on 13 for quater of an hour for the one after?).

It'd also make platform 13 a lot easier. At the moment you get different crowds on there, waiting for the Norwich/ Airport/ Scarborough (etc) service on a narrow platform. Your solution would mean 95% of people on 13 would just jump on the first service (since they all run to the Airport, none are overtaken), which would avoid congestion on the platform. The only exception being the passengers for Burnage (etc), which brings me on to...

The only real problem with this is the stopping train to the airport would eat up paths, so it may be a case of longer distance trains making one stop (each at the same time to stop catching the one in front up - so first one behind the stopper does Gatley, the one behind that East Didsbury, the one behind that Burnage and the one behind that Mauldeth Road) and then all stopping at Heald Green to keep the spacing. One for the planners anyway

Again, good idea. I'm in favour of doing this kind of thing on lines where you have a "long distance" service but with several "local" platforms. Another example would be the stations from Staleybridge to Huddersfield. Instead of one slow Pacer/150 (stopping at Greenfield etc, and eating up paths) you could run more TPE services on this route, but each stopping at one of the intermediate stations. Same with stations between Leeds and York (etc).

Of course there will be *some* demand from East Didsbury to Gatley (or from Garforth to East Garforth on the York line), but I think that our fixed resources need to be targetted at the largest demands (so everywhere gets a service to the "big" stations, but there's not necessarily a service linking each pair of "local" stations).

Thinking about the Liverpool - Norwich, is it possible it could be routed through Manchester Victoria and Ashburys given that TPE would no longer need the paths through East Manchester it might be possible to cross that line on the level to access Belle Vue and out?

Hmm... If the Scarborough/Leeds - Liverpool service is being diverted via Victoria then I can see the logic in the Norwich/Nottingham - Liverpool service doing that too. All "fast" Manchester - Liverpool trains serve the same Mancunian station. BUT, you'd then get different stations for the two "fast" Manchester - Sheffield services each hour. I'm not sure what the best way round this is. I don't know whether cutting the Liverpool - Norwich service at Manchester would help (replaced by extending the Hull - Manchester TPE service to Liverpool in its place) - the Liverpool - Norwich route is a bit of a sacred cow to some... no easy answer there.
 

Statto

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It's short sighted only electrifying the line through Chat Moss & not electrifying the line through Warrington Central as well.

IMO the whole of TPE North should be electrified, it's daft having wires only to Leeds, as most of TPE would still need to be DMUs.

My idea for TPE North if that were to happen would be 2tph to Liverpool via Warrington[EMT Norwich-Liverpool cut to Man Picc]with 1tph stopping at Widnes, & the other at Birchwood, all TPEs stop at Warrington Central & [stn]LPY[/stn].
 

cle

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I think its a good idea, and will avoid some of the confusion at the moment (e.g. if you miss an Airport train on 13, do you then drag your suitcases over to the main platforms for the next train in seven minutes, or do you just wait on 13 for quater of an hour for the one after?).

It'd also make platform 13 a lot easier. At the moment you get different crowds on there, waiting for the Norwich/ Airport/ Scarborough (etc) service on a narrow platform. Your solution would mean 95% of people on 13 would just jump on the first service (since they all run to the Airport, none are overtaken), which would avoid congestion on the platform. The only exception being the passengers for Burnage (etc), which brings me on to...



Again, good idea. I'm in favour of doing this kind of thing on lines where you have a "long distance" service but with several "local" platforms. Another example would be the stations from Staleybridge to Huddersfield. Instead of one slow Pacer/150 (stopping at Greenfield etc, and eating up paths) you could run more TPE services on this route, but each stopping at one of the intermediate stations. Same with stations between Leeds and York (etc).

Of course there will be *some* demand from East Didsbury to Gatley (or from Garforth to East Garforth on the York line), but I think that our fixed resources need to be targetted at the largest demands (so everywhere gets a service to the "big" stations, but there's not necessarily a service linking each pair of "local" stations).



Hmm... If the Scarborough/Leeds - Liverpool service is being diverted via Victoria then I can see the logic in the Norwich/Nottingham - Liverpool service doing that too. All "fast" Manchester - Liverpool trains serve the same Mancunian station. BUT, you'd then get different stations for the two "fast" Manchester - Sheffield services each hour. I'm not sure what the best way round this is. I don't know whether cutting the Liverpool - Norwich service at Manchester would help (replaced by extending the Hull - Manchester TPE service to Liverpool in its place) - the Liverpool - Norwich route is a bit of a sacred cow to some... no easy answer there.

I agree with many of your points, but not necessarily the one about dedicated stations for certain destinations.

Manchester is a big place, ever more important, and there will still be demand from Piccadilly to travel to Liverpool, as well as Victoria. Think of Brighton - and London Victoria/London Bridge, both serve a purpose.

So while TPE should run through Victoria, I don't see why there shouldn't be a few faster trains via Warrington Central too. They could start at the airport (as with today's fast via Newton le Willows), as well as the Norwich train. TPE from Scarborough would be gone from Liverpool I'm sure.

As for the famous Liverpool-Norwich service, I'm not sure what I'd do with it. It's a tricky one. I doubt many from Liverpool go beyond Nottingham. But removing the Liverpool - Sheffield link especially, would be a bad move.

And what about the TPE Cleethorpes - re: P13 only for Airport?

Your suggestion of adding Liverpool to the Hull is good, and surely hardly anyone does the full journey. I think TPEs to Liverpool are supposed to rise, and the Hull won't terminate at Piccadilly any more, but I would bet on it going to the Airport.

I'd solve Manchester to the East Mindlands by reinstating Rio - Manchester, Stockport, Derby, Leicester (Bedford/Luton) London, hourly.

And don't forget, the Derby-Stoke is returning to Crewe and Man Airport too - could that be extended (both route and unit!!!) to have more purpose?
 

northwichcat

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how about truncating Liverpool-Norwich to start at Manchester Picadilly?

It'd make more sense to truncate it at Nottingham if you do tuncate that service. You could then put Liverpool-Nottingham and Nottingham-Leeds in the new TPE franchise, order new stock for those two routes and then EMT and Northern get extra stock by losing the routes but keeping the stock.
 

northwichcat

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And the "Gatley Chord" I describe would give exactly that!

That wouldn't be an easy cheap solution due to the fact that when the motorway was built the lines through Northenden was freight only so they ripped up some of it to make it single track. After the closure of the line through Sale to heavy rail it had passenger services again.
 
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