• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

‘The Crooked House’ pub near Dudley burns down.

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
I would ban "developers" from buying up and destroying pubs.

Yet another case where "the market" needs to be crushed.

Below is a case where a pub was purchased and the new owners allegedly had no intention of running it as a going concern:


An MP has asked police to clarify if they were warned of the demolition of a landmark pub two days after a fire.
The charred shell of The Crooked House, once known as Britain's wonkiest pub, was bulldozed on Monday, prompting anger from local residents.
The BBC has attempted to contact the new owners ATE Farms.
Dudley MP Marco Longhi said a lack of information from authorities had "raised animosity" in the local community.
Staffordshire Police has been approached for comment.
The force is investigating the cause of the fire alongside the fire service, while South Staffordshire Council said it had not agreed to the total destruction of the site and was investigating whether the demolition was unlawful.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
I would ban "developers" from buying up and destroying pubs.

Yet another case where "the market" needs to be crushed.

I assume this is referring to "The Wonky Pub" that suspiciously caught fire after it was purchased by developers, and just before it might have become a listed building.

When the building was deliberately set on fire mysteriously caught fire on Saturday evening, the path to the pub was blocked by piles of dirt, preventing the fire brigade from getting close to the building.

Then the ruins of the building were demolished before the fire brigade, police and local council could investigate how the building was deliberately set on fire the possible cause of the blaze.

I would definitely ban the owners from redeveloping the site.

Any bets on how long it will be before that station hotel in Ayr suffers the same fate?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
I assume this is referring to "The Wonky Pub" that suspiciously caught fire after it was purchased by developers, and just before it might have become a listed building.

When the building was deliberately set on fire mysteriously caught fire on Saturday evening, the path to the pub was blocked by piles of dirt, preventing the fire brigade from getting close to the building.

Then the ruins of the building were demolished before the fire brigade, police and local council could investigate how the building was deliberately set on fire the possible cause of the blaze.

I would definitely ban the owners from redeveloping the site.

Any bets on how long it will be before that station hotel in Ayr suffers the same fate?

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

But it's not just that one. I've a relative who's grown up in London and seen it happen time and time again. I know of good pubs that are in development limbo.

Frankly, the whole "development" sector has such an abysmal record in this area, I'd be in favour of a blanket ban on any of them ever buying up pubs.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

But it's not just that one. I've a relative who's grown up in London and seen it happen time and time again. I know of good pubs that are in development limbo.

Frankly, the whole "development" sector has such an abysmal record in this area, I'd be in favour of a blanket ban on any of them ever buying up pubs.

Another increasing trend which needs to be banned is the tendency to either build something without planning permission, and then apply for permission "retrospectively", or receive planning permission for a building with certain specifications, and then build something much bigger, and either hope the council won't notice, or again that they will receive permission "retrospectively".
 

gg1

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2011
Messages
1,917
Location
Birmingham
I assume this is referring to "The Wonky Pub" that suspiciously caught fire after it was purchased by developers, and just before it might have become a listed building.

When the building was deliberately set on fire mysteriously caught fire on Saturday evening, the path to the pub was blocked by piles of dirt, preventing the fire brigade from getting close to the building.

Then the ruins of the building were demolished before the fire brigade, police and local council could investigate how the building was deliberately set on fire the possible cause of the blaze.

I would definitely ban the owners from redeveloping the site.

Any bets on how long it will be before that station hotel in Ayr suffers the same fate?
The more that comes out about this the dodgier it sounds.

The new owner just happens to own the landfill site next door to the Crooked House as mentioned in the linked articles below from the Daily Mail and The Guardian (IME if those two diametrically opposed publications are essentially reporting the same thing it's usually a good indication the story is accurate):
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ns-Britains-wonkiest-pub-fire-demolished.html
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...nswers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub
 
Last edited:

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
The more that comes out about this the dodgier it sounds.

The new owner just happens to own the landfill site next door to the Crooked House:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ns-Britains-wonkiest-pub-fire-demolished.html
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...nswers-about-destruction-of-crooked-house-pub

And the fact that the new owners of the pub were in dispute with Marstons over using the access road to the pub, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the pub catching fire and then being demolished.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
Another increasing trend which needs to be banned is the tendency to either build something without planning permission, and then apply for permission "retrospectively", or receive planning permission for a building with certain specifications, and then build something much bigger, and either hope the council won't notice, or again that they will receive permission "retrospectively".

Oh yes, that one happens quite a lot I believe !

Seems the old building wasn't the only crooked thing in this....

Probably the least crooked thing about the affair (allegedly)!
 
Last edited:

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,379
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Oh yes, that one happens quite a lot I believe !

I'm a big fan of stories describing where this tactic has completely failed. They don't come along very often. This one was in the Evening Standard ten years ago.

A Walthamstow house built without planning permission has been knocked down, following enforcement action by the local council.
The house was built next to 36 Onra Road, Walthamstow, without planning permission.

A retrospective application to Waltham Forest Council was later refused.

The property was fully built and looked as if it had stood on the site for some years, but the local authority had no choice but to knock it down after the owners missed the demolition deadline.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,206
Location
Birmingham
It happened on my parent's road. Some guy built a house extension without PP, neighbours who now found their garden sunlight blocked off by a high brick wall complained. The extension had to be completely demolished.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,500
Location
Up the creek
There was a case in Surrey a few years ago where a chap built a castle-style house and surrounded it with hay bales. Four years after it was completed he removed the bales and tried to claim that, as the four-year deadline for challenges had passed, it could stay. He lost eventually and had to demolish it under threat of prison, but it took another ten years to get that far.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
There is an ongoing case to demolish a house in Walsall, in the West Midlands.

And let's not forget the daughter of Captain Sir Tom Moore building a spa and pool without permission, and then applying for such permission retrospectively.


Demolition crews to move in on £200,000 'monster mansion' built without planning permission after neighbours win battle to have it torn down​

  • Gurwinder Singh tore down his own house to build a four-bed 'monster mansion'
  • Walsall Council has now said the homeowner must knock his new property down
A 'monster mansion' that was built without planning permission is set to be torn down after neighbours won a battle to get it demolished.

Gurwinder Singh knocked down his own semi-detached house in Willenhall to build a 'huge' four-bedroom property which made his neighbours' lives 'hell'.

Locals in the West Midlands town described is as being 'like a Travelodge in the middle of a housing estate' while others branded it a 'monstrosity' and 'an eyesore.'


Walsall Council last year served Mr Singh with an enforcement notice ordering him to tear the property down following complaints from nearby residents.

Now, the council has again said Mr Singh must tear his new property down after dismissing the homeowner's appeal to the Planning Inspectorate.

Neighbours say they hope the row can finally be resolved after three years of trying to get the house on the corner of Sandringham Avenue and Arundel Road demolished.

Mr Singh initially had planning permission for just a modest extension to the 1960s house in 2020 but went one step further and demolished the entire building.

It is thought the brand new house would have cost in the region of £200,000 to build - and would have been the biggest property in the area.

One neighbour, who wished to remain anonymous, said: 'We'll believe it when we see it as this has been going on for far too long.

'It sticks out like a sore thumb, I'm not sure how they thought they would ever get away with doing this.

'I saw it described as like having a Travelodge in the middle of a housing estate, and I think that sums it up. It's just so out of place and a real eyesore.

'We've all rallied together to object to this, so hopefully this is now the end of the saga and that monstrosity can be pulled down for good.'

Another previously said: 'I think it's right that he should tear it down.

'Why should you anyone get away with breaking the rules. The house is bloody huge and looks like a horrible monster mansion.
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,250
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
Seems the old building wasn't the only crooked thing in this....
The outpouring of 'grief' amongst local residents is a bit nauseating. Some are placing flowers onto the rubble. Others are also pinching bricks.

Maybe if those residents had frequented the pub when it was open it wouldn't be like it is now....
 
Last edited by a moderator:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
The outpouring of 'grief' amongst local residents is a bit nauseating. Some are placing flowers onto the rubble. Others are also pinching bricks.

Maybe if those residents had frequented the pub when it was open it wouldn't be like it is now....

You could say that the moral of this story is "use it or lose it".

That aside, I've known a couple of well used pubs that have been flogged off by unscrupulous breweries for a fast buck
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,206
Location
Birmingham
You can lament a local landmark and miss it even if you don't use any business associated. I don't see the problem.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
You can lament a local landmark and miss it even if you don't use any business associated. I don't see the problem.

Even the police are now saying that this is arson, and the timing is too much of a coincidence, especially given the fact that the building was demolished less than 48 hours after the fire.

I can't help but come to the conclusion that the owners of the building were responsible for the fire, and its subsequent demolition before the police and fire brigade could gather any evidence as to the cause of the fire.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,206
Location
Birmingham
Yeah happens a lot, but the developers got too cocky this time and might be caught out. The mayor has made a big deal about it but we'll see if anything happens once it slips away from the headlines.
 

52290

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2015
Messages
553
You could say that the moral of this story is "use it or lose it".

That aside, I've known a couple of well used pubs that have been flogged off by unscrupulous breweries for a fast buck
Indeed, if Marston's hadn't sold the Crooked House then all this might not have happened.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
Indeed, if Marston's hadn't sold the Crooked House then all this might not have happened.

Indeed. One think I've not seen mentioned was how well the pub was used at the time of sale. It's not automatically the case that it was a declining pub.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,500
Location
Up the creek
Banks’s appears to be a trading name of Marston’s, although it does appear that Banks’s Ales, along with Mansfield beers, are brewed in Wolverhampton, rather than Burton. Even so, I would presume that property would be dealt with at Marston’s head office, which appears, surprisingly, to be in Wolverhampton.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,817
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
Something similar happened a few years ago to the listed Carlton Tavern in Maida Vale, West London. It was illegally demolished overnight by its new owners - a dodgy property company registered in Israel - who wished to build flats on the site, with or without planning permission. After a huge campaign by Westminster Council, CAMRA and local community activists, the council ordered the owners to rebuild the pub brick-by-brick exactly as it was....both internal and externally. IIRC, when they refused to do this, the matter progressed to High Court, which ordered the rebuilding at the owners expense and hit them with a massive fine on top. Others on here may know the finer details of the case, but I believe that the Carlton has finally been restored to its former glory and is being enjoyed by the locals and visitors once again. It's not totally beyond the bounds of possibility that the same could happen with the Crooked House. Let's hope so!
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
Something similar happened a few years ago to the listed Carlton Tavern in Maida Vale, West London. It was illegally demolished overnight by its new owners - a dodgy property company registered in Israel - who wished to build flats on the site, with or without planning permission. After a huge campaign by Westminster Council, CAMRA and local community activists, the council ordered the owners to rebuild the pub brick-by-brick exactly as it was....both internal and externally. IIRC, when they refused to do this, the matter progressed to High Court, which ordered the rebuilding at the owners expense and hit them with a massive fine on top. Others on here may know the finer details of the case, but I believe that the Carlton has finally been restored to its former glory and is being enjoyed by the locals and visitors once again. It's not totally beyond the bounds of possibility that the same could happen with the Crooked House. Let's hope so!

It's very important that examples are made of such cases.
 

gg1

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2011
Messages
1,917
Location
Birmingham
It's very important that examples are made of such cases.
The big difference is the London example was a listed building, unfortunately I can't see an equivalent punishment being imposed in this case.

One common reaction I've seen on local groups/forums is surprise that the Crooked House wasn't already listed, given it's age and the fact it was a genuinely unique building I and many others had assumed it had been for years.
 

Strat-tastic

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2010
Messages
1,370
Location
Outrageous Grace
Something similar happened a few years ago to the listed Carlton Tavern in Maida Vale, West London. It was illegally demolished overnight by its new owners - a dodgy property company registered in Israel - who wished to build flats on the site, with or without planning permission. After a huge campaign by Westminster Council, CAMRA and local community activists, the council ordered the owners to rebuild the pub brick-by-brick exactly as it was....both internal and externally. IIRC, when they refused to do this, the matter progressed to High Court, which ordered the rebuilding at the owners expense and hit them with a massive fine on top. Others on here may know the finer details of the case, but I believe that the Carlton has finally been restored to its former glory and is being enjoyed by the locals and visitors once again. It's not totally beyond the bounds of possibility that the same could happen with the Crooked House. Let's hope so!
Including getting the crookedness just right!

I've been there before; crazy place :lol:
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,130
Location
Yorks
The big difference is the London example was a listed building, unfortunately I can't see an equivalent punishment being imposed in this case.

One common reaction I've seen on local groups/forums is surprise that the Crooked House wasn't already listed, given it's age and the fact it was a genuinely unique building I and many others had assumed it had been for years.

Indeed. I suspect popular quirkiness doesn't meet the listing criteria unfortunately.

I agree.

If you let the owners get away with this, then similar cases will occur elsewhere in the future.

Indeed.
 

duncanp

Established Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
4,856
Indeed. I suspect popular quirkiness doesn't meet the listing criteria unfortunately.



Indeed.

Well it was a listing building, but not in the sense that you mean.

.....oh, and here is an absolutely amazing coincidence.

The owners of the Crooked House hired the digger that was used to demolish it one week before the fire.

Now isn't that lucky for them that they had the necessary equipment close to hand.


Owners of Britain’s wonkiest pub hired digger used to demolish it days before fire​

AT Contracting rented vehicle from plant hire firm before major blaze, being treated by police as arson, hit historic building

The new owners of the Crooked House pub hired a digger several days before the building burnt down, with the vehicle used to demolish the building.

AT Contracting – owned by Carly Taylor, who bought the historic pub in Himley, near Dudley in the West Midlands, in July – rented the digger from a plant hire firm a week before the fire, which is being treated by police as arson.

It also emerged that the fire brigade’s attempts to put out the blaze were hampered by a large mound of earth that was blocking access to the site when they arrived on Saturday night.

Former regulars and the local MP are demanding that the building, known as the country’s wonkiest pub after it was affected by mining subsidence in the 19th century, is rebuilt brick by brick after the council said it was demolished without permission.

Dogs trained to detect accelerants have been to the site to help the police and fire brigade investigate the cause of the fire, which happened just a week after an application was made to give the Crooked House listed building status.

On Monday, a large digger owned by Lyndon Thomas plant hire, based in Northamptonshire, was filmed flattening the burnt-out building, despite instructions from the local authority to pull down only a small part of the structure, which was thought to be salvageable.

The firm hired out the digger to AT Contracting, but Mr Thomas has criticised reports linking his company’s name to the controversy.

He told The Telegraph: “We are a family-run firm and we hired out the equipment to an existing customer who had all the necessary insurances and paperwork. We hired it out without a driver, and we had no idea what it was going to be used for.

“I can’t be held responsible for what he [the customer] does, but you wouldn’t believe the threatening phone calls we have received since this happened.”

Mrs Taylor, a 34-year-old former hair stylist, bought the 250-year-old building from Marston’s brewery in July. It had been listed for sale for £675,000.

The pub is accessed via a road owned by Himley Environmental, of which Mrs Taylor’s husband Adam, 44, was a director until November 2021 and which operates as a landfill site a short distance from the Crooked House.

The couple are current or former directors of 18 companies, which include property development and waste management firms. They had previously bought another pub in the area with the aim of turning it into flats.

Locals have said they heard a “party with loud music” at the pub on Saturday night, hours before the fire was reported. The fire brigade was called but could only get a third of the way up the mile-long road leading to the building because of a mound of earth blocking the road.

A watch commander at Tipton fire station said his firefighters had to use 40 lengths of hose to get to the fire because of the obstruction.

Eyewitnesses said security guards with dogs turned up at the site on Monday before the digger moved in and demolished the Crooked House.

Roger Lees, the leader of South Staffordshire Council, said that a representative of the landowners had agreed on Monday that only part of the upper structure of the front of the building would be removed to stabilise the rest of it, He said that at no point did the council authorise full demolition and “nor was this deemed necessary”.

He said the demolition was contrary to the Town and Country Planning Order 2015, and that the council’s lawyers were examining the evidence “with a view to taking enforcement action”.

Paul Taylor, from the Save the Crooked House campaign group, said: “I think the loss will be felt forever. Even if there’s a way to restore the building in some form, it will never ever be the original Crooked House. It will be a rebuild.

“People are very very upset. It was just one of those iconic things, it felt like it belonged to us, to the community, to the Black Country.”

Mr and Mrs Taylor have not so far commented.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,206
Location
Birmingham
I remember when i was at uni, one of my friends said he was going to go to the Crooked House and drop acid. To be honest i can't remember if i ever saw him again!
 

Top