0-6-0 Top Speed

[ScotTrainLad]

What would be the top speed of a simple 0-6-0 steam locomotive and comfortable operating speed be?

 

[70014IronDuke]

What would be the top speed of a simple 0-6-0 steam locomotive and comfortable operating speed be?

Hmmm. Nobody's rushed to answer you, have they? So, I'll have a go.

First of all, what do you mean by "a simple" 0-6-0 steam loco?

The one you show in the photo appears to be a private industrial tank engine. I don't know if it worked at a pithead, with immediate access via a yard to a main line, or if it had a lengthy system of its own to work. If the former, it would not have done more than 20 mph in daily service, and perhaps 30 mph if the latter. Could it go faster? Probably, but it imight be very rough, as it would probably not be well balanced or well sprung - and these factors would also be affected by the track quality.

The GWR and later BR(W) used 57XX class on branch line motor trains. I dare say these could work up to about 50 mph in the right places, on good track. (@Taunton will be along soon to sort me out if I'm wrong.)

I could imagine some of the Gresley 0-6-0 tender locos, like the J39, could also work up to 50 mph or so on lighter freight workings. I think some of those types had 5'-3" driving wheels, so they would have been designed for main line running with fitted goods trains - BICBW.

Point is, most 0-6-0 tank locomotives spent their lives shunting about or on light trip working, where they would not be expected to exceed 30 mph or so at the most.

 

[ScotTrainLad]

Hmmm. Nobody's rushed to answer you, have they? So, I'll have a go.

First of all, what do you mean by "a simple" 0-6-0 steam loco?

The one you show in the photo appears to be a private industrial tank engine. I don't know if it worked at a pithead, with immediate access via a yard to a main line, or if it had a lengthy system of its own to work. If the former, it would not have done more than 20 mph in daily service, and perhaps 30 mph if the latter. Could it go faster? Probably, but it imight be very rough, as it would probably not be well balanced or well sprung - and these factors would also be affected by the track quality.

The GWR and later BR(W) used 57XX class on branch line motor trains. I dare say these could work up to about 50 mph in the right places, on good track. (@Taunton will be along soon to sort me out if I'm wrong.)

I could imagine some of the Gresley 0-6-0 tender locos, like the J39, could also work up to 50 mph or so on lighter freight workings. I think some of those types had 5'-3" driving wheels, so they would have been designed for main line running with fitted goods trains - BICBW.

Point is, most 0-6-0 tank locomotives spent their lives shunting about or on light trip working, where they would not be expected to exceed 30 mph or so at the most.

Thanks, the train used to work at a Brick works in Glenboig, connected to a mainline used by Caledonian railways with a couple sidings to transport coal and clay.

 

[DerekC]

I think this is the same loco as appears in a photo here:

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...IAL-LOCOMOTIVES/NATIONAL-COAL-BOARD/i-fmTkcmJ

According to the caption:

BEDLAY COLLIERY, Lanarkshire - No.9 - 0-6-0T - built 1909 by Hudswell Clarke & Co., Works No.895 - preserved at Summerlee Museum of Scottish Industrial Life.

And here's a link to its entry on the "Preserved British Steam Locomotives" website:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/hudswell-clarke-works-no-895-no-9-0-6-0t/

This locomotive was built in 1909 by Hudswell Clarke for William Baird & Co Ltd to work at the Bedlay Colliery in East Dunbartonshire. The mine supplied coking coal to the company’s iron-smelting works at Gartsherrie at Coatbridge. As the mining of coking coal was rare in Scotland the mine survived until 1981.

The Bedlay Colliery was subsequently opened by the National Coal Board on nationalisation of the industry. The locomotive ended its working days owned by the the NCB Fife area.

It is now part of an open air display at Summerlee Museum of Scottish Industrial Life (formerly known as the Sumerlee Heritage Park) in Coatbridge.

None of this answers your question about top speed, but I think @70014IronDuke is about right. Your loco might have got up to 40 - 45 mph on level track with little load on, but you would have had to hang on tight!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks, the train used to work at a Brick works in Glenboig, connected to a mainline used by Caledonian railways with a couple sidings to transport coal and clay.

In that case, in day-to-day running it probably wouldn't exceed 15 mph!

These kind of engines were designed to be rugged and cheap. Even if the system had a 'main line' of a few miles to BR exchange sidings, apart from the track (which was also, usually, kept to minimal standards), you also had to stop the train! These would normally not be braked, except by the locomotive, and a train going at even 25 mph is not so easy to stop with only the locomotive steam brake.

I've looked up the J39s - they had 5'-2" drivers, so, along with mineral trains (unbraked, except for the brake van itself), they would surely have been used on long-distance, faster freights. They also worked in Scotland, but over former NBR lines. I could believe that, on good track, eg the Aberdeen main line, or from Waverley to Newcastle, these might creep up to 55 mph on a fitted freight or parcels train, maybe close to 60 mph, but very unlikely to do above that.

The former Caledonian lines never received a 'modern' 0-6-0 like the J39 as far as I'm aware, they made do with pre-grouping engines (a lot of them rated just 2F) and LMS 4Fs I think. I suppose towards the end, in the 1950s and early 60s, but before diesels, some of the Standard 76xxx and 77xxx 2-6-0s displaced them.

 

[Taunton]

The GWR and later BR(W) used 57XX class on branch line motor trains. I dare say these could work up to about 50 mph in the right places, on good track. (@Taunton will be along soon to sort me out if I'm wrong.)

Keep going . The 57xx was an absolute "anything, anytime, any load" loco, and getting stopping trains up to 50-60 between stations was nothing. Detailed balancing of the engine to minimise "boxing", that is the loco swaying left and right with the alternating piston thrusts, and no leading bogie to restrain it, was key to this. Mr Collett had chosen a 1930s design team at Swindon who understood this better than most.

Even more puny ... well known train timing author O S Nock, who lived in Bath, wrote he was timing from the carriage window a Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham express, hauled by a Jubilee, which has worked up to maybe 60mph on the level passing Stonehouse, when on the closely parallel (for some miles there) Swindon line there, a 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco on a Chalford auto train, running bunker-first and PROPELLING an Auto Coach, progressively appeared at his window, and steadily overtook them! Nock thought it was doing 65mph or more. Apparently this was a regular "challenge" for the Gloucester crews whenever they got alongside an LMR express.

 

[Bevan Price]

The maximum I had with a Fowler LMS 0-6-0 on a passenger service was about 55 mph. They were probably capable of a bit more, but the riding would have got very rough. I had a few Bulleid Q1 0-6-0s, but will have to look back at records to see what they did.

0-6-0s used to do a lot of light passenger duties, and seasonal extras, but were not expected to run at high speeds.
For example, I have seen photos of L&YR Aspinall 3F 0-6-0s hauling quite long excursions to Blackpool.

 

[ScotTrainLad]

I think this is the same loco as appears in a photo here:

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...IAL-LOCOMOTIVES/NATIONAL-COAL-BOARD/i-fmTkcmJ

According to the caption:



And here's a link to its entry on the "Preserved British Steam Locomotives" website:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/hudswell-clarke-works-no-895-no-9-0-6-0t/


None of this answers your question about top speed, but I think @70014IronDuke is about right. Your loco might have got up to 40 - 45 mph on level track with little load on, but you would have had to hang on tight!

That's the exact one, I've been to the same museum as well. My village has quite a lot of history.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
Even more puny ... well known train timing author O S Nock, who lived in Bath, wrote he was timing from the carriage window a Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham express, hauled by a Jubilee, which has worked up to maybe 60mph on the level passing Stonehouse, when on the closely parallel (for some miles there) Swindon line there, a 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco on a Chalford auto train, running bunker-first and PROPELLING an Auto Coach, progressively appeared at his window, and steadily overtook them! Nock thought it was doing 65mph or more. Apparently this was a regular "challenge" for the Gloucester crews whenever they got alongside an LMR express.

Well, I did write 'about' 50 mph for a 57XX Mr T

I read somewhere that a 48xx/58xx had hit 69 mph (I think it was) - perhaps that was the Nock incident.

I remember leaving Reading one Sunday lunchtime around Easter 62 with a 41xx Banbury 2-6-2T (12.25 off Reading, IIRC) on the down relief. On the down main, a Warship (I have an idea it was D812, Royal Naval Reserve, but wouldn't want to bet on that) had started 10 seconds or so ahead of us, and it was immediately clear our driver was up to the challenge - we soon overtook the Warship, at least for a hundred yards or two. We had to stop at Tilehurst, of course, and so the Class 1 train duly forged ahead as we eased for the stop. Fun while it lasted!

But we are now drifting off topic and may be receiving a rapping of knuckles if not careful

 

[chorleyjeff]

The maximum I had with a Fowler LMS 0-6-0 on a passenger service was about 55 mph. They were probably capable of a bit more, but the riding would have got very rough. I had a few Bulleid Q1 0-6-0s, but will have to look back at records to see what they did.

0-6-0s used to do a lot of light passenger duties, and seasonal extras, but were not expected to run at high speeds.
For example, I have seen photos of L&YR Aspinall 3F 0-6-0s hauling quite long excursions to Blackpool.

And at Preston on Scotland to Liverpool trains.
There are accident reports involing L&Y 0-6-0s on Bradford to Blackpool excursions.
Seems they could do 60mph on decent track.

 

[Taunton]

Separately, the S&D had a considerable stud of LMS 4F 0-6-0s for various purposes. Come summer Saturdays and they would be turned out as assisting locos on Bath to Templecombe, and occasionally right through to Bournemouth. On the downhill stretches, possibly with Donald Beale right behind them getting a West Country up to speed, I bet those were over 60mph as well. If Bath was really short of locos, it was not unknown for double-headed 4Fs to work right through to Bournemouth.

I sometimes have recollected this when driving down to Weymouth at the point on the A35 main road at Corfe Mullen, if you know just where to look, where the S&D used to go over on a level crossing.

 

[D Williams]

Keep going . The 57xx was an absolute "anything, anytime, any load" loco, and getting stopping trains up to 50-60 between stations was nothing. Detailed balancing of the engine to minimise "boxing", that is the loco swaying left and right with the alternating piston thrusts, and no leading bogie to restrain it, was key to this. Mr Collett had chosen a 1930s design team at Swindon who understood this better than most.

Even more puny ... well known train timing author O S Nock, who lived in Bath, wrote he was timing from the carriage window a Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham express, hauled by a Jubilee, which has worked up to maybe 60mph on the level passing Stonehouse, when on the closely parallel (for some miles there) Swindon line there, a 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco on a Chalford auto train, running bunker-first and PROPELLING an Auto Coach, progressively appeared at his window, and steadily overtook them! Nock thought it was doing 65mph or more. Apparently this was a regular "challenge" for the Gloucester crews whenever they got alongside an LMR express.

One of my old friends, sadly now departed , was an LMS then LM region fireman and used to talk about this. It was a regular event from Stonehouse and some of the exchanges between the footplate crews were lively. The 14xx was aided by running down the bank from Stonehouse station.

Also the 94xx tanks at Truro regularly exceeded 50 mph on the Falmouth branch particularly when the driver wanted to book off early!

 

[Irascible]

The GWR and later BR(W) used 57XX class on branch line motor trains.

There were classes ( 54XX I think had the biggest drivers? only slightly smaller than the 48XX autotanks ) built for passenger work. I don't have any idea about speed records though ( you'd think somewhere around 48XX given how similar they are ).

Speed limits are mostly a function of the boiler's ability to provide enough steam and piston speeds keeping low enough that the steam has time to expand ( and there being enough lubrication! ), so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bigger goods locomotives were got up to quite some speeds at some point. Any records of Bulleid Q1s on passenger work?

 

[Snapper37]

I would assume the GWR 2251’s would be in the 60mph club. Lots of pictures of them tucked inside express engines while assisting,

 

[75A]

My beloved S.R Q1's were allowed to run @ 75mph, both forwards & Tender first., although according to the crews this was really scary.

 

[Irascible]

I would assume the GWR 2251’s would be in the 60mph club. Lots of pictures of them tucked inside express engines while assisting,

Same boiler as a 9400 & 5' 2" drivers, so yes, presumably.

My beloved S.R Q1's were allowed to run @ 75mph, both forwards & Tender first., although according to the crews this was really scary.

I'd imagine they might want to tether themselves!

 

[AM9]

Keep going . The 57xx was an absolute "anything, anytime, any load" loco, and getting stopping trains up to 50-60 between stations was nothing. Detailed balancing of the engine to minimise "boxing", that is the loco swaying left and right with the alternating piston thrusts, and no leading bogie to restrain it, was key to this. Mr Collett had chosen a 1930s design team at Swindon who understood this better than most.

Even more puny ... well known train timing author O S Nock, who lived in Bath, wrote he was timing from the carriage window a Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham express, hauled by a Jubilee, which has worked up to maybe 60mph on the level passing Stonehouse, when on the closely parallel (for some miles there) Swindon line there, a 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco on a Chalford auto train, running bunker-first and PROPELLING an Auto Coach, progressively appeared at his window, and steadily overtook them! Nock thought it was doing 65mph or more. Apparently this was a regular "challenge" for the Gloucester crews whenever they got alongside an LMR express.

This sums up the two main limiting 'features' of an 0-6-0 engine:

a) the hammer blow and unbalanced component of a two cylinder motion on a rigid chassis would create significant sway and even twisting even on stright track​

b) evidence that a meagre 0-4-2 tank could outpace some larger 0-6-0 locos in reverse only indicates that the presence of an undriven axle contributes considerably to stability at speeds, hence the reason for leading and trailing axles and bogies on anything designed to go much faster than 60mph.*​

* Pacers were the special case owing to the chasis design, and of course they didn't have a low revolution traction system like steam.

 

[etr221]

The GNR had some 0-6-0s with 5feet 8inch wheels (J1 & J2), built for fast freight, but used as mixed traffic locos - worked local passenger and excursion trains extensively, and were not unknown as standins for Pacifics on expresses. Whether there are logs showing what speeds they got up to I've no idea.

 

[Sun Chariot]

My beloved S.R Q1's were allowed to run @ 75mph, both forwards & Tender first., although according to the crews this was really scary.

You beat me to it they were designed to operate comfortably at 75mph in forward and reverse gears. Impressive.

I have always had a soft spot for Bulleid's Q1; Ivatt's "mucky duck" 2-6-0 4MT, also. I've accumulated half a dozen 4mm models of the two classes.

 

[Dr_Paul]

My beloved S.R Q1's were allowed to run @ 75mph, both forwards & Tender first., although according to the crews this was really scary.

You beat me to it they were designed to operate comfortably at 75mph in forward and reverse gears. Impressive.

I read somewhere that a Charlie was run at 75mph tender-first, but whether they were actually designed to do this or officially permitted to do this is another question!

 

[Wyrleybart]

This sums up the two main limiting 'features' of an 0-6-0 engine:

a) the hammer blow and unbalanced component of a two cylinder motion on a rigid chassis would create significant sway and even twisting even on stright track​

b) evidence that a meagre 0-4-2 tank could outpace some larger 0-6-0 locos in reverse only indicates that the presence of an undriven axle contributes considerably to stability at speeds, hence the reason for leading and trailing axles and bogies on anything designed to go much faster than 60mph.*​

* Pacers were the special case owing to the chasis design, and of course they didn't have a low revolution traction system like steam.

Not well versed in steam but I believe the Midland 0-6-0s were designed with short travel valves, as well as small axleboxes. So even though the likes of the S&D would require some speed from the locos it would probably more more useful as "lugging power" up to between 50 ands 60mph.

Important to consider though that speed was not a religiously monitored factor until British Railways started equipping it's standards and D&E fleets with speedos From what I understand loco drivers drove by "feel" rather than by glancing at the speedo.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not well versed in steam but I believe the Midland 0-6-0s were designed with short travel valves, as well as small axleboxes. So even though the likes of the S&D would require some speed from the locos it would probably more more useful as "lugging power" up to between 50 ands 60mph.

Important to consider though that speed was not a religiously monitored factor until British Railways started equipping it's standards and D&E fleets with speedos From what I understand loco drivers drove by "feel" rather than by glancing at the speedo.

Yes - I understand that even most Gresley Pacifics did not have speedos when they were built, and only about half the LMSR Black 5 4-6-0s had received speedos before they were withdrawn.

 

[Taunton]

I would assume the GWR 2251’s would be in the 60mph club. Lots of pictures of them tucked inside express engines while assisting,

The GWR was more insistent than most about the pilot engine being inside the main loco, despite the shunting around required, rather than on the front, as they wanted the front driver to be responsible for the brake, and this was better done by the established main line man than the Passed Fireman plus Passed Cleaner who had been grabbed from shed duties to act as a pilot.

A misunderstanding, I regret to say at Taunton itself, led to a King on an overloaded and overlong Up London express, which had just made it over Whiteball, easing forward because a Hall was behind, running light engine via Westbury to Swindon works, and was to be put inside. Unfortunately "the light engine" in the instructions to signalmen was mis-interpreted as Taunton's old 0-4-0T 1338, which was crossed to the Up Main to run forward, delaying the Hall, until it waddled into Taunton station with all expectant eyes looking westward for it. Apparently the King driver's comments were the best ...

 

[Rescars]

Small was sometimes speedy. Stroudley's Terriers, built for rapid acceleration between stations on the South London Line, were apparently good for 60 mph. No 40 Brighton was even fitted with a speed indicator, which no doubt impressed the judges at the Paris Exhibition.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I read somewhere that a Charlie was run at 75mph tender-first, but whether they were actually designed to do this or officially permitted to do this is another question!

This is mentioned in 'The Leader Locomotive' by Kevin Robertson in connection with thoughts of a new type of locomotive that eventually appeared as the 'Leader' class.

There are three mentions:

"It was number C21 of the class that was involved with speed trials running in reverse at 75mph."

"As first built, Bulleid's Q1 0-6-0 design was found to run well up to 75mph but was considered 'lively' in reverse."

Bulleid himself "boarded number C21 for a test run, tender first to Maidstone and return. Speeds of 55-66mph were reached without mishap and consequently the pre-existing fears began to fade away."

 

[The Crab]

Thanks, the train used to work at a Brick works in Glenboig, connected to a mainline used by Caledonian railways with a couple sidings to transport coal and clay.

And the engine?

 

[bishdunster]

Surely you mean the A31 At Corfe Mullen, just down the road from the Coventry Arms pub .

I sometimes have recollected this when driving down to Weymouth at the point on the A35 main road at Corfe Mullen, if you know just where to look, where the S&D used to go over on a level crossing.