0900 Glasgow-Penzance XC service

[Martin_1981]

Further to my previous thread last September regarding the apparent amount of 'slack' in some of XC's timetabled services, I have to mention the time recovery of the 0900 Glasgow-Penzance service today on the National Rail website, when I looked earlier this evening.

The service left Birmingham New Street 37 minutes late, due to line closure at Peartree near Derby which meant the service must have been diverted via Leicester as it didn't make its booked stop at Tamworth according to NR information. 80 minutes from Derby to Birmingham via Leicester is about right.

The train lost further time between New St and Cheltenham Spa, where it departed 44 minutes late. However, by Exeter it had made up 14 minutes. At Plymouth, the train is scheduled to arrive at 18:50 and depart at 19:00. It departed just 11 minutes late at 19:11 and arrived in Penzance bang on time at 20:52, having departed St Erth just 2 minutes late.

I knew there was some slack in XC's timetable, but didn't realise there was that much! Is a lot of it to do with meeting punctuality targets? Or is it because of the larger volume of trains now running, thus making pathing more difficult? I'm curious.......

 

[dvboy]

Most XCs that go through Birmingham New Street sit there for a long time, and this is often announced on the train so passengers have enough time to go up to the concourse to the retail outlets and back if they wish.

 

[calc7]

On the long distance ones it's not too frustrating - yes it probably adds 45 mins end-to-end but Glasgow to Penzance via the East Coast is never going to be the quickest route.

It's worse on the shorter ones, eg Reading to Newcastle - the northbound service taking half an hour longer than the southbound on the middle section!

And on Manchester to Bristol, which could be done in 2 1/2 hours if there weren't so much slack built it.

So yeah, probably to assist punctuality - though unpunctual trains isn't necessarily XC's fault (overcrowding, running on so many different lines, running through so many bottlenecks...)

 

[bengolding]

Do all XC drivers sign the diversionary route via Loughborough and Nuneaton? Given a good path, this can be done in around 70 minutes.

 

[Laryk]

The 0940 XC Penzance - Manchester Piccadilly is timetabled to wait 11 minutes in Plymouth. More often than not it arrives 5 or so minutes early. This seems far too long.

 

[Tiny Tim]

It's easy to be cynical and assume that timetable slack is to allow the TOCs to avoid being 'late' too often, but it's equally valid to say (as I'm sure they do) that it gives trains a better chance of getting passengers to their destination as scheduled. In any case, in my experience even over quite long distances once a train is late it stays that way. As our railways become busier some services will inevitably run slower to accommodate more prestigious fast trains. This isn't anything new, when the LMS and LNER were racing to Scotland in the 1930s just about every train on the routes were shoved into loops or sidings to make way for the record breakers. There are (and always have been) timetabled trains that make no attempt to make reasonable progress, and this will always be with us.

 

[TEW]

The 0940 XC Penzance - Manchester Piccadilly is timetabled to wait 11 minutes in Plymouth. More often than not it arrives 5 or so minutes early. This seems far too long.

That's the only way it fits in the timetable. Has to be 1400 off Bristol, so ideally 1155 off Plymouth and 0955 off Penzance. That would be to close to the 1000 from Penzance though, there must be a 20 minute gap between trains between Camborne and Truro due to the signalling.

 

[Minilad]

Do all XC drivers sign the diversionary route via Loughborough and Nuneaton? Given a good path, this can be done in around 70 minutes.

Most do but not all, same applies to the guards too

 

[142094]

It's easy to be cynical and assume that timetable slack is to allow the TOCs to avoid being 'late' too often, but it's equally valid to say (as I'm sure they do) that it gives trains a better chance of getting passengers to their destination as scheduled. In any case, in my experience even over quite long distances once a train is late it stays that way. As our railways become busier some services will inevitably run slower to accommodate more prestigious fast trains. This isn't anything new, when the LMS and LNER were racing to Scotland in the 1930s just about every train on the routes were shoved into loops or sidings to make way for the record breakers. There are (and always have been) timetabled trains that make no attempt to make reasonable progress, and this will always be with us.

The only problem with this logic is that very few people travel end to end on long services. So you might only delay someone by a few minutes travelling between Glasgow and Penzance but you'll be delaying a lot more people for half an hour or so on shorter journeys.

 

[Laryk]

That's the only way it fits in the timetable. Has to be 1400 off Bristol, so ideally 1155 off Plymouth and 0955 off Penzance. That would be to close to the 1000 from Penzance though, there must be a 20 minute gap between trains between Camborne and Truro due to the signalling.

*Rants at poor signalling* ;D

Fair enough is there is no other way to do it. Waiting for 10-15 mins at a station is very frustrating, though.

 

[brompton rail]

I thought Network Rail did the schedules. Reading to Newcastle services take longer than southbound services because they follow the xx.41 Northern Sheffield - Hull etc from Sheffield (which in turn follows the Adwick stopper). If XC was retired to leave Sheffield about xx.43 it would arrive in Doncaster around xx. 05, thus clashing with EC's two hourly .00 departure for York only and xx.09 departure for Newcastle /Edinburgh. Since the East Coast timetable has just been re-cast I doubt changes are likely. And that is not to mention the availability of platforms at Doncaster (n/bound services use Plats 4 & 8).

Anyway I dont have a problem with leaving New Street 15 down and arriving Doncaster on time!

 

[MCR247]

But surely padding is a good thing to a point if it removes the "trains are always late" view held by many members the public

 

[TEW]

*Rants at poor signalling* ;D

Fair enough is there is no other way to do it. Waiting for 10-15 mins at a station is very frustrating, though.

Well, yes, they could have kept the timetable the same where it made more sense. The 1125 Plymouth-Manchester as it was at the time the timetable changed started back at Penzance at 0930 with what was then the 1150 Plymouth-Newcastle running. The set currently used to from the 1125 Plymouth-Dundee could instead form the 1150 Plymouth-Manchester, both being booked 220s. A train at 0930 from Penzance works better because the 0941 is only 20 minutes in front of the 1000, as even a slight delay to the service will hold up the 1000 Penzance-London. There is one Absolute Block section from Camborne to Truro, a twenty minute section and it is a big source of small, annoying delays, particularity in the mornings.

 

[Laryk]

There is one Absolute Block section from Camborne to Truro, a twenty minute section and it is a big source of small, annoying delays, particularity in the mornings.

That explains why the XC service arriving Penzance at 21:42 nearly always waits between Truro and Redruth for about 5 minutes - it's only 12 minutes behind an HST from Paddington at Truro.
I only remember this because the cant on the right hand bend where it stops makes the internal doors open and shut continuously.

 

[The Planner]

The train lost further time between New St and Cheltenham Spa, where it departed 44 minutes late. However, by Exeter it had made up 14 minutes. At Plymouth, the train is scheduled to arrive at 18:50 and depart at 19:00. It departed just 11 minutes late at 19:11 and arrived in Penzance bang on time at 20:52, having departed St Erth just 2 minutes late.

5 of that would have been made up by Standish Jn as it is meant to follow a Cheltenham - Swindon local. Then another 3 by Temple Meads as it's normal path follows a Malvern - Weymouth from Parkway. It probabaly didn't use all 4 of the dwell time at Temple Meads. There is another 2 minutes to be had from Temple Meads to Exeter and if it had quick dwells at Taunton and Tiverton I can quite believe it made the time up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is one Absolute Block section from Camborne to Truro, a twenty minute section and it is a big source of small, annoying delays, particularity in the mornings.

Only in the up though, that section is split in three in the down, Camborne to Penwithers, Penwithers to Baldhu and Baldhu to Truro.

 

[Laryk]

A few years ago I caught a XC train from Leeds to PZ (direct) I *think* it was diverted via Doncaster from Leeds and lost about 30 mins by the time it reached Sheffield. Arrived in Penzance bang on time

 

[Minilad]

5 of that would have been made up by Standish Jn as it is meant to follow a Cheltenham - Swindon local. Then another 3 by Temple Meads as it's normal path follows a Malvern - Weymouth from Parkway. It probabaly didn't use all 4 of the dwell time at Temple Meads. There is another 2 minutes to be had from Temple Meads to Exeter and if it had quick dwells at Taunton and Tiverton I can quite believe it made the time up.

Maybe its about time people understood the difference between pathing minutes, performance minutes and recovery minutes. Instead of lumping it all under padding

 

[The Planner]

I'll agree that performance allowance is shaky ground and there isn't a lot of it about, but it does make me chuckle that it is assumed that minutes are thrown in for the sake of it.

 

[455driver]

Maybe its about time people understood the difference between pathing minutes, performance minutes and recovery minutes. Instead of lumping it all under padding

But if they did that they wouldnt be able to moan as miuch would they!

 

[IanXC]

Only in the up though, that section is split in three in the down, Camborne to Penwithers, Penwithers to Baldhu and Baldhu to Truro.

How does this come about then? Presumably there are boxes to control the 3 sections on the down, do these boxes not control the up line which passes them?

How hard would it be to bring the up line signalling up to the standard of the down?

 

[The Planner]

Presumably they are IBs in the down direction whereas the up doesn't have them. Depends if there is the traffic to justify it really, not sure why the down is different.

 

[TEW]

Baldhu and Penwithers Junction are actually the other way round, the line is track circuited as far as Baldhu in the down direction with an intermediate block signal there. Penwithers Junction is the the junction for the Falmouth line, which also comes off the down line.

 

[Requeststop]

How hard would it be to bring the up line signalling up to the standard of the down?

My thoughts exactly. Must not too much money to do this either.

Recall the nightmare of BR days when on an early midsummer morning taking an Inter-City - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Penzance when they used to couple the 2 sections of the train at Carstairs and the West Coast line was used.

Just south of Lancaster - a delay - more than 2 hours then a reversal back through Carnforth to Hellifield - then down to Clitheroe-Blackburn-Preston. At Preston a further delay more than 2 hours. Then to Birmingham New Street where we were told to get off the train and cross over to another service to Bristol Temple Meads. The tickes were checked and when we arrived at Bristol there was an announcement for passengers to Penzance to make themselves known. There were two of us! We were put on a train to Reading and told to pick up the sleeper to Penzance there! Fortunately at Reading we were expected - put into a first class sleeper and nothing more said. Arrived home more than 12 hours late. Stares silence and disbelief from the lady - remember no mobiles/internet in those days. 10/15 minute wait in Plymouth/Bristol/Birmingham anyone?

Would that happen in these days? Certainly not. we'd be dumped at New Street and told to wait for the first XC service to Penzance in the morning - even if we'd have been allowed to divert Carnforth-Blackburn.

 

[TEW]

To upgrade the up line to the standard of the down line would require the installation of track circuits to the point where you wish to install a new signal, you'd then have to install the signal and then modify the signalling equipment at Roskear Junction signal box to control the new signal. The costs do start to add up.